Maintence of hermetic compressors

[Harry Trafford]

Long story short, i serviced a unit (puh-4yksa) 2weeks ago and on monday got a call and found the compressor to be locked and tripping mcb... Could i have seen this comming as i have a very un-happy client...

[Brian_UK]

Depends what you did during your service?

[monkey spanners]

They can fail like light bulbs, sometimes there is no knowing.

Few years back i installed a new milk cooler, was there the next day and heard the old ones compressor running, it got a bit slower and slower then HUMMMMMM and silence. Had been running fine to then!

[Harry Trafford]

Done filters,coils,drains,refrigerant charge, check controls, check functions, off coil temp..... What im asking is, if i put a multimeter on to check amps would the compressor being drawing more amps then normal. Or do they just stop????

[install monkey]

if the pot was siezing up then you might have noticed increased running current, but might only recognise that if you had previously normal running current (from a previous service)
the r22 mitsi was out in 1996- so its old, the only protection they have is phase loss, reverse phase and the overload on the contactor, a pitted contactor could cause failure, they also run hot around 80deg, so chances are its circumstantial that you could have predicted the failure

[Rob White]

Done filters,coils,drains,refrigerant charge, check controls, check functions, off coil temp..... What im asking is, if i put a multimeter on to check amps would the compressor being drawing more amps then normal. Or do they just stop????

How did you check the refrigerant charge?

Rob

.

[Harry Trafford]

Sorry rob badly worded, checked operating pressure. Giving indication that unit has adequate refrigerant charge. Using gauges.

[Rob White]

.

Experience has shown me that Sods law will kick
in at just the wrong moment. Of all the times when
that compressor could fail, just after your visit is
not the best.

Customer does not understand, so obviously it is
your fault because it was alright until you arrived.

Luck of the draw and just explain that it is one of those things.

Rob

.

[r.bartlett]

i serviced a unit (puh-4yksa) 2weeks ago

Sorry rob badly worded, checked operating pressure. Giving indication that unit has adequate refrigerant charge. Using gauges.

just seen it's R22 ..Guess what that means..

[Grizzly]

just seen it's R22 ..Guess what that means..

If these checks with gauges were done as Harry says 2 weeks ago then that is Illegal even in Ireland.
Your a brave man to admit that on this forum Harry.
The unit is untouchable and basically scrap.
Over to you Harry!
Grizzly

[hookster]

Regulations do not prohibit the use of R22 equipment even after the deadline. I would actually argue that still using gauges etc to document operating conditions is less detrimental to the environment than waiting for the complete system leakage to occur.

[Brian_UK]

Regulations do not prohibit the use of R22 equipment even after the deadline. I would actually argue that still using gauges etc to document operating conditions is less detrimental to the environment than waiting for the complete system leakage to occur.

If the gauges are permanent fixtures then yes you could be correct. However as the law stands you may not fit service gauges unless you are removing the refrigerant charge.

[al]

EPA guidelines are a little vague on this fitting of gauges, initially we were told only time to fit gauges was if refrigerant was being pulled out, a later briefing from them (verbal) indicated a grey area if the engineer expressed safety concerns with the system, in that instance apparently it may be ok, obviously would need confirmation from them, my own pov is if gauges need fitting then system is heading for replacement anyway.

[Grizzly]

Hi All.
It may or may not eventually transpire that "we" can fit gauges to a R22 system.

But the rules have now changed and when do they become fact?

Irrespective of the system years and years this R22 phase-out has been progressing.

Trying to prolong the inevitable does no-one any good.

Yes keeping a perfectly good working system makes sense short term.
But being practical when do "You" draw the line? There are some very good large R22 systems still operational. But they are a ticking financial time bomb all the same!
And Yes some on here will bend the rules to suit their argument me included, especially when I did not agree in the first place with the end result.
It is difficult not to try and keep things going for customers, but sometimes we all have to Wake up and Smell the Roses!
Harry has a real dilemma a warranty can be offered on up to-date and compliant equipment but an aged R22 system?
Maybe that's your get out clause Harry?
Grizzly

[r.bartlett]

Regulations do not prohibit the use of R22 equipment even after the deadline. I would actually argue that still using gauges etc to document operating conditions is less detrimental to the environment than waiting for the complete system leakage to occur.

You can try arguing with the judge but as the law stands:

From 1st January 2015 it will be illegal to use any HCFCs to service RAC equipment– so recycled or reclaimed HCFC may no longer be used. See Section 5 below formore details.The ban on the use of virgin HCFC gases represents a very real business threat to anycompany which uses refrigerants like R22 or R408A in their processes or air conditioningsystems. R22 remains one of the most commonly used refrigerants in the UK so manyorganisations are going to be affected by the ban. Sectors at greatest risk include the foodand drink industry, petro-chemicals, pharmaceuticals, health, retail, hospitality, finance anddata-processing. Typical applications can vary widely, but examples include refrigerationsystems in supermarkets, blast chillers, cold stores and process coolers and many typesof building air-conditioning as well as in transport refrigeration. Many of these applicationsare absolutely critical to the continued operation of their owner’s business.It should be noted that the bans described above refer to the “use” of HCFCs. In terms ofconsidering what action needs to be taken it should be noted that ‘use’ in relation toequipment containing HCFCs means -

“the utilisation of controlled substances in the production or maintenance, in particular
refilling, of products or equipment’’
This means that it is permissible to carry on using equipment that contains HCFCs beyond
the phase-out dates, but there must be no maintenance or servicing undertaken on the
equipment that involves breaking into the refrigerant circuits.

I am slightly surprised service engineers and trade folk are still unaware of the law and how it affects them and their customers.We have been talking about this for years...

Our 'arry is up for a *charge

* pun intended
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...-phase-out.pdf

[Grizzly]

I am slightly surprised service engineers and trade folk are still unaware of the law and how it affects them and their customers.We have been talking about this for years...

You and Me both RB.
Thanks for the clarification all the same, not for my benefit because that is the stance "We" are taking within our company.
However some wish to continue despite the huge amount of time people have known about this Ban.

[Kompulsa]

I know this isn't easy, but it might be helpful to keep in mind: I would recommend analyzing systems extra carefully and if they look worn, I would tell customers before leaving so they won't automatically blame you.

[chilliwilly]

Digressing slightly.

Two years ago I condemned a williams cabinet with a remote/external condensor that was at least 23 years old, because most of the charge had leaked out and the compressor although still running was like an oven. I also noticed that the cap had been removed and had been recently converted to an XV slightly frosting and a reciever fitted on the condensor unit.

I made the owner of the kit aware that it still contained R12 as a refrigerant which had not been in use for some years now, and was certainly beyond economical repair and function and idealy needed replacing with new.

I priced to fully decommission it and have it scrapped, but they never got back to me.

Guess what... they phoned me on Christmas eve to ask me to come and service it as it wasn't cooling and they couldn't get in touch with the firm that have been out to repair it about several times over the past 2 years!

[install monkey]

to clarify then - if i had a r22 system thats been degassed years ago and recharged with isceon 59 then its ok to stick gauges on it .

[Grizzly]

But I thought 59 had gone the same route?
Grizzly

[install monkey]

isceon 59 (r417a) is hfc not hcfc!-my theory is "im in the clear your honor"

[monkey spanners]

to clarify then - if i had a r22 system thats been degassed years ago and recharged with isceon 59 then its ok to stick gauges on it .

Yeah, its ok, its now a R59 system.

[bigspee]

opened up a can of worms here