Do Should we install units customer has brought off ebay?

[Daikin=Overated]

Well it wasn't the split plugged into the wall that caused the fire!
If you wanted to, you could put a 10kw inverter on a 13a plug. With an average 10a start current and a FLC of about 10a. Why not?
Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

Who knows....I'm not a fire investigator but I'd say a stuck relay on the compressor side of things and ultimately failure of the protective device somewhere along the line most likely killed them. God rest there soles.

Maybe the installer failed to check the supply circuit to ensure it had it's own suitably rated MCB, maybe he put it on a spur via the 20 or 30 amp ring main and the split tried pulling 20-30 amps of fault current through a 1.5core cable, intern fusing the live pin and causing a fire-could have been many things to be fair, but the plug was found to be the source of the fire I do recall as they have been in sooooooooo many incidents alike. Or maybe it's coincidence.

3 pin plugs get really toastie when underload let alone nearing overload, especially if fitted with an incorrect fuse size, and undersized cabling.

Remove the plug and touch the live pin next time you plug in a portable cooler or similar for 20mins let alone 24 hrs that those non the wiser do over the summer and you'll appreciate how vulnerable plugs are. Then do the same with the 10KW inverter.

[mick2me]

Who knows....I'm not a fire investigator but I'd say a stuck relay on the compressor side of things and ultimately failure of the protective device somewhere along the line most likely killed them. God rest there soles.

Well as an electrician in a former life, and currently a CSI,
and a certifed Fire Investigator, I would be interested in
hearing about the above case?
(It would be the first time in this forum, that I would
actually be qualified to comment)

There are still hundreds of units of various levels
of quality, being soled, sorry sold on eBay. Where
are they all going? Who's installing them?

Talking about Quality, one of these eBay buyers rings
you up and says they bough a nice cheap NETT, R22
unit. (from whatever source), put the plug on it ready,
and mounted the outside units with some number 10
scews and rawlplugs, Will you do the fridge side?
Of course you wont.

He tells you he bought a Daikin, wired it to the regs,
and mounted it securly, will you pipe it and gas it for
him. I am sure you will be happier. At the end of the
day, its your choice.

He's done the donkey work for you, you do the
specialised work you trained for. A bit like a bricklayer
and labourer, if you like.

Do corgi gas fitters argue about wether they should
fit ovens and combi boilers that they did not supply,
and worry about, the manufacturer contacting them,
when it breaks down?

[mick2me]

3 pin plugs get really toastie when underload let alone nearing overload, especially if fitted with an incorrect fuse size, and undersized cabling.

A 13a plug top in the uk should cope adequately with quite an excess of the load for which it is designed to carry. But the close protection of the cartridge fuse will cause it to fail on overload before damage can occur to the plug.

Overheating in my experience is usually caused by bad contacts or connections within the plug top. the weakness in the UK plug top design is the connection on the cartridge fuse, which relies on the spring contact with the fuse to make the electrical circuit. Often heat damage can be seen in this area when the plug top carries a high load for extended periods of time. If the current draw is not in excess of the rated fuse it will not fail under these conditions.

If its only the live pin that gets warm, suspect a poor connection on the live pin. In the case of a long term high load, both pins may get equally warm, but the plug design should dissipate the heat, as it is designed to carry in excess of 13amps.

In the case of undersized cable being used, the whole cable will warm up, particularly if coiled.

[frank]

Well it wasn't the split plugged into the wall that caused the fire!
If you wanted to, you could put a 10kw inverter on a 13a plug. With an average 10a start current and a FLC of about 10a. Why not?
Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

From memory, I'll check if required, BS7671 does not allow 13amp plug tops to be used for Fixed Equipment. Split type A/C is classed as Fixed Equipment.

[Jimbo!]

I don't understand that reg - because it also increases the fault disconnection time from 0.4s to 4s.

[frank]

I don't understand that reg - because it also increases the fault disconnection time from 0.4s to 4s.

How so Jimbo?
Surely, the fault disconnection time is determined by the type of MCB/RCD - not by how the unit is connected?

[Jimbo!]

permissable disconnection time, I meant.

[eggs]

Forget about tripping RCD's, 16th edition and building regs for a moment and tell me why (electricaly) a unit that uses less power than a 3kw electric kettle can not have a plug on??

Eggs

Frank, please re-read.

Eggs

[frank]

I hear what you are saying Eggs.
Electrically speaking, a 13amp plugtop fuse should be able to handle upto a 3kw load at mains voltage.
The problem comes when you go into a customers premises and carry out work that does not comply with BS7671.
Although it is not yet included on the Statute Books and therefore not law in the UK, if anyone was electrocuted from one of your installations and died, there is no defense in law. You will be charged with manslaughter.
If you can prove that your installation complied with BS7671 at least you have a defense in law should anything untoward happen.
Hence, this is why people design and install to meet the requirements of BS7671

[nike123]

Here in Croatia, we have lots of cheap Chinese aircon (250-300 pounds) which you buy in hypermarkets. When summer cames, there is huge increase in demand for this crap and teams of "split type airconditioner fitters" (mostly two guys with some basic tools and without vacuum pumps etc. and old VW Passat caravan) are rising as mushrooms after rain. They work only 2,5-3.5 kW splits, no service, no guarantee, mostly up to 2 meters of pipe length. One team mount up to 300 units in short time (2-3 month) and, after summer season, they end up with at least 30 pound each in pocket for every split instalation(1 instalation is charged about 90-110 pounds material included). That is 9000-12000 pounds tax free. That is also 2 year salary for skilled worker here.
Now you see that your dilemma is pointless. Whenever you got good opportunity to make good money go for it, because someone else will do that instead of you.

[Jimbo!]

everyones money is just as good

[markacs]

i had a customer that decided that he will buy a new compressor for a split unit and ask me to install it for him to save me the hassle.
this bit him back badly!!!!!!
he is not known to the suppliers.we buy loads of goods and get trade discount!
the price that he paid for the compressor was 30% more than i would of sold it to him for with our 35% mark up.
life is tough if you are an idiot

[Grizzly]

Of course a car will leak....It is designed to.. Anyone who tells me that a major car manufacturer is not designing a car to leak when they secure aluminium components with steel clips and brackets in an area where ingress of salt water is to be expected is clearly on planet Zog..

Far too many of these new regulations are invented by ex middle managers who simply wish to make a living off the back of folk who actually work for a living and I for one am on the verge of rebelling.. In the last few months I have had to attend a course so that I can comply with Part L of the building regs.. So I now know to fit a heating system with TRVs, timer and roomstat... £180+ VAT plus a day off work, a course on flue gas analysers, so I now know where to stick my probe.. Clearly I am incapable of reading the manufacturers instructions.. £180+VAT plus a day off work and am just about to embark on an upgrade course to the 17th edition of the wiring regs.. another £120 odd quid plus exam fee.. THEN I must then register with someone who will check my work at random times... If I didn't bother with all of this crap, then no one would know, no one would care and the chances of being pulled up would be almost Zero.. Does anyone know of any illegal sparky who has been punished..or even warned? NO 'cos the powers that be are all too busy making sure that the professionals have their paperwork just so and are too busy counting their fees for doing Jack Rant over!

Karl
You may have raised some good and valid points there? Even if they may not be politically correct.
I like many others have gone with the "Flow" Complying with the steady stream of Certificates / requirements needed.
Innocently thinking that it is for the good of us all!
Sadly the Stream is now becoming a torrent. But the real problem is I am now being expected to get even more to just stand still. "YOU NEED IT!" They say.
WILL I GET A PAY RISE ONCE I HAVE IT?
I don't think so.
It is all getting very interesting and I feel the 2 teir system is here for a long time yet.
I suspect we all will comply eventually. But I don't expect there to be a rush to do so. Why would you?
OK if your Company is going to pay you do it.
It is getting difficult to swim through it all though isn't it.
Another thing that seems to be happening here in UK.
Is the work is becoming more varied and less specific. We used to specialise in Industrial & Chillers.
Now I am just as likely to look at say a bottle chiller.
For me that's one of the reasons why this forum is so important.
Cheers Grizzly

[mick2me]

i had a customer that decided that he will buy a new compressor for a split unit and ask me to install it for him to save me the hassle.
this bit him back badly!!!!!!
he is not known to the suppliers.we buy loads of goods and get trade discount!
the price that he paid for the compressor was 30% more than i would of sold it to him for with our 35% mark up.
life is tough if you are an idiot

Hello Mark.

I see nothing changes around the world.
In England we have a saying (perhaps elswhere too)?
"Theres one born every minute"
(one = idiot/sucker etc.)

If were talking about eBay, its not unusual to see
people buying and paying more than retail price.

Though this thread has developed also into discussions about UK Regs, an important subject in itself. Could do with the topic splitiing?
Mr. Moderator?......Wheres that Daikin Guy?

[frank]

Mr. Moderator?......Wheres that Daikin Guy?

More than likely he's in the PUB Mick

[Karl Hofmann]

Karl
You may have raised some good and valid points there? Even if they may not be politically correct.
I like many others have gone with the "Flow" Complying with the steady stream of Certificates / requirements needed.
Innocently thinking that it is for the good of us all!
Sadly the Stream is now becoming a torrent. But the real problem is I am now being expected to get even more to just stand still. "YOU NEED IT!" They say.
WILL I GET A PAY RISE ONCE I HAVE IT?
I don't think so.
It is all getting very interesting and I feel the 2 teir system is here for a long time yet.
I suspect we all will comply eventually. But I don't expect there to be a rush to do so. Why would you?
OK if your Company is going to pay you do it.
It is getting difficult to swim through it all though isn't it.
Another thing that seems to be happening here in UK.
Is the work is becoming more varied and less specific. We used to specialise in Industrial & Chillers.
Now I am just as likely to look at say a bottle chiller.
For me that's one of the reasons why this forum is so important.
Cheers Grizzly

Ha! Grizzly... I'm afraid that I have also given up on going with the flow on being politically correct.. It is a disgusting "Lets not hurt anyones feelings" import from our long suffering cousins from across the pond... If I see stupidity then I will say so..Similarly I would expect someone to tell me if I was being a fool... PC ends here!!!
The only thing that the customer is interested in is the bottom line, a while ago I was invited to quote for ac at a group of Accountants who have their offices next door to my pals office.. Naturally I quoted for decent quality Tosh, fitted correctly and the electrics done by a local contractor since they were keen to have certificates and they stressed that they wanted a quality job.. It cheeses me off every time I drive past those offices because although the units are OK (Samsung) the pipework and cables simply run from the units to the sofit board with no support what so ever and no effort has been made to even make them straight..The pipes just dangle and move in the breeze...So that is quality eh? I have striven over the years to always do the next job just a little bit better than the last, have kept up with legislation and all required certification but this has confirmed to me that this is a total and complete waste of time.. the cowboys will screw you every time so although we may go to a customer all smug with an arm full of certificates, qualifications and ability, the crooks will win every time.. I will continue to do small ac work if I am asked by a customer and will also do a little automotive work on my drive but will now no longer actively pursue it as there is better money to be earned from my CORGI registration