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  1. #1
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    Cellar cooler tripping breaker



    Hi, I am having some issues with a cellar cooler....basically the unit originally would only run for a few seconds then trip the breaker. I changed the electric kit and since then will run for long periods but for no apparent reason will trip out. I found the oil to be a tad low so topped it to the correct level and still having the same problem, as far as I'm aware the problem started through the heat wave we've been having and is still doing it. The gas pressures seem fine as it's running with a full sight glass and has on a couple of occasions got down to temperature. I've checked all wiring and can't find any waring or arching, the maintenance guy has swapped the breaker to check it's not that, the condenser coil is clear as a whistle so very confused on what could be causing it as I've never seen a system do anything like it before. The only other thing that has been found is, when the maintenance guy was swapping the breakers over to test, the live and neutral wires for a relay dropped out and looking at it closer the live has been arching on the terminal. Was considering swapping it for a new one to see if the loose wires may have damaged/weakened the relay and perhaps this could've been causing the unit to trip.
    I'm hoping someone may have some clues or come across something similar and perhaps give me any ideas on what the issue could be.

    The compressor is a maneurop MT 18 compressor and running on r22.

    Thanks



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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    megger the compressor terminals to earth

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Wouldn't the terminals to earth just blow the breaker almost instantly though? This is running for hours then for no reason that I can find tripping the breaker.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    not if the insulation is just over 1 meg ohm
    alsocheck the compressor doesnt have excessive condensation as droplets can cause arc ing accross the terminals

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    there's deffinately no issues with condensation on the compressor because most of the time when it trips out its bone dry. I have already checked the resistance between the terminals to see if anything was amiss there but not to earth as I always expected it to blow the breaker straight away if anything was to earth. Its abit of a strange one, sometimes it will trip almost straight away then other times it will run for maybe 10 or 12 hours with no issues then for no apparent reason just trip out??

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    I thought cellar cooling should have earth leakage fitted?

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Could you be getting liquid back to the comp causing liquid lock on the comp and tripping out?

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    How would you go about preventing that? Would that be due to being over charged or something else? I don't really have a clear history of the unit as there's no previous paper work to show what has been done on the unit ie if someone has topped the refrigerant levels up and over charged etc. That is obviously making things more awkward as I don't know who's been fiddling with what.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    I would have said replace the expansion valve and check the orophis size to stop liquid getting back to the comp. The problem you have is being there when it is happening if its intermittent. Have you ever noticed frost coming back on the suct line or compressor body? I'd be tempted to pump down change drier, tev and orophis and see how you go from there.
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    There's no frost going back to the compressor,it sweats back when it's been running for a while and temperature starts to come down nicely and everything seems to run spot on. Then you can leave it and it might run for several hours the just go off, then it might trip quite quickly to begin with but other times it starts back up with no issues and coul run until it reaches temperature. I'm going back to have another look today and no doubt I'll get it to run, the only thing I can think is to retest the compressor terminals and check over all the wiring again and be sure there's nothing amiss. If there's nothing wrong electrically it must be something to do with the refrigerant, like you say perhaps there's liquid getting back to the compressor or it's been over charged perhaps!?

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    I would say if it was overcharged you would have it frosting back all the time to the comp not sweating. What pressures are you getting? When you first get it up and running after about 10minutes what is your liquid line feeling like(warm cold red hot)?
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    also check ur stat is accuratly is cutting out and contactors/relays arent sticking too
    any eleccy heater on the evap??

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    also check ur stat is accuratly is cutting out and contactors/relays arent sticking too
    any eleccy heater on the evap??
    Agreed this would be worth checking before changing the valve etc...
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    before u ask i didnt fit it!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1mikeefc1 View Post
    Agreed this would be worth checking before changing the valve etc...

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    before u ask i didnt fit it!
    The thought never crossed my mind honest, plus its on r22 your to young surely to have installed such old equipment. ;-)
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    What's breaker rated at.
    What's comp rated at what's it running at under load and not underload
    What's the units Full load amps
    What do the terminal look like
    What's the age of the wiring
    Have unchecked it at the places you can't see
    What's the size of the wire
    What's fla of the whole system
    What's resistance to earth of main wiring into the unit (remember disconnect any capacitors)
    Are all your terminals tight
    What's the overload for the compressor rated at
    What is the voltage difference across the contractor then overload
    What's the resistance of each motor to earth
    What's the resistance to earth between indoor and outdoor side of system
    What's the capacitor values
    What's you mean you changed the electric kit. Did you upgrade and overload the circuit.
    Highly doubtfull its a refrigeration problem its electrical fault on a refrigerator/ cellar room
    Could be though wats the Defrost length most pubs turn there unit off at night for many hours if you have no sum heater you will have vapour migration occur and then condense in the oil causing a flooded start.
    Which would be why it does it when you start it back up and the works after couple of resets as you just boiled off any liquid it would also explain oil being short.
    Also I've seen dead shorts to earth running the compressor for 1-2 seconds then trip on internal O/L then start back up and do it all over again .
    An RCD will trip near instantly but a breaker has to get hot first

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    quote
    The only other thing that has been found is, when the maintenance guy was swapping the breakers over to test, the live and neutral wires for a relay dropped out and looking at it closer the live has been arching on the terminal.

    was this just pitting of the contacts?
    Last edited by install monkey; 10-08-2013 at 01:17 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Also how long have you done refrigeration for to have not seen that before
    I get a drama like that every second day and image 27

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    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    quote
    The only other thing that has been found is, when the maintenance guy was swapping the breakers over to test, the live and neutral wires for a relay dropped out and looking at it closer the live has been arching on the terminal.
    was this just pitting of the contacts?
    How could someone with so much experience and knowledge like your self be asking such questions as in this whole post.
    Answer my questions mate and you will find the problem and uf not i have another 20 relevant questions to ask

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    my reply of "pitting contacts" was asking if its just normal wear or frazzled- as you have to determine the knowledge of the poster- they could be suitably trained or complete ****wits- and with no images posted we can only ask?

    been doin fridge/ac for 23yrs- nearly as long as you been outta nappies!
    Last edited by install monkey; 10-08-2013 at 01:24 PM.

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    This bloke is young or new to the game.
    Either way he has to check alot more conditions and provide accurate values of numerous running conditions otherwise no one can help him.
    I understand your trying to help him but his post is vague and your all just guessing. Myself included

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    also depends on what tools/test meters he has to hand- all we can do is suggest things to check and offer advice- we cannot .
    as long as he is learning about diagnosing/fault finding to identify the 1 faulty component as opposed to the hero's who change compressors to find it was the interconnecting cable or contactor 2 phasing

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    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    also depends on what tools/test meters he has to hand- all we can do is suggest things to check and offer advice- we cannot .
    as long as he is learning about diagnosing/fault finding to identify the 1 faulty component as opposed to the hero's who change compressors to find it was the interconnecting cable or contactor 2 phasing
    I agree completely i suppose i got taught be a real A hole who was stringent on me having the correct info available before i rang him for help.
    Ha suppose its funny how i turned out.
    Such a relaxed easy going guy and not a Ahole at all. Lol

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    And to the poster that compressor has a built in accumulator so its probably not floodback when its running anyways

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    we cannot pick who teaches us- but in a way if you look back he might of seemed an asshole at the time, but if it taught u to do checks on the system,theres a chance you'd find the fault before having to ring him- so you benefit. usually in the uk we do not get 1 mentor- usually its a bus load of ****wits with varying levels of knowledge- my lad is in his 3rd yr doin ac- his last mentor couldnt find leak on a 3,5kw split!- my lad was teaching him!- personally i wouldnt even trust my lad cooking!
    also experience does count too-u can have people with 20yrs experience that know systems inside out and can identify faults from noise,usually theyre the dude with a fork and a neon in their toolbox
    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    I agree completely i suppose i got taught be a real A hole who was stringent on me having the correct info available before i rang him for help.
    Ha suppose its funny how i turned out.
    Such a relaxed easy going guy and not a Ahole at all. Lol

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by wheats8 View Post
    The only other thing that has been found is, when the maintenance guy was swapping the breakers over to test, the live and neutral wires for a relay dropped out and looking at it closer the live has been arching on the terminal. Was considering swapping it for a new one to see if the loose wires may have damaged/weakened the relay and perhaps this could've been causing the unit to trip.
    I must be missing something?!? You say that the breaker is tripping! I am assuming that this is the main breaker that supplies power to the condensing unit. If so, how can you have power to a relay! If the relay dropped out when the breaker was swapped out it would also drop out if the breaker was tripped!

    Put an amp meter on the line side at the breaker. Monitor the amperage. What is the breaker rated for and what amperage are you drawing? Does it climb steadily or jump all of a sudden? If this is a problem that only appears once every other day you may consider using a data logger and gather some trends. You may find a commonality.

    What are your system pressures? Superheat? Subcooling?

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    And to the poster that compressor has a built in accumulator so its probably not floodback when its running anyways


    Nice to see your proving people wrong with facts. "Probably" the best fridge engineer in the world aren't you. If the valve is faulty the accumulator will not be enough to stop liquid getting back to the comp as it will be flooded.
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    It is shocking what some bloke know about there job and i agree he was trying to make me a better tradesman i still to this very day get a pen and paper out when i talk to him over the phone and write everything down he says so i can reference back to it.
    I do it when he is just talking about a job he is working on too. Its always good to record any info he gives me as it has helped a few times late at night over the years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1mikeefc1 View Post

    Nice to see your proving people wrong with facts. "Probably" the best fridge engineer in the world aren't you. If the valve is faulty the accumulator will not be enough to stop liquid getting back to the comp as it will be flooded.
    No probably about it.
    As for the valve flooding wats a cellar rooms sst. In Oz -5 without a glcycol tank and -5 to 0 with a tank maybe 0 to +2 a big maybe though.
    So we would see what if its flooding (what's that thing your smoking) oh yeah ICE.
    He did say its sweating after a couple of hours didn't he.
    When i see a medium temp application with a valve flooding i always notice the ice/frost building up. Nearly 10 minutes after starting

    then i use my awesome gauges and check superheat and adjust accordingly if it won't change i check correct position of bulb make sure no internal heat source is influencing the bulb then clean strainer, then test again if its still flooding i might check that the Evap coil isn't full of oil by putting the bulb in a cup of water/ice solution and see if the txv can regulate any saturated liquid if no its no good but yeah probably isn't flooding as the compressor has a internal type of accumlator and there's no ice on the line

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Cellar temp in uk 11 degrees, evap at 4 so no need for glycol and no reason for frost on suct. Simples.
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Check the start and run capacitors to see if they are ok. Also worth checking the operation and switching pressures of the pressure switches. Have seen low pressure switches go out of range and then start cycling as the room temperature and suction pressure drop. Think the hp is a manual reset on those but have still seen one cause rapid cycling as the mechanism had failed.
    If they have gone out of adjustment replace them, they never seem to last long after needing adjustment.
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Skipping all the above, what I'd do in this case:

    Breakers have a thermal co-efficient, higher ambient = easier to trip, but the sounds of it this may not be a core issue, but can be easily checked with an IR therm,

    measure other load bearing breakers then measure compressor breaker, is it unusually higher then the rest? If no the panel is not the issue.

    Check controls for proper setting, clean contacts and torqued screw terminals, a lose wire will cause all sort of head aches as will bad contacts!

    If for some reason you suspect the charge measure super heat and sub cooling, never just replace the valve as IMO that's daft unless it is a clear problem, it wastes time, opens the system for no good reason and wastes money! for a part that rarely fails.

    with charge ruled out and the breaker ruled out, you may have a dying compressor introducing a higher load (This can be caused by an over charge so rule this out first!) do you have a clamp on ammeter? what is the inrush (LRA) what is the running amps? (RLA) As suggested above do an insulation test for earth leakage as well

    does it have a run cap? if so test the run and start caps. much after this check all the wiring care fully, some thing is introducing stress into the system, being it is said to have run fine and started during a heat wave my money is on bad electrical, either in control loop or the power loop, but may be an over charge as a sight glass is not a means to proper charging, in experienced techs just shove refrigerant in till no bubbles are in the sight glass this can easily create an over charged system that when under higher ambient will cause higher power draw from the compressor due to high head pressures and stress an all ready twitchy breaker due to high ambient.

    Intermittent issues like this is a game of elimination, where to start is your choice, being the easiest is the electrical, start there, if the compressor is showing higher draw then usual then we will focus in on the refrigeration side of things after the remainder of the electrical is checked and verified.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    It might just be worth checking on the type of MCB fitted to the installation B type are suited to general domestic installations and are not necessarily the best selection for predominantly inductive loads.
    Specifications of the three main types available.

    • Type B trips between 3 and 5 time full load current;
    • Type C trips between 5 and 10 times full load current; and
    • Type D trips between 10 and 20 times full load current.
    Location, United Kingdom

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by 1mikeefc1 View Post
    Cellar temp in uk 11 degrees, evap at 4 so no need for glycol and no reason for frost on suct. Simples.
    SORRY MATE what happens when you flood a coil, thats right the evap coil shows its got no load on it...
    why is that? the excess amounts of refrigerant in the coil is to great of volume for product heat load to boil off

    hold on wait for it.

    doesnt sst get lower when theres no load as the txv even though its flooding is still shutting down or trying too,and will to some degree,
    pretty sure we could make the leap from a +4sst to 0sst

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    GOOD POINTS bIG pONy


    specs M18.jpg

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    these are specs for Englands mt 18
    Technical data

    Cylinder count: 1
    Displacement [m³/h]: 5,26
    Cylinder capacity [cm³]: 30,2
    RPM [min-1]: 2900
    Weight [kg]: 21
    Oil charge [dm³]: 1
    Oil type: 160P
    Crankcase heater type: PTC 35 W
    Maximum system test pressure low side / high side: 25 / 30
    Maximum number of starts without softstart [1/h]: 12
    Refrigerant charge limit [dm³]: 3
    Refrigerant: R22
    Sound power [dB]: 73


    Single phase power supply

    Electrical data

    Motor voltage code: 1 5
    Starting current [A]: 51 40
    Maximum Continuous Current (MCC) [A]: 13 10
    Winding resistance (between phases) (run/start) [Ω]: 1,36/4,82 1,8/4,7
    Main condenser (A) (PSC/CSR) [μF]: 20
    Main condenser (C) (PSC/CSR) [μF]: 10
    Starting condenser (B) (CSR) [μF]: 100
    Starting relay (CSR): 3ARR3J4A4



    Three-phase power supply

    Electrical data

    Motor voltage code: 3 4 6 7 9
    Starting current [A]: 38 20 30
    Maximum Continuous Current (MCC) [A]: 9 5 30
    Winding resistance (between phases) [Ω]: 2,49 10,24 3,38
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rjsinoz; 10-08-2013 at 08:27 PM.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    So we would see what if its flooding (what's that thing your smoking) oh yeah ICE.
    Ice on a suction line does not mean the system is flooding, neither does a lack of ice mean it is not flooding. This is kindergarten stuff...
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    Ice on a suction line does not mean the system is flooding, neither does a lack of ice mean it is not flooding. This is kindergarten stuff...
    Quoted for accuracy!
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Ok so you guys have me curious, i was always taught frost on the comp or suct is there due to refrigerant liquid not being boiled off in the evap enough. This can be caused by valve faulty or not set up correctly, over charged, evap fans down etc... So if your saying this isn't the case why the frost?
    As I said previously there are other things to check before just changing the valve.
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    if you have a low temp box, an un-lagged suction line and a humid environment what will happen?

    Eventualy humidity will condence then freeze and slowely build up a frost layer, it is in relation to the temp your box is, it is perfectly normal to see a sweating line, not ideal but nothing to fret over, the only way to know is to check the SH and SC values.

    And remember if there is good oil carry over well have nice cold oil happily chilling the pipe and side of compressor.

    but when any comes accross this it is prudent to make sure this is the case by checking the SH.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    Quote Originally Posted by The MG Pony View Post
    if you have a low temp box, an un-lagged suction line and a humid environment what will happen?

    Eventualy humidity will condence then freeze and slowely build up a frost layer, it is in relation to the temp your box is, it is perfectly normal to see a sweating line, not ideal but nothing to fret over, the only way to know is to check the SH and SC values.

    And remember if there is good oil carry over well have nice cold oil happily chilling the pipe and side of compressor.

    but when any comes accross this it is prudent to make sure this is the case by checking the SH.

    Sweating on the suction I agree is seen/felt whilst a system is working but not freezing on a cellar cooling unit that is around 11degrees set point, on lower temp systems I have seen freezing on the suct but if working properly never to the comp valve or body.

    Im only asking to make sure of what I've been taught so I don't pass duff info on.
    The last thing to leave an engineer is pride!!

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    Re: Cellar cooler tripping breaker

    If the system is evaporating at -5c and the suction valve on the compressor is -5c you will have frost on it and liquid returning to the compressor which as you know is bad. (0c superheat)

    If the system is evaporating at -15c and the suction valve on the compressor is -5c you will have frost on it and no liquid returning to the compressor which is good! (10c superheat)

    You could also have a system evaporating at 5c and a suction valve at 5c with liquid returning and no frost, so frost is not a guarantee of liquid but can be an indicator that more investigation is needed.

    Measuring suction superheat is the only way to know whats going on.
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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