Results 1 to 22 of 22
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0

    Detection - is it air or R410A?



    I have air2water heat pump, the refrigerant is R410A. Time-to-time I have to deflate gas from radiators.
    How to determine, is this gas air or R410A?
    Diffusion of small quantities of the R410A through refrigerant-water brazed plate heat exchanger - is it possible? Is it normal?



  2. #2
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    It may be possible but to be honest I would expect a refrigerant leak to be consistent. If it is leaking then it will continue to leak until the refrigerant is gone.

    You are more likely to have a small air leak on the water side. Check valve stems and the inlet side of the pump.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Merate (LC) - Italy
    Age
    52
    Posts
    2,554
    Rep Power
    24

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    If it was R410, then in the condenser you shall find a small amount of moisture, and the sight glass tending to turn to yellow, even if the pressure of R410 is significantly higher than the water.

  4. #4
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by NoNickName View Post
    If it was R410, then in the condenser you shall find a small amount of moisture, and the sight glass tending to turn to yellow, even if the pressure of R410 is significantly higher than the water.
    That's assuming that he a sight glass fitted NNN, this is ahome conversion I believe.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,326
    Rep Power
    25

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    stalker,

    I would like to ask a question to just clear up a few things on your description.

    If the heat pump is air/water, I'm assuming the radiators contain water for the heating. Is that right?

    If that is correct, the gas you are bleeding out is probably air. This is fairly common in water systems. The air is coming out of the water as the water circulates. If the air is not bled out, the air causes the radiator to gas bind and loose heating.

    After bleeding out the air, does the radiator start to work again?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New Berlin, Wisconsin, USA
    Age
    65
    Posts
    57
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Correct Iceman, on large boilers they have deaerator tanks that remove air (oxygen) from the makeup water before it enters the boiler. The tank heats the water to just the boiling point and drives out the air, there is usually a bleed line that allows the air to escape. So with out a deaerator, the water that is put into his system deaerates itself as time goes on.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,058
    Rep Power
    24

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    You may be dragging air in through the vent pipe, also corrosion in the pipes will produce gassing, usually hydrogen mixture.
    This is well known in water central heatring sysyems and chemical inhibitors are available to cure it.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    New Berlin, Wisconsin, USA
    Age
    65
    Posts
    57
    Rep Power
    18

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    More than likely it is air or as argus said a hydrogen mixture. To check for sure, use a electronic refrigerant leak detector to check the gas as it is bleed out, if the leak detector shows a positive you have a refrigerant leak.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,847
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalker View Post
    I have air2water heat pump, the refrigerant is R410A. Time-to-time I have to deflate gas from radiators.
    How to determine, is this gas air or R410A?
    Diffusion of small quantities of the R410A through refrigerant-water brazed plate heat exchanger - is it possible? Is it normal?
    Normal radiators do need bleeding from time to time so it is normal. I do not think you have a problem with gas leaking into the water because thee is not that much gas in your heat pump. If it was gas and the radiator side was sealed then you would over pressurise the systems and cause a failure on that side.
    It sounds normal to me

    Cheers taz.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    My system has no sight glass.

    Yes, bleeding radiators is normal, but it seems that the radiators need more bleeding than previous times I fill system with water and have no refrigerant2water heat exchanger in the system yet. May be it just seems..

    I have no electronic refrigerant leak detector. Probably R410A doesn't smell?

    What amont of R410A gas in normal pressure and normal temperature has the ordinary HVAC system? Not small amount I think.

    The amont of the bleeding gas (air or air and R410A mixture) isn't big - the system has pressure change compensation tank and the pressure doesn't drop when bleeding.

  11. #11
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalker View Post
    My system has no sight glass.

    Yes, bleeding radiators is normal, but it seems that the radiators need more bleeding than previous times I fill system with water and have no refrigerant2water heat exchanger in the system yet. May be it just seems..
    ...............................
    If you do NOT have a heat exchanger in line yet then how do you expect the refrigerant to get into the water side ?
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,058
    Rep Power
    24

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    .

    Time to call in an expert.

    .

  13. #13
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argus View Post
    .

    Time to call in an expert.

    .
    Oh, that was a long, long time ago
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian_UK View Post
    If you do NOT have a heat exchanger in line yet then how do you expect the refrigerant to get into the water side ?
    Sry, my English isn't the best one:
    When I HAD no *****2water heat exchanger in the system yet. I had electrical heater and solid fuel boiler and have them still as reserv heaters in the system, because heat pump doesn't work, when outside temperature is too low.

    I hoped, you are experts who you are in this phorum..

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,847
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalker View Post
    My system has no sight glass.

    leak detector. Probably R410A doesn't smell?

    What amont of R410A gas in normal pressure and normal temperature has the ordinary HVAC system? Not small amount I think.

    The amont of the bleeding gas (air or air and R410A mixture) isn't big - the system has pressure change compensation tank and the pressure doesn't drop when bleeding.

    Refrigerant does not smell, oil in it does but you will not smell it in your water. I doubt you have a leak to the water.
    I do not know what size your heat pump is but I do not not think it would hold much more than 1 or 2 kg of refrigerant.

    taz.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Moscow
    Posts
    20
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    I think there is probability leak through heatexchanger and it higher than in systems with R22 because
    systems on R410a have higher work pressure
    Unfortunately
    If so then dayafterday you chiller will stop with failure "low pressure" or something in this sort
    If no....all good

  17. #17
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Going back to the original question....

    Quote Originally Posted by stalker View Post
    I have air2water heat pump, the refrigerant is R410A. Time-to-time I have to deflate gas from radiators.
    How to determine, is this gas air or R410A?
    To test the vented air/gas use an electronic refrigerant leak detector. If you haven't got one then find someone who has.

    Diffusion of small quantities of the R410A through refrigerant-water brazed plate heat exchanger - is it possible? Is it normal?
    Is it possible ? YES.

    Is it normal ? NO.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Estonia
    Posts
    10
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Detector showed no leakage.
    Probably the reason is that when I used solid fuel boiler, the air issued partly through the automatic ventilation system of the boiler ring. Now all the air issues through the radiators.

  19. #19
    Brian_UK's Avatar
    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Dorset
    Age
    76
    Posts
    11,192
    Rep Power
    60

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Thanks for the update Stalker.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    78
    Posts
    5,072
    Rep Power
    34

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Quote Originally Posted by stalker View Post
    Detector showed no leakage.
    Probably the reason is that when I used solid fuel boiler, the air issued partly through the automatic ventilation system of the boiler ring. Now all the air issues through the radiators.
    You may have insufficient cold fill pressure, allowing air to enter through the automatic ventilation system when the water is cold. Proper cold fill pressure depends upon the vertical height of the water system.

    Measure the height of the system (in feet) and divide by 2. This gives you sufficient cold fill pressure (in psi). For example, if the height of the system is 50 feet, the cold fill pressure should be 25psi.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,479
    Rep Power
    45

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    Stalker,
    I fully agree with the other posts but let me expand on why.

    Your plate heat exchanger are where the pressure in the refrigeration system is the highest, even a small leak there will rapidly empty the gas out of your system.

    So, if there were a leak your question wouldn't be "is it R410A coming from my radiator" but instead "Why isn't my heat-pump warming the water as it used to?"

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Brisbane
    Age
    71
    Posts
    48
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Detection - is it air or R410A?

    I would suggest the reason for the high number of "air leakages" may be due to the design of the pipe work which does not allow the air to vent through the autovents and traps in the radiators. Make sure there is sufficient head from the makeup tank and check the pipe loop and position of autovents.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •