Daikin refrigerant leak?

[thewool]

I have a daikin RZQ125KV and it didn't heat last winter. The service agent said it was a refrigerant leak and wanted to do a leak test. Just coming out of summer and it has cooled perfectly all summer. Need sort out the heating issue before this winter. My question is, if it was a refrigerant leak causing the heating issue, then wouldn't the same leak also make it not cool properly? Especially after over 6 months of leaking? I don't want to go through the expense of this leak test for nothing.

[Rob White]

I have a daikin RZQ125KV and it didn't heat last winter. The service agent said it was a refrigerant leak and wanted to do a leak test. Just coming out of summer and it has cooled perfectly all summer. Need sort out the heating issue before this winter. My question is, if it was a refrigerant leak causing the heating issue, then wouldn't the same leak also make it not cool properly? Especially after over 6 months of leaking? I don't want to go through the expense of this leak test for nothing.

So its the same problem as you had last year

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ht=#post281350

And you still have not done anything about it?
I know you have had issues with it but why wait
until it fails completely?

The way I see it you have a few choices.

One is leave it as it is and if it was a minor control issue
and if it has worked all summer then maybe it will be OK.

The other is to get somebody out to it and have it serviced,
that way any issues will be resolved.

Just out of interest when you had this system installed did
you think it would run for ever without a service or maintenance
done on it?

Would you run a car without servicing it regularly?

Rob

.

[thewool]

So its the same problem as you had last year

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ht=#post281350

And you still have not done anything about it?
I know you have had issues with it but why wait
until it fails completely?

The way I see it you have a few choices.

One is leave it as it is and if it was a minor control issue
and if it has worked all summer then maybe it will be OK.

The other is to get somebody out to it and have it serviced,
that way any issues will be resolved.

Just out of interest when you had this system installed did
you think it would run for ever without a service or maintenance
done on it?

Would you run a car without servicing it regularly?

Rob

.

Not sure I like your attitude.

I asked a simple question.

For your information the unit is only a few years old. it had been serviced and some major components replaced, unnecessarily I might add. The issue is not fixed and daikin nor their service agents have any idea after 4 visits, and keep plucking at straws at my expense.

For your information, it will cost me $1000 to have my fan leak tested, due to a shoddy instalation which I have cut my losses on. This is even though I am 95% sure it is not a refrigerant leak.

If this keeps going, I will have no heating again this winter and it would have been cheaper to just replace the whole damn thing. The warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Now again, if possible, could somebody please have a go at answering my question and potentially save me another grand.

Cheers.

[Rob White]

Not sure I like your attitude.

I asked a simple question.

For your information the unit is only a few years old. it had been serviced and some major components replaced, unnecessarily I might add. The issue is not fixed and daikin nor their service agents have any idea after 4 visits, and keep plucking at straws at my expense.

For your information, it will cost me $1000 to have my fan leak tested, due to a shoddy instalation which I have cut my losses on. This is even though I am 95% sure it is not a refrigerant leak.

If this keeps going, I will have no heating again this winter and it would have been cheaper to just replace the whole damn thing. The warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Now again, if possible, could somebody please have a go at answering my question and potentially save me another grand.

Cheers.

I'm sorry you don't like my attitude.

Nothing I could tell you would be of any real benefit to you.
Somebody needs to physically inspect the system and then come up
with a solution. If you have no trust in the installation and with any company
that has dealt with it up to now, your only option is to seek another professional
opinion and then seek recompense using whatever legal methods are open to you.

You sound pi**ed off with the work you have had done up till now and maybe
that is justifiable but ultimately this needs acting on now otherwise you enter
another winter of uncertainty.

My analogy with the car was just my way of explaining that mechanical things
will not always work well if left unchecked.

Rob

.

[The Viking]

Unfortunately I will have to agree with Rob, you need an experienced engineer with his (or her) hands in direct contact with your system in order to solve your issues. Sorry.

To carry on with Rob's analogy, would you email a car dealer on the other side of the globe expecting an answer as to why your car doesn't start?

Personally I would be more than happy to help you out but the $1000 you been quoted already doesn't even begin to cover my travel costs...

[install monkey]

when a system loses refrigerant- the customer only notices poor heating performance, never reduced cooling affect

youve been running your system with poor compressor cooling and risk cooking your compressor- best get it fixed asap as aussie gas isnt cheap and a compressor as well - it would be cheaper to replace it

had a mitsi cassette - 1kg system charge- every 6 mth got a call, not working- 3 other hero's allegedly repaired it- cracked flare nut on indoor, leakin schraeder core- when i finally got to pressure test it- i found the tiny pipes on the 4 way valve had rubbed- didnt fancy brazing it- proved it wit glo stick dye - replaced the valve, no drama's- that was 18mth ago-

[frank]

Are you confident that the system has been sized correctly for your heat losses during the winter months?

No amount of leak checking will make a system that is undersized perform well.

Did you get a specification with your quotation before you bit the bullet and had it installed?

[FreezerGeezer]

Where are you? I may be willing to take a look if you're local.

Had a leaking Dakin last week that was quite a pain to find.
As has been said, refrigerant is extremely expensive now. The new refrigerant for the above job cost the thick end of $700 alone.
What refrigerant is it on & how much of it?
Why was the installation so bad in your opinion?
Are there any fault codes showing in either heating or cooling?
As Install Monkey says, having run it potentially with a fault for so long may have caused even more problems.
Also, don't forget that warranty only covers issues with the equipment as it left the factory. Things like leaks on the interconnecting pipes due to poor installation aren't covered by the manufacturer's warranty. Gecko's blowing the PCB's aren't warranty either. Crap power supplies stuffing PCB's aren't warranty. And so on and so on.
Then, Daikin's warranty labour allowance is notoriously tight fisted, so don't expect it'll all be covered by them even if it is a genuine warranty fault.

[r.bartlett]

when a system loses refrigerant- the customer only notices poor heating performance, never reduced cooling affect

youve been running your system with poor compressor cooling and risk cooking your compressor- best get it fixed asap as aussie gas isnt cheap and a compressor as well - it would be cheaper to replace it

had a mitsi cassette - 1kg system charge- every 6 mth got a call, not working- 3 other hero's allegedly repaired it- cracked flare nut on indoor, leakin schraeder core- when i finally got to pressure test it- i found the tiny pipes on the 4 way valve had rubbed- didnt fancy brazing it- proved it wit glo stick dye - replaced the valve, no drama's- that was 18mth ago-

do you have any more 'I had a leak once' Stories for us Grampa Simpson

[r.bartlett]

Where are you? I may be willing to take a look if you're local.

Had a leaking Dakin last week that was quite a pain to find.
As has been said, refrigerant is extremely expensive now. The new refrigerant for the above job cost the thick end of $700 alone.
What refrigerant is it on & how much of it?
Why was the installation so bad in your opinion?
Are there any fault codes showing in either heating or cooling?
As Install Monkey says, having run it potentially with a fault for so long may have caused even more problems.
Also, don't forget that warranty only covers issues with the equipment as it left the factory. Things like leaks on the interconnecting pipes due to poor installation aren't covered by the manufacturer's warranty. Gecko's blowing the PCB's aren't warranty either. Crap power supplies stuffing PCB's aren't warranty. And so on and so on.
Then, Daikin's warranty labour allowance is notoriously tight fisted, so don't expect it'll all be covered by them even if it is a genuine warranty fault.

I wouldn't get involved it was a s.h.i.t.e install remember and this has been going on for years. You'll only end up taking all the flak. Walk away like everyone else did!

[thewool]

Thanks so much to those who contributed helpfully. I am very appreciative.

No thanks to the two cynics.

Cheers Freezergeezer, i'm down south and wouldn't have bothered you anyway. Its well within warranty so I guess I have to keep inviting Daikin and their service agents over to further waste my time and take another stab in the dark with the refrigerant leak. BTW, they have already replaced the PC Board, Air Sensors, the Discharge sensor and the internal controller. Although what you say about Daikin and tight fists is a bit of a worry. Worse case scenario is that they finally find the fault after 10 goes and say its the installers fault and charge me for all those goes. Can they do that? Maybe I should get the original installer to have a shot at it and forget Daikin? As much as I don't want to.

The expense on my end is related to making the outdoor unit on the roof safely accessible for service, which I paid the installers to do, which they didn't. More trouble than it's worth dealing with them and the courts, hence cutting my losses on that issue.

Also, I don't think it was a 's.h.i.t.e' install as a whole, (the company is quite large and reputable) but rather poor communication to the contractor who was responsible for the outdoor roof mount. Apart from the fact that no-one wants to take responsibility for the stuff up. I work in the building industry and this crap happens all the time, the bouncing the blame game cause everyone knows nothings worth taking to court.

Also, the unit worked fine for the first 2 winter seasons and it has been properly designed/specified.

If anyone has any other ideas about what could be wrong with it, please let me know and I can pass it onto the service agent, cause it truly seems they have no idea, especially the daikin guy who was totally useless.


Thanks again.

[Asbolute]

I have a daikin RZQ125KV and it didn't heat last winter. The service agent said it was a refrigerant leak and wanted to do a leak test. Just coming out of summer and it has cooled perfectly all summer. Need sort out the heating issue before this winter. My question is, if it was a refrigerant leak causing the heating issue, then wouldn't the same leak also make it not cool properly? Especially after over 6 months of leaking? I don't want to go through the expense of this leak test for nothing.

Did anyone ever carry out leak check?
Has anyone check the 4-way valve operation for heating?
Has anyone check the expansion valve operation as this would be fully open in cooling mode and modulate in heating mode?

[Asbolute]

Did anyone ever carry out leak check?
Has anyone check the 4-way valve operation for heating?
Has anyone check the expansion valve operation as this would be fully open in cooling mode and modulate in heating mode?

- This could be wrong it's a split system but still maybe an issue!

[Asbolute]

- This could be wrong it's a split system but still maybe an issue!

The expansion valve I'm talking about

[still learning]

rzq 125 . is this one of the leaky outdoor coil dakins ?
i wondered if ( the wool ) could see the underneath of the outdoor unit and poke a finger into the drian hole in the mid point of the the coil at the back of the unit and feel oil ?
another give away is a oilstain on the floor ., if there is is these leaks are hard to find and reqiure a fair bit of dismantling of the outdoor unit .
reclaim the gas ,
attach a suitable gauge to the inside pipework of the outdoor unit , close the service ports and then pressurise the pipework and indoor coil . check flares and any brazes . if possible look at the indoor coil , this is were a ultra sonic leak detector helps ( does for me ) as leak spray does not always show a leak .
even better if the test can be held for 24 hours or more and the check the gauges .
you could even leave a pressure test on for a week ( i have ) then return to see if its the outdoor or the indoor unit .

[Paul84]

Hi 'thewool'. I think you should go back to my post in your original thread.

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ht=#post281350

We can all rule out some problems based on your feedback -
- its heated previous years until last winter
- it cooled 'perfectly' in the summer just passed
- system was recharged and problem re-occured instantly

This rules out design, install and refrigerant leaks. Everyone on here is caught up on a refrigerant leak diagnosed by a 'useless' technician - your words. We don't have any reason to believe it has a leak.

I bet you $5 the wall controller has faulted on 'U0' (refrigerant shortage) which is a symptom not a diagnosis and the technician bee lined for that. Its up to the technician to monitor the operating system to cross check the two.

From experience on this unit. If the unit cools but doesn't heat well its due to the temperature sensor (thermistor) on the 4way valve (reversing valve) out of calibration. The system will run for upto 30 mins then ramp down due to targets not being satisfied.

Its unlikely to be a faulty expansion valve but easily diagnosible. This system has a single expansion valve used for both heating and cooling.

Another part worth checking is the High Pressure Sensor. Reads HP in heating and LP in cooling. In most cases would affect the cooling operation.

Hopefully I shed new light to the problem

[mikeref]

Part of O.P's original post. Quote: "Just coming out of summer and it has cooled perfectly all summer. Need sort out the heating issue before this winter." End Quote.

COULD it be something as simple as an open circuit, (Burnt out) reversing valve coil...or a stuck valve?
No need for the 4 way valve to slide into hot gas redirection mode when on "Cool" cycle during our recent record breaking Summer down under.
BTW, i only skipped through the comments and may have missed someone mentioning this ^ possibility.

[Paul84]

No deal Mikey, if only hey.

Original thread states unit mildly heats then blows air. If RV not switching Thermo Fan wouldn't come 'On'(35*c) and would Cool with Indoor Fan 'Off'. So warm enough to start Indoor Fan but not enough outdoor capacity to provide effective heating - which is why i reckon the inverter is ramping down due to target limitations.

[frank]

In heating mode, are you able to take a pipe temperature just a short distance from the service valve on the outdoor unit and then a pipe temperature just before the flare connection on the indoor fan coil?

This will determine if you are losing heat along the pipework or if the outdoor unit is not producing sufficient heat.

[thewool]

thanks for all the responses!

The fans on a pitched roof so its really hard to get to, so I can't run and any of the tests you all suggested. Firstly I need to build a platform around the unit. No easy feat.

Once i've done that I can get it leak tested and try the tests.

Paul84, you are spot on, it did report a U0 hence them wanting to do a leak test. It is still showing this error.
But, the system has not been leak tested yet and hence has not been recharged.
I did show the service agent your comments about the 'reversing valve' and the 'thermistor' last time.
He didn't think it was either of those. Probably thought I was a smart ass hence his indifference.

Correct, it does start blowing warm air for a few minutes, sometimes a bit more, then cold.
Not sure if I mentioned it, but it is totally dependant on the temperature outside. This happens when it is below 12 degrees outside which was almost the whole winter. Above that, it seemed to work ok.
Maybe that sheds some light?

thanks again.

[mikeref]

No deal Mikey, if only hey.

Original thread states unit mildly heats then blows air. If RV not switching Thermo Fan wouldn't come 'On'(35*c) and would Cool with Indoor Fan 'Off'. So warm enough to start Indoor Fan but not enough outdoor capacity to provide effective heating - which is why i reckon the inverter is ramping down due to target limitations.

Meh....Looks like i should use my reading spec's, rather than viewing posts through the empty glasses of Morgan's and ice. 0_-

[Peter_1]

Thermistor coil goin out of rane thinking it's hot enough. Compare resistance with resistance in a Daikin table

[airtrackinc]

it's possible...refrigerant leak cause improper operation to Daikin or it's just the sensor problem.

[moondawn]

hi, i have had this U0 fault before, and system would kind of work then performance would drop, turned out the compressor was not pumping properly. Could ask them to perform a pump down on the compressor whoever comes back.

[thewool]

Hi all, just to let you know, I built a platform, they had 6 more goes at fixing it, replacing many parts, re-gasing etc. No good. Couldn't fix it.

Maybe its a design fault? Who knows.

After a many complaints, legal threats etc, they are replacing it with a new model.

Phew. Thanks again for your help.

[Brian_UK]

If it's any consolation here in the UK we have had ongoing problems with RZQ units.

Daikin now appear to have got to the root of the problems and all new units, from March last year IIRC, have the issues resolved.

After replacing coils on site Daikin have attended to update the onboard control software. Systems run a lot better now.