Bye-Bye R507, R410 and Others

[PRESS]

http://m.contractingbusiness.com/sit...eet_070714.pdf

The article on the link above changes the future of our trade. Who thought that these refrigerants including R134a would ever be labeled unacceptable? Is this another reap out ochestrated by the large corporation for them to cash out on retrofits? Where does this leave us as refrigeration engineers? New type of gauges, new pipe types, new tools, new oils, the list is long all to suite the new replacement refrigerants. lets hear your opinions gentlemen of the trade.

[RusBuka]

For mother Russia its a joke for minimum 10-15 years)))

[PRESS]

This global warming story is confusing still. A majority of the scientists will tell you that it is the greatest swindle of all time while others stick to their guns on this cause. who is telling the truth?

[The MG Pony]

The majoirity saying it is fake are in whole funded by oil and con lobies,so that's the hint, the same ones who claim R-12 was harmles and smoking is healthy, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Reality is obvious, the science just fills in the how it is happening part.

[The MG Pony]

As for doom and gloom, I'd push more to use HC's as they are more then compatible with nearly all infastructur all ready built.

[r.bartlett]

The majoirity saying it is fake are in whole funded by oil and con lobies,so that's the hint, the same ones who claim R-12 was harmles and smoking is healthy, and the earth is only 6,000 years old.

Reality is obvious, the science just fills in the how it is happening part.

classic strawman

[PRESS]

The rate at which they are changing these gasses for us is also too frequent. its like change of fashion or car models. conspiracy or no conspiracy on the part of the big corporations and environmental lobbyist have people really embraced these global warming and green house theories? sometimes I think the lobbying is moving at a much faster pace ahead of the rate at which people are embracing the concept.

the same people who not so long ago told us that R12 is bad and said we should embrace R134a are now turning back to say R134a isnt acceptable now. as much as we understand the theory on which these gas changes efforts are derived from it sometimes leaves us wondering and full of questions. what do you think guys?

[Onsyi]

Yes, it's a conspiracy.
Yes, it's extortion of money.
Yes, this pursuit of self-interests of producers of *****.
But what we can do about it? How to deal with it? in no way! We can only adapt.

[The MG Pony]

We can counter act it by demanding hydrocarbons become the main gass, they are fare superior in many ways, but no company can patent them <_< so they are avoided.

[PRESS]

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/fea...r_warming.html

According to another link from NASA above the most important by far greenhouse gas with greenhouse effects which put even CO2's greenhouse effect to shame by a double scale factor is WATER VAPOUR. Imagine at least 3/4 of the world is covered by open oceans which emit greenhouse water vapour continuously. If these gases are being lebelled unacceptale now one must question really how much does refrigeration plant leaks contribute to the global warming as compared to all the other greehouse gasses. Yes, we agree that these gasses of our trade contribute to the greenhouse effect but why is it that they dont tell us the truth that by far more seriously something else which they can not control like water vapour is the largest culprit.

This whole thing smells a big swindle. If new so called replacements come into the market only the big corporations will be making them giving them monopoly rights since they own the patents. We know they dont like the competition from asian manufacturers who make the gas affordable and this is the motive behind this deception. Even if we were to demand hydrocarbons back they will tell you about how flamable they are for an excuse. Are we held at ransome?

[mikeref]

There are similar threads to this one somewhere in the R.E. archives.
I hope this one might bring new "Evidence" to the discussion.

[The MG Pony]

Press read up on feed back cycles.Sadly I am not good enough at wording to translate my years of studying this into words, but co2 is a driver, the rest follows, that is best I can do, as co2 builds it drives captured methane out from deep water hydrated then the feed back cycles start to accelerate each other, then higher temps drive more water to the atmosphere (We are hvac guys we all should know how water vapour behaves in air yes?)

As the temps warm more water is held, the more water is held the more heat is captured.

[PRESS]

http://climatechange.procon.org/

Follow the link above which outlines some of aguments about global warming. Contrary to common belief that global warming is driven by CO2 new study has revealed that solar activity is the one which drives global warming which in turn releases co2 from the oceans. it is the solar activity first then the rest. scientist in the study of climate change have since proven that the amount of co2 emmissions due to human activities contributes a very minute in the thousandth of a % co2 compared to what other sources like volcanic eruptions, decomping forests and the seas produce. nature has always balaced this equation of co2 by plants taking back the co2 for photosynthesis and when sea temperature falls sea water reabsobes the co2.

Scientists in this study are also unfortunately devided into two camps by money from large corporations. Corporations which manufacture "greenhouse compliant" gasses finance study which prooves that we are indeed warming up the globe. on the other hand those corporations like the ones in petroleum industry finance study with the sympathetic view to global warming.

Money plays a major role here. My quams are about why we in the HVAC&R industry are forced to accept these theories and be drawn into other people's fights?

[mikeref]

An age old reasoning is: Never in the history of this planet....has there ever been so many vehicles on the roads, aircraft in the sky, or people on the ground.

As the dominant species, we are responsible for our actions. Unfortunately personal wealth is a dominating desire...whether it be at the expense of others or the existence of flora and fauna.

Edit: I wrote another few lines that would have attracted criticism ...so for now i deleted them.

[MikeHolm]

Guys, GW is happening, full stop.

Everyone is seeing the effects whether you want to say it is man made or not, it is happening.

Most of those who do not believe it fall into two camps, those who profit from the status quo (oil and coal companies.....and us to some extent), and those who (whether they know it or not) are too afraid of understanding the real consequences of our actions, and there is lots of info coming out about how those who cannot handle the truth will find a myriad of ways to explain it away.

Man up and accept it, then do something. I, for one would love to be able to drive my van and my super7 around (and maybe a Cessna in the future) and do all the things I do now but I truly expect that will not be the case.

There are lots of wars about water, food and other resources and it is always increasing. California is pulling out water dependent plants due to long term drought. The US mid west water table that used to be an average of 6" below grade is now 3 ft below grade. Corporations are buying up land with rivers just for future water rights..........you tell me they don't see the writing on the wall.......BS

[joe-ice]

I agree gw is happening but they are quite happy to crucify the low lying fruit like refrigerants instead of going after the real emiters like electricity generation ,auto industry and emerging countries. They bring out restrictions
that cost everyone money and dont make a damn bit of difference to the amount of gas released.

[FreezerGeezer]

I agree that I can't tell how much GW is man induced & how much is natural. Either way, as Mike said we need to plan for it & also do what can be done to keep the planet habitable.
Water is quite possibly going to be the major political issue in the future.
And Joe is right - emission trading schemes & similar can't work as far as my simple mind can see - all they do is move the pollution around a bit?
We really noticed the big end users of refrigerant taking a much more rigorous approach to leaks when the carbon tax sent the price of refrigerant through the roof. Now that's been repealed, it'll be instructive to see if customers become slack again, or not.

[PRESS]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YtevF4B4RtQ

Follow the link above. Thank you all for your contributions to this thread. Governments are even cashing out on this issue by imposing various taxes on refrigerants and compliance issues. Im sure we all agree that global warming is happening. Thats not the question we are debating. One can only be naive if they do not embrace the fact that global warming is happening because the evidence is there everywhere in the melting glaciers and polar regions.

The question is:
1. We have had serious bouts of GW in the past even before the industrial age when populations were even smaller, and scientific evidence shows that it was due to solar activity which is currently taking place now. Should we justfiably say that our refrigerants are the ones responsible for the GW not the solar activity?

2. The current temperature rise is within the average of the previous temperature rise bandwidth of the past GW temperatures, infact we are not near hitting the past record. Why then should we still blame refrigerants if its just universal natural cycle of events reapeating itself?

3. In the wake of all the money and corruption which has riddled this issue in mind bogling proportions, why must the refrigeration industry accept to take the blame for issues which can not be quantified?

[MikeHolm]

PRESS, you only have to go the the comments to see that there is something wrong with this video. First, any proper debate does NOT start with calling your opponent names such as "alarmist" and the name of the video "swindle". It is obviously designed from the start to be political document, not a scientific one.

I would look into the background and see who funded it. It is reasonably well done so there is obviously some production values and money behind it. The only people who have this kind of money are oil, coal and gas barons, and they have a vested interest is pushing contrary theories or at least creating doubt.

Second, no one is blaming refrigerants alone, it is part of the the matrix of chemicals that promotes GW. Your argument depends on accepting the hypothesis that we are in normal set of cycles but even if we are, it is a lot worse than previous ones and a lot faster. Remember that most of these changes took many 100s of years to happen and this is taking decades or less.

Carbon_Dioxide_400kyr.png

616910main_gisstemp_2011_graph_lrg[1].jpg

This one is the short term temp rise. We are not at the peak yet and all the evidence shows that the incline is steep so we can expect it to continue to rise. We still put more CO2 into the atmosphere than we ever have in the past. This process is here to stay, I'm afraid...sun activity or not.

[PRESS]

Well said Mikeholm. Money has corrupted both camps of scientists who run with this issue. I agree with your take on this issue. I also agree with the school of thought that maybe we are not actually causing GW after all. What makes sense is that we should play our part in reducing emission of green house gasses so that our children will inherit a good world to live in. This should be a sensible thing for both schools of thought no mater what side of the debate one subscribes to.

[The MG Pony]

I wont waste my time as it has been so well debunked on the solar claim.

[Shawn Carvin]

if R404a & R507a &R134a as unacceptable
what refrigerants can replace ??

[The MG Pony]

R-600a

Ethane, propane blends could probably surplant 507 series.