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    Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure



    HAVE NOTICED THE LUBE OIL PRESSURE DIFFERENTIAL DECREASING AND THE ONLY WAY CAN KEEP BARELY ABOVE ALARM STATUS IS BY LOWERING THE DISCHARGE PRESSURE. REPLACED THE LUBE OIL PUMP AND IT MAKES GOOD OIL PRESSURE BUT ONCE SYSTEM IS ONLINE AND DISCHARGE PRESSURE INCREASES THE DIFFERENTIAL GOES DOWN. HOWDEN TWIN SCREW MKIKSWRV16380361774. WITH R-134A REFRIGERANT. ALSO WONDERING, IS THIS A STANDARD COMPRESSOR OR A "h" COMPRESSOR AND WHAT THE OIL PRESSURE DELTA SHOULD BE. TKS



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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    This is usually happen when sleeve bearings are worn out.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Standard compressor 30psi "H" 45psi.
    Pretty sure yours is standard as no "H" in details given. It is for higher pressure rating, so doubt used for 134a.
    Guessing it only has oil to bearings & no oil injection into rotors due to 134a cool.
    If it does have oil injection, it may be checked as oil injection can consume a lot of oil.
    Can you give us running pressures & oil & discharge temperatures.
    Also what is oil pressure & trip pressure setting.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Also, please NO SHOUTING, lower case is favourite.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    I was aware of the 30 / 45 oil delta; thanks. That is why I was questioning rather the compressor was a "H" or not. If going by the model number then I say no it isn't an "H". I though it was to maintain at least that 30 psid and shutdown at 12 psid. , being the lowest they (Howden) says they would go. I've been trying to find literature and diagrams on the oil part but no luck. By oil injection I'm going to say yes. It has 3 lines going to the compressor. One on each end which I'm pretty sure is for the bearings, and one in between those (like in the middle/side of the compressor). So I'm assuming that is the oil injection. All of these are 1/2" lines. It does have a valve on that line but no gauge in between it and the compressor so if I start to pinch off on that line I will have no clue what the oil injection pressure is. I think the pressures were 34 psig suction (14 deg. f sh), DX chiller, discharge pressure 150 psig and lube oil pressure 181. The equipment use to run with a 160 discharge pressure but the low oil pressure diff kept shutting it down, so the discharge pressure is now set at 150 psig. It was easy to lean towards a oil pump going out due to the gradual decrease in lube oil pressure over the year, and that is why it was replaced. But now I'm beginning to think some bearing wear, but the oil analysis (which is done on a quarterly basis), always comes back good. The oil injection part.....isn't that port on the compressor going to the rotors? And without a gauge in between, how much can I pinch it off? If that does raise the psid, then why has the psid been decreasing? I do have a question on the oil separator temp being 160 f....which seems high to me at 150 psig (112 f). Would think it should be more like 147 f. Lube oil temp after oil cooler is 129 f. I will try to get discharge temp today.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Correction, discharge temperature 151 f and oil sep 153 f and lube oil 130 ; sorry.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Temperature in Oil sep will be somewhat close to discharge temp, so 160f isn't bad.

    125-135 f after oil cooler is where it should be at.

    Since no one else has asked:

    -Compressor running hours?

    -Oil level?

    -Oil filter differential?

    -Is there a bypass from the oil pump discharge and back to the oil separator (overflow)?


    Worn journal bearings or labyrinth seals can cause the oil pressure to drop as the oil gets warmer after startup, and they won't show much in the oil samples.
    If it's the journal bearings, you might see glittering, like small specks of silver, on the magnet in the oil filter, or if you take a sample into a paper cup and shine a flashlight onto it.

    To adjust the oil injection, it has to be done with the compressor on full load. Throttle the valve until the discharge temp starts rising, then open it slowly again until you have a steady discharge temp.
    Take your time
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    In service since 2013, runs most of the time. Hardly any drop across oil filter. Oil level in separator 40 to 50 %. Oil dp use to be 40 plus, but has gradually decreased and now at 30 to 32 psid. But to maintain that the discharge pressure setpoint was lowered from 160 psig to 150 psig. LOPD alarm set at 28 psid. I did slowly close off the bypass to see if there was any overflow and no change in pump pressure. Last oil sample had a small amount of ferrous wear like the previous samples (8 to 11 ppm). Probably going to suggest a compressor inspection (or rebuild) which HOWDEN recommends after 4 years (not my specialty)!

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    what oïl viscosity is used? Iso 220?

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by PLEH2EREH View Post
    In service since 2013, runs most of the time. Hardly any drop across oil filter. Oil level in separator 40 to 50 %. Oil dp use to be 40 plus, but has gradually decreased and now at 30 to 32 psid. But to maintain that the discharge pressure setpoint was lowered from 160 psig to 150 psig. LOPD alarm set at 28 psid. I did slowly close off the bypass to see if there was any overflow and no change in pump pressure. Last oil sample had a small amount of ferrous wear like the previous samples (8 to 11 ppm). Probably going to suggest a compressor inspection (or rebuild) which HOWDEN recommends after 4 years (not my specialty)!
    Any chance of a few pictures of compressor nameplate, oil going into compressor & oil pump?

    LOPD is it just an alarm? or do you mean compressor stops on this.

    Has oil temperature always been 130F?
    Is oil cooler water cooled, has it been serviced, cleaned etc.

    Is there any other relief valves in oil system after pump?

    Has anything else changed over the last year, like problem started after a service like oil change or production change?

    As Tycho instructs, says close oil injection a bit & problem will be probably solved.
    See what it's set at first, then make adjustment.
    I don't think it even needs it, not sure on 163, but all other WRV is injected under shaft seal area.

    8-11 ppm iron is nothing as long as it stays at similar reading over time.
    Ok something has changed but LOPD to high weather it's alarm or trip, can you adjust it down
    it's still very safe.
    Last edited by RANGER1; 08-11-2017 at 11:18 PM.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Ok, I began pinching back on the oil injection and monitoring the discharge temp.....slowly.... and yes delta started improving. I got a feeling someone thought "all" hand valves on the skid should be wide open, which in most cases I guess is true. Anyway, will let it run overnight and check again in morning. I appreciate the help and advice from all you, especially you Tyco. I will repost when done.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by PLEH2EREH View Post
    Ok, I began pinching back on the oil injection and monitoring the discharge temp.....slowly.... and yes delta started improving. I got a feeling someone thought "all" hand valves on the skid should be wide open, which in most cases I guess is true. Anyway, will let it run overnight and check again in morning. I appreciate the help and advice from all you, especially you Tyco. I will repost when done.
    Maybe I won't bother asking questions anymore

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Especially to you

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Hey Ranger1, I appreciate you too! I didn't say the problem was fixed, I just said it was improving. I appreciate anyone on this site that offers their help to those of us that need it. The world would be a better place if everyone would help each other. Sorry if I hurt your feelings; I by no means meant to. That is why I hate text messaging. People sometimes misinterpret the message.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    I don't have the papers here, but major overhaul is at 50.000 running hours.

    Thurst bearing check/replacement is at 20.000

    Recommended services: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-P...gJUVgSzIUkn5oh
    Last edited by Tycho; 09-11-2017 at 04:21 PM.
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by RANGER1 View Post
    Any chance of a few pictures of compressor nameplate, oil going into compressor & oil pump?

    LOPD is it just an alarm? or do you mean compressor stops on this.

    Has oil temperature always been 130F?
    Is oil cooler water cooled, has it been serviced, cleaned etc.

    Is there any other relief valves in oil system after pump?

    Has anything else changed over the last year, like problem started after a service like oil change or production change?

    As Tycho instructs, says close oil injection a bit & problem will be probably solved.
    See what it's set at first, then make adjustment.
    I don't think it even needs it, not sure on 163, but all other WRV is injected under shaft seal area.

    8-11 ppm iron is nothing as long as it stays at similar reading over time.
    Ok something has changed but LOPD to high weather it's alarm or trip, can you adjust it down
    it's still very safe.
    PLEH2EREH: Since you said the oil dP has gradually decreased over time, it suggest that there might be underlying reasons other than the oil injection being full open.
    if someone had opened them one day, you would have noticed an immediate and sudden drop.

    I'd also like to have answered the questions Ranger asked, because I have had similar issues and have had great help from Ranger.

    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ain&highlight=

    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...oes&highlight=
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    PLEH2EREH, is this the same compressor you asked about in an earlier post, that has liquid injection for oil cooling, or is it a different one?

    if it has liquid injection, close the oil injection that goes into the side of the compressor completely... It should get enough oil from the connection in the shaft seal area like Ranger says (though personally I nudge the oil injection open 1/2 turn, just to be generous)
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by PLEH2EREH View Post
    Correction, discharge temperature 151 f and oil sep 153 f and lube oil 130 ; sorry.
    Absolute limits from Howden (alarm/shut down) are:
    Discharge: 220F (105C)
    Oil to compressor: 158F (70C)

    Critical temperature of R134a is 213.9F (101C), so you have some wiggle room there if you have to throttle more on the oil injection to maintain oil pressure
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Lube oil temperature after water cooled oil cooler has averaged 128 f for very long time. Lube oil pressure after pump has decreased over that same period of time. The lube oil pressure differential alarm is set at 28 psi. with shutdown at 20 psi. No liquid injection (another compressor yes). Not sure what your talking about on the oil injection under the shaft seal area. All I know is where it is piped up to, which is near the middle section of the compressor, opposite side of the economizer port (not being used). The hand valve for the oil injection was wide open so I just gradually closed it and monitored discharge temperature. That did help increase the differential to get them above the alarm. However, the discharge pressure control set-point is still 150 psig unlike what it use to be set at, 160 psig. I have yet to raise it to see the result. The delta across the oil filter is less than 1 psi. The oil pressure at the oil pump outlet is almost the same as after oil filter (less than 1 psi.). Here are the current reading this morning: Lube Oil Pressure 185 Discharge Pressure 148 Discharge Temp 152 f, Oil Separator Temp 153 f, Lube Oil Temp 130 f. Suction Pressure 34 psig, Suction Temp. 49 f. Slide Valve 20%. And here is something weird, the manual that the factory tech left on startup (4 years ago) list the discharge pressure to be at 205 psig.....never figured that one out . He set it at 160 psig and that is where it had been since. I did forget to mention this system uses dual TXV's chilling glycol/water mixture. Going back in history it looks like the system use to run at a higher discharge temperature, but it was also running a higher discharge temp. (160 psig and 165 f.) The oil cooler has never been cleaned (cooling tower water) but have never had oil temperature issues. It also uses a AMOT valve to help control oil temp. The are no other relief valves in the oil system, other than to the atmosphere for over pressure protection. The only thing I haven't tried is to adjust the pressure regulator on the new oil pump. I did try to adjust it on the original pump but nothing changed, and that is why the pump got replaced (like for like). Anyway, they are happy that it is running and no alarms popping up. Probably increase the discharge pressure slowly back to 160 psig and see what happens. Hope I answered all your questions!

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Sorry on tender hooks, just had kidney stone removed from up private parts entry.
    Have to go back in 2 weeks to do it all over again.
    I think of course adjust oil pump pressure to see where it regulates.
    I think oil cooler should be cleaned annually or expect problems when you don't want (preventative maintenance).
    Oil cooler by the way would be very small as not much load at all, probably less than 10kw.
    Machine like this should run 50 to 100,000 if looked after, not saying you should though.
    If WRV & oil injected in rotor casing, its as Tycho says, adjustment if you want.
    I would like to see picture, as to avoid us telling you the wrong things.

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Hope I answered all your questions! no, what is the oil used? iso 220

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Link to Howden manual FYI.
    Lot of non relevant stuff at the beginning, but manual in later section.

    http://www.emersonclimate.com/Docume...91RG-Rev-0.pdf

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Thanks RANGER1. The oil in use is LULUBE 1220. I was looking over that manual you posted. Section 6 troubleshooting 6-1 'Low Run Oil Pressure" states "Oil pressure is manifold pressure minus the suction pressure". Thought it was Manifold pressure minus Discharge Pressure for screws?

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    Re: Howden wrv163 lube oil pressure

    Quote Originally Posted by PLEH2EREH View Post
    Thanks RANGER1. The oil in use is LULUBE 1220. I was looking over that manual you posted. Section 6 troubleshooting 6-1 'Low Run Oil Pressure" states "Oil pressure is manifold pressure minus the suction pressure". Thought it was Manifold pressure minus Discharge Pressure for screws?
    I think that must be a "typo", on the WRV range it's manifold pressure minus discharge pressure like you say

    Ranger, i took the liberty of adding that manual to my shared folder with Howden manuals
    https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3...UR4Qk1Yd1FSUjA
    -Cheers-

    Tycho

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