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  1. #101
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    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG



    Just have myself a little laugh..

    Checked the profile of our friend and under 'Friends' it states ---
    "Rjsinoz has not made any friends yet"

    About sums it up I think.


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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Having followed this thread from the beginning, i have to congratulate MG pony and Mad F for continuing to keep a cool head while the O.P. only showed disrespect.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  3. #103
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    Brian_UK is offline Moderator I am starting to push the Mods: of RE Site Moderator : and general nice guy
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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    Having followed this thread from the beginning, i have to congratulate MG pony and Mad F for continuing to keep a cool head while the O.P. only showed disrespect.
    Agreed whole heartedly.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Wow this has been an epic round about argument about something that doesn't even matter, totally agree with my Kiwi country man, dont ever trust instrumentation, trust averages and what is actually happening.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Let’s get a few things straight edited
    ***
    ***
    ***
    When a near stable system running at fairly consistent loads/pressures experiences a sudden or abrupt reduction in its refrigerant flow rate, the refrigerant can been seen to have a sudden pressure drop that is created at nearly the precious moment the flow rate changes
    What else do we know, when a liquid line is sized up, it is, in basic terms, sized to the capacity of the compressor at a given SST at a rated ambient and pressure drop and its main function is to maintained an acceptable velocity of a liquid through the area of that pipe. So when all 4 compressors are running it can and usually does maintain a full Colum of liquid through the sight glass with minimal bubbles occurring. Assuming other conditions are correct of course.
    E.g. My video-
    System running normally @ 95.7psi SCT
    ------- THEN------
    3 compressors off plus ½ of remaining compressor off (unloaded)
    Effectively 12.5% capacity now running,
    20seconds later video shows my awesome gauges displaying 86.8psi and rising
    So its safe to safe pressure went even lower than this but let’s just go with what we can see.
    Then I press some buttons and my gauges display 0.4SC..
    Now it has been made perfectly clear that my measurements were flawed, which I now thank you for MAD MEN and Big Pony as you made me realise what has actually happened
    I will now share it with you all, not for the benefit of this forum but to simply point out no one else ever said it or realised it.
    Where is the condenser and receiver I said to myself?
    Now let’s think about those statements for a while people……

    That’s right all before the sight glass,
    I was measuring the pressure at the inlet to the drier core and when we saw the 9psi pressure drop occur (remember probably was higher drop) then I checked sub cool reading which was only 0.4K.
    Now if you all go and have a look at the various points through the video you will clearly see the liquids temp stayed the same according to my inaccurate reading.
    So let’s say I now agree with you that I wasn’t recording the correct temp, whatever temp difference occurred between the pipe and the fluid, was still only ever a wrong reading on my display by which I mean my displayed showed 26.6 C when it was actually 27.6 C for an example, either way my recordings were always lower than actual fluid temp.
    They must have been as if the fluid temps were lower we would have been increasing SC rate and that would completely contradicted everything you said..
    So as we instantly decreased pressure by 9 psi our SCT went from 29.5C to below our actual liquid lines temp meaning the condensers coils pressure went lower and our liquid receivers pressure went lower and what happens when we lower the pressure of our condenser coil and liquid receiver to a value lower than our actual liquid lines temp……..
    That’s right the liquid instantly changes state from a sub cooled liquid to a saturated liquid/fluid.
    And that’s a lot of liquid which just changed state whole receiver for example…..
    Then I asked myself why did the bubbles appear to become less visible as the pressure started to get higher again, then I said to myself hold on, you’re not the dumb ass, it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
    And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………


    AND YEAH I DID ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION .... regarding this forums actual question which was saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG
    as along as equilibrium between vapour evaporating and vapour condensing is not occuring the subcooled liquid is simply evaporating inside the recevier and due to the fact that theres a constantly varying amount of liquid entering and leaving the tank, levels changing along with pressures and flow rates i know that equilibrium would never occur inside that tank.

    One last thing too directed at Brian_UK.... what are you like 10 years old.
    why would i want to make friend on the net i can go and drink beer with real people at the pub.... ******
    Last edited by Peter_1; 27-07-2013 at 06:11 AM.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
    And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………

    it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state, as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP at constant liquid temp....

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Hi Ryan,
    Can you answer me this, why did you join this forum. You obviously have no intention of contributing to the topics on the forum. It seems to me you only want to prove to the world you are by far the greatest engineer in the world. well done and pat yourself on the back for letting us all know how great you are. but people come on here cos they need help not belittling. You come across as being very arrogant. and just for the record, prison does not give the ability to kick the f**k out of everyone. the way you have conversed with some of the lads on here is just disrespectful,

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    So you just rehashed all the sh** we been saying to you and claiming it yours? Big man way to go and all that sod! indeed you are teh elite!

    Why you put us in our place by throwing our own information back at us in your own words!

    with your attitude I think you n the local clink will become good friends!
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    yeah yeah it didnt take long all i did was go through the info, shall i look for the post you clearly said its a saturated liquid caused by a sudden pressure drop.

    go on show me the post that wasnt a vague statement which could me anything, in fact show me any statement you wrote to say this is what the state of the vapour is in in that sglass.

    you see you are a person who gives vague answers because they dont want to back themselves on what there thoughts are.
    if i think something is true ill back myself 150% and fight till the death thats what real man does, they dont um and ar cause they dont want to look like a idiot in front of other memebers they say it straight up,
    then they certainly dont write a post later trying to claim they knew the answer the whole time.

    you see u all think im a ****** to be polite but what u dont realise is the only time you actually said what u meant and backed yourself was when you got angry at the posts i wrote.

    example big pony after i called u on it a few times you responded with why u get same sst temp as probe temp when inside a evap coil and u were spot on but u only responded cause i annoyed u enough to respond......
    simply writing POCKETS in a statement is vague and not at all helpful now with a bit of anger from ur end u told me how it is........
    at least i can respect you when your angry. you might not want my respect but every man should be a man and say what they belive.......

    come on MAD MEN where was your answer as all i remeber u saying was saturated vapour which it clearly was not.
    and when you get down to details saturated liquid is alot different to saturated vapour isin it ?>????????

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    Let’s get a few things straight

    When a near stable system running at fairly consistent loads/pressures experiences a sudden or abrupt reduction in its refrigerant flow rate, the refrigerant can been seen to have a sudden pressure drop that is created at nearly the precious moment the flow rate changes
    What else do we know, when a liquid line is sized up, it is, in basic terms, sized to the capacity of the compressor at a given SST at a rated ambient and pressure drop and its main function is to maintained an acceptable velocity of a liquid through the area of that pipe. So when all 4 compressors are running it can and usually does maintain a full Colum of liquid through the sight glass with minimal bubbles occurring. Assuming other conditions are correct of course.
    E.g. My video-
    System running normally @ 95.7psi SCT
    ------- THEN------
    3 compressors off plus ½ of remaining compressor off (unloaded)
    Effectively 12.5% capacity now running,
    20seconds later video shows my awesome gauges displaying 86.8psi and rising
    So its safe to safe pressure went even lower than this but let’s just go with what we can see.
    Then I press some buttons and my gauges display 0.4SC..
    Now it has been made perfectly clear that my measurements were flawed, which I now thank you for MAD MEN and Big Pony as you made me realise what has actually happened
    I will now share it with you all, not for the benefit of this forum but to simply point out no one else ever said it or realised it.
    Where is the condenser and receiver I said to myself?
    Now let’s think about those statements for a while people……

    That’s right all before the sight glass,
    I was measuring the pressure at the inlet to the drier core and when we saw the 9psi pressure drop occur (remember probably was higher drop) then I checked sub cool reading which was only 0.4K.
    Now if you all go and have a look at the various points through the video you will clearly see the liquids temp stayed the same according to my inaccurate reading.
    So let’s say I now agree with you that I wasn’t recording the correct temp, whatever temp difference occurred between the pipe and the fluid, was still only ever a wrong reading on my display by which I mean my displayed showed 26.6 C when it was actually 27.6 C for an example, either way my recordings were always lower than actual fluid temp.
    They must have been as if the fluid temps were lower we would have been increasing SC rate and that would completely contradicted everything you said..
    So as we instantly decreased pressure by 9 psi our SCT went from 29.5C to below our actual liquid lines temp meaning the condensers coils pressure went lower and our liquid receivers pressure went lower and what happens when we lower the pressure of our condenser coil and liquid receiver to a value lower than our actual liquid lines temp……..
    That’s right the liquid instantly changes state from a sub cooled liquid to a saturated liquid/fluid.
    And that’s a lot of liquid which just changed state whole receiver for example…..
    Then I asked myself why did the bubbles appear to become less visible as the pressure started to get higher again, then I said to myself hold on, you’re not the dumb ass, it’s because when a liquid or a saturated liquids, SCP increases as the temp of the liquid stays the same the fluid will lean towards a sub cooled state as the condensing pressure increases and start to flash the lower the SCP becomes.
    And then I turn all 4 compressors on at 100% pumping rate and what happens discharge pressure rapidly rises well above the liquid actual temp and BANG we have a sub cooled liquid and see a full Colum of liquid………


    AND YEAH I DID ANSWER MY OWN QUESTION .... regarding this forums actual question which was saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG
    as along as equilibrium between vapour evaporating and vapour condensing is not occuring the subcooled liquid is simply evaporating inside the recevier and due to the fact that theres a constantly varying amount of liquid entering and leaving the tank, levels changing along with pressures and flow rates i know that equilibrium would never occur inside that tank.

    One last thing too directed at Brian_UK.... what are you like 10 years old.
    why would i want to make friend on the net i can go and drink beer with real people at the pub.... dumb A**
    Glad to see it still makes your think.
    I think that the answer is covered by the terms dynamic and or change.
    An in depth answer of any form could not be given, because you were blind to your earlier thoughts and practices. (how can a correct answer be given if the raw data is not correct)
    So it would seem that you have understood some of the points raised, and taken these on board.
    As far as your answer goes, it is on the right direction, but do you not think that things happen before the receiver inlet. Think of the thermal mass of the cond and the speed of the fan control loop. You may find that flow into the receiver stops. But liquid is still be drawn from the reciever at a momentary high rate that the comp inlet mass value. (the thermal mass of the evaps and the TXVs being open for max ref. load)
    The equilibrium point is always changing by what degree is where measurement methods become important.

    So why do you continue to be rude, mistakes we all make, "so i could understand your frustration" (on what should seem a simple question), you moved on technically, why not move on personally? an opportunity was given for you to teach or be taught. If you think you have nothing to learn, then you are the only one you are fooling.
    Last edited by frank; 29-07-2013 at 01:42 PM.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    yeah yeah it didnt take long all i did was go through the info, shall i look for the post you clearly said its a saturated liquid caused by a sudden pressure drop.

    go on show me the post that wasnt a vague statement which could me anything, in fact show me any statement you wrote to say this is what the state of the vapour is in in that sglass.

    you see you are a person who gives vague answers because they dont want to back themselves on what there thoughts are.
    if i think something is true ill back myself 150% and fight till the death thats what real man does, they dont um and ar cause they dont want to look like a idiot in front of other memebers they say it straight up,
    then they certainly dont write a post later trying to claim they knew the answer the whole time.

    you see u all think im a ****** to be polite but what u dont realise is the only time you actually said what u meant and backed yourself was when you got angry at the posts i wrote.

    example big pony after i called u on it a few times you responded with why u get same sst temp as probe temp when inside a evap coil and u were spot on but u only responded cause i annoyed u enough to respond......
    simply writing POCKETS in a statement is vague and not at all helpful now with a bit of anger from ur end u told me how it is........
    at least i can respect you when your angry. you might not want my respect but every man should be a man and say what they belive.......

    come on MAD MEN where was your answer as all i remeber u saying was saturated vapour which it clearly was not.
    and when you get down to details saturated liquid is alot different to saturated vapour isin it ?>????????
    Saturated vapour is what it is.
    you have stated that the pressure changes, the liquid boils and conds, so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    As many do, one of your problems is that you look at parts of a system, instead of understanding that the system is always the whole thing. refrigeration systems are circular, so a change in one area will cause change in all other areas.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    as the condensing pressure DECREASES THE FLUID WILL start to flash DUE TO THE lower SCP
    So that is what you wanted to know.

    If you drop the pressure on liquid that is on or close to its boiling, then it will boil? "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

    i am sure that dropping pressure is what we try to do in a refrigeration circuit???

    So answer your next question, the opposite could be true if the the pressure was increased an a vapour would turn into a liquid.

    In both cases there are exceptions, for example "sublimation"

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Hello all,

    This is my first day on this site, this is my first thread i have read and actually my first post. I have read through this entire post, and must say I have drawn two conclusions.

    First- I am completely at ease to post any questions I have here after reading through this. As i can see that, a lot of the "veteran" posters here exhibit extreme patience in the face of ignorance. So i know any discrepancies I may encounter in my logic of things as I pose questions or posts, will be met with the same patience, and that places me at ease.

    Secondly- The wealth of knowledge and experience that is possessed here, from all sides of the table is phenomenal, and I look forward to learning from all of you and hopefully being able to provide my two cents and be beneficial to the community.

    Plus O.P. ignorance gave me a good laugh, oddly enough the only saying that would repeatedly come to mind when reading the back and forth was "pearls before swine"

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Thanks Peter,

    Hi American Tech, and welcome. You picked a lively thread to respond to.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Indeed he did, idiots albeit annoying usually do offer the general community an occasional good laugh! and yes we do our best to steer ones in the most practical and accurate way we can.

    To the OP: Vague is what you get, you don't grasp the system well enough for me to give a precise answer that and you do not have the tools to allow me do give any precise answer! Believe it or not I value my personal time, so when here I give the best I can with what is offered to work with, if you want me to share well over 15 years of on hand experience and 5 years of study (both where concurrent) learn some simple respect and start listening!

    I was born in industry and I do mean literally, this isn't a job but a life style, when I started to get serious about this as a career is about when I started posting here and since listening to the people here and taking their advice advanced me in ways I can not begin to say, I went from a monkey like you to just grasping the system enough to do the work to grasping how to engineer a system from the ground up! You'd be wise to give your head a thorough slap and realign the way you choose your words befor having your rude rear booted off to the street, and that will be a terrible waste for you!

    As Mad said, the system is a whole, and when in operation it is a game of nothing more then balance and averages, every tiny change alters the whole model in a dynamic fashion, with my tools I can get very close to real time fluid and gas temps, my tools let me place the probe in the direct flow of the fluid not the pipe and even then they are not precise enough for what you where trying to do! so you need to learn all the talk is just theory but even in theory the pt chart is just a static reference! then you need to factor in fluid dynamics where physics becomes a factor and so fourth.
    Last edited by frank; 29-07-2013 at 01:47 PM.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    @American_Tech, this was a nice intro after all this verbal violence. Welcome.
    @R.B., i not allways have time to read all posts. It's extremely busy for the moment with my daily job.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Lazy sight glass!
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    hi ryan welcome to the forum!

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    So that is what you wanted to know.

    If you drop the pressure on liquid that is on or close to its boiling, then it will boil? "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

    i am sure that dropping pressure is what we try to do in a refrigeration circuit???

    So answer your next question, the opposite could be true if the the pressure was increased an a vapour would turn into a liquid.

    In both cases there are exceptions, for example "sublimation"
    and yeah thats all i wanted to no, thanks for saying my measurments were wrong 20 times then suddenly i realized what happens when a liquids pressure decreases at a constant temp. CASE CLOSED lol

    gees i thought when we lowered sst we lost capacity dont we.

    i think we should all know how phase change occurs, ill tell u what, next time some young punk gets on the forum and starts making a mockery of the last how ever many years you said youve been a fridgey just shoot me an email and ill give you the answers youll need.
    maybe ill be a young buck by then too.

    besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.



    sorry big fella it would appear your the angry one now WONDER WHY THAT IS?, the liquid had its oown heat in the fluid itself, remember the temp stayed within A DIFFERENTIAL of 0.0K AND 0.5K THE WHOLE MOVIE, by changing the pressure at a constant temp we will have the fluid start to become a SATURATED LIQUID or a subcooled liquid depending on which way the pressure goes... AND THIS STATEMENT YOU WROTE..
    "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

    EXTACTLY RIGHT SO IT IS CLEARLY NOT A SATURATED VAPOUR IS IT???????????????????? AS PREVIOUSLY STATED

    AS WE DIDNT HAVE THAT EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCE SO HAHAHAHAHAHA
    ....
    oh yeah u wrote
    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Saturated vapour is what it is.
    you have stated that the pressure changes, the liquid boils and conds, so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.
    ...edited...

    EVERYONE WHEN MS MAD WRITES THIS -so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.
    ....
    the fact is subcooled liquid started a phase change, because the pressure decreased 9 psi at a constant liquid temp, no external heat source was present to allow the phase chage to go any further and the pressure rised again so the liquid simply went back to a subcooled state SIMPLY REALLY

    ...edited ....

    anyways back to now .
    i never once said it boils i wrote

    ....

    besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.
    are you a turtle cause i really think you should pull your head in.......

    ...edited....
    Last edited by Peter_1; 28-07-2013 at 08:54 PM. Reason: told too often he's only 27

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    The world is simply a mirror, reflecting back to us our own inner state. If we are inwardly in turmoil then we are certain to see a tumultuous world. A seemingly joyous world is only returning to us our own inward joy. What we see is a reflection of our state of consciousness.

    What type of world do you live in rjsinoz?
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Monkey.
    Your words, or should I say the words of your beliefs.
    Are Stunning!
    You don't use them enough, in my opinion.

    Your words risinoz are just hollow!
    Words used correctly have substance!

    You have managed to achieve upsetting many on this forum.
    Well done!
    I hope your persistence is worth it.
    Grizzly

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    and yeah thats all i wanted to no, thanks for saying my measurments were wrong 20 times then suddenly i realized what happens when a liquids pressure decreases at a constant temp. CASE CLOSED lol

    gees i thought when we lowered sst we lost capacity dont we.

    i think we should all know how phase change occurs, ill tell u what, next time some young punk gets on the forum and starts making a mockery of the last how ever many years you said youve been a fridgey just shoot me an email and ill give you the answers youll need.
    maybe ill be a young buck by then too.

    besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.



    sorry big fella it would appear your the angry one now WONDER WHY THAT IS?, the liquid had its oown heat in the fluid itself, remember the temp stayed within A DIFFERENTIAL of 0.0K AND 0.5K THE WHOLE MOVIE, by changing the pressure at a constant temp we will have the fluid start to become a SATURATED LIQUID or a subcooled liquid depending on which way the pressure goes... AND THIS STATEMENT YOU WROTE..
    "yes" upto a point where an external energy source is required to continue the boiling process, the energy source need to be at a higher transmittable level than that of the boiling liquid.

    EXTACTLY RIGHT SO IT IS CLEARLY NOT A SATURATED VAPOUR IS IT???????????????????? AS PREVIOUSLY STATED

    AS WE DIDNT HAVE THAT EXTERNAL HEAT SOURCE SO HAHAHAHAHAHA
    see what happens when you get angry and write a post all because a 27 year old who just got out of the nick proves u wrong..,.
    oh yeah u wrote

    do you actually read what you write when your angry, listen to yourself you sound drunk.....

    to me thats embarrasing at least at the end of the day after everything i wrote i found the answer. you are just making things up now abit like that $100,000 rig you made to prove why this problem occurs in the first place.

    EVERYONE WHEN MS MAD WRITES THIS -so your vapour at the interface will be saturated, and in the slight glass with turbulent mixing will also be saturated, during the process due to velocity and localized pressure differentials, could offer vapour either in a supercooled state or its own micro pressure envelope.
    WHAT HE IS SAYING IS IM TRYING TO SOUND REALLY SMART SO I DONT LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT.
    the fact is subcooled liquid started a phase change, because the pressure decreased 9 psi at a constant liquid temp, no external heat source was present to allow the phase chage to go any further and the pressure rised again so the liquid simply went back to a subcooled state SIMPLY REALLY
    and every good fridgey nows im right regardless of there personal opintion of me, oh yeah geuss what big pony and ms MAD a PT CHART would have and could have recoreded all of this happening if i had only used a better sensor ah well,
    luckliy i didnt spent $100,000dollars like Ms MAD did to build a rig then find out a large presure drop occured and thats why liquid flashes ,woundnt i feel silly...
    better yet id feel even more stupid if i told a forum i had to build a $100,000 rig to fing out why the liquid flashed in a liquid line due to a decreased mass flow rate....

    anyways back to your lies......
    i never once said it boils i wrote




    besides the rare cases of co2 subliming please give me an example, from all the many years of your knowledge when a different refrigerant has had sublimaintion occur.
    are you a turtle cause i really think you should pull your head in.......

    one last thing anyone wonder why i havent been banned from this website.....
    i think its because i do know what im talking about and im not making crap up as i go along to suit my argument
    and who ever is actually running the site reliases this.

    BYE BYE BIG PONY
    BYE BYE Ms MAD
    just remember a scum bag jail bird, just schooled you too, but hey as you say your both willing to learn something new, so i suppose your happy.
    hahahahahahahaahahahahahhahahhahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahaah
    Hi Ryan,

    so without your ramblings, what have you discovered, "technically"?

    Can you keep it simple as I still in the learning phase of my refrigeration career.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Clearly obvious.
    Not to go onto this website without buying a mass flow sensor or Richie sensor and to think about the most reasonable answer when attempting to find Out why liquid starts to flash as 99% of the time it's simply oh yeah to not to ask engineers such as yourself for your thoughts as I receive silly responses and your all to gutless to say what you really think in fear of what others might think of you what did I learn. Oh one other thing I'd love to hear you explain your thought on how compression ratio changes on a freezer rack by adding a subcooler which is run from a stub off a med temp rack just reading all posts last night and really can't figure out what I mean as say spent change and Scp doesn't change so where's the energy saving in that case well besides a smaller condenser

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Sorry auto spell SUCTION pressure or head presure

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by rjsinoz View Post
    Clearly obvious.
    Not to go onto this website without buying a mass flow sensor or Richie sensor and to think about the most reasonable answer when attempting to find Out why liquid starts to flash as 99% of the time it's simply oh yeah to not to ask engineers such as yourself for your thoughts as I receive silly responses and your all to gutless to say what you really think in fear of what others might think of you what did I learn. Oh one other thing I'd love to hear you explain your thought on how compression ratio changes on a freezer rack by adding a subcooler which is run from a stub off a med temp rack just reading all posts last night and really can't figure out what I mean as say spent change and Scp doesn't change so where's the energy saving in that case well besides a smaller condenser
    I will ignore your rants, however you do ask some good questions, that some may fear to ask. (but the answer can be simple or as complicated as you wish)

    In simple terms, sub cooling changes the ratio of liquid boiling/vaporizing which is used for net refrigeration effect. In the evap this called "vapour fraction", so the more sub cooling, the more of the main liquid stream to evaporate "latent heat" for cooling what you want cool.
    The first thing the liquid has to do before it can cool the product, is to cool it self down, this done by reducing the pressure in the first instance, and then by evaporating part of the total liquid mass to cool the remained of the liquid mass. You are familiar with a PT chart, now try a PH chart which brings energy content into the equation.
    Because the energy removed during the sub cooling process, is more efficient than the original LT rack, then a energy input saving is made.

    Does liquid sub cooling change compression ratio, yes and no (not the answer that you want), because your mass flow can be reduced and your surface area/flow remains constant, then your LMTD increases, there for a lower compression ratio is required to meet the new equilibrium, but if the cond fans are controlled, then discharge will remain constant, because you are adjust the LMTD to meet a fixed process variable (yes it is fixed but could be a variable) In the instance of a high pressure drop evap, SST normally rises, as the pressure drop through the evap reduces as less flash gas enters, and as you know per mass, vapour causes a greater pressure drop compared to the same mass of liquid through said pipe.
    But if the evap is a low pressure drop evap and has not been circuited to low flash gas, then performance of the evap can drop because in-sufficent turbulence occurs at the beginning of the evap reducing dramatically the heat transfer co-efficient. Which then of course drop the outlet saturated pressure/temp, lowing the compressor suction and increasing the compression ratio.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    lol thats all I can say about him at this point, I comemerate you on your patience mad, perhaps at some point he'll grasp the concept.


    As for you op: go find a pdf on Building an efficient system, on the benifits of slhx on R-12 and hydrocarbon blended systems, and on active subcooling systems.

    perhaps if you read it your self and see the picturs it may help.

    tried to make it simpler and put them here but allas a 100kb limmit is kinda antiquidated

    fyi I think you need to school your self considerably more befor you could even begin to try with us here "mate"

    Atm the mods are showing you mercy and giving you a chance to redeem your self, do not waste it, other wise you will get learn the difference ells where!!
    Last edited by The MG Pony; 28-07-2013 at 06:11 AM.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I will ignore your rants, however you do ask some good questions, that some may fear to ask. (but the answer can be simple or as complicated as you wish)

    In simple terms, sub cooling changes the ratio of liquid boiling/vaporizing which is used for net refrigeration effect. In the evap this called "vapour fraction", so the more sub cooling, the more of the main liquid stream to evaporate "latent heat" for cooling what you want cool.
    The first thing the liquid has to do before it can cool the product, is to cool it self down, this done by reducing the pressure in the first instance, and then by evaporating part of the total liquid mass to cool the remained of the liquid mass. You are familiar with a PT chart, now try a PH chart which brings energy content into the equation.
    Because the energy removed during the sub cooling process, is more efficient than the original LT rack, then a energy input saving is made.

    Does liquid sub cooling change compression ratio, yes and no (not the answer that you want), because your mass flow can be reduced and your surface area/flow remains constant, then your LMTD increases, there for a lower compression ratio is required to meet the new equilibrium, but if the cond fans are controlled, then discharge will remain constant, because you are adjust the LMTD to meet a fixed process variable (yes it is fixed but could be a variable) In the instance of a high pressure drop evap, SST normally rises, as the pressure drop through the evap reduces as less flash gas enters, and as you know per mass, vapour causes a greater pressure drop compared to the same mass of liquid through said pipe.
    But if the evap is a low pressure drop evap and has not been circuited to low flash gas, then performance of the evap can drop because in-sufficent turbulence occurs at the beginning of the evap reducing dramatically the heat transfer co-efficient. Which then of course drop the outlet saturated pressure/temp, lowing the compressor suction and increasing the compression ratio.
    ....edited...
    Well executed perfectly said an excellent response thank you that's all I wanted from you to begin with, I understood it all and never thought about it that way.....
    Last edited by Peter_1; 28-07-2013 at 08:43 AM. Reason: personally and sarcastic post

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Oh, Ding Ding....Round 2 and i missed the start.
    MG pony is correct Ryan, You have evaded the noose so far.
    I can only guess that some of your comments, after skimming over the derogatory sections, shows you have the ability to resolve technical issues, and that might add points in your favour.
    Communication with colleagues and having an open mind is sadly lagging.
    BTW, you are damn lucky to have Mad F responding to your posts....
    Last edited by mikeref; 28-07-2013 at 08:37 AM. Reason: ........
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    The world is simply a mirror, reflecting back to us our own inner state. If we are inwardly in turmoil then we are certain to see a tumultuous world. A seemingly joyous world is only returning to us our own inward joy. What we see is a reflection of our state of consciousness.

    What type of world do you live in rjsinoz?
    MS, I had to insert this in Google Translate to be sure I fully understood this phrases. Wise words and so true
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_1 View Post
    MS, I had to insert this in Google Translate to be sure I fully understood this phrases. Wise words and so true
    Knowing another language is way beyond me. Apart from a few words and sentences in Japanese that my youngest daughter taught me.
    Using on-line translation seems to make a mess of: Dutch/ Hebrew/ Italian... and.....IRISH
    Sorry Al and Stufus.
    OFF TOPIC..
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    ..edited...

    d by Peter_1; 28-07-2013 at*05:43 PM.*Reason:*personally and sarcastic post

    No it wasnt actuall if u read it carefully i refered to him as MR MAD Mr being key word here the rest was because i was laughing at his quick aNd excellent response i thought good on you. it didnt take 10 posts to have him tell me how it is....
    Just me not many people will get much more respect than that off me.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    I Last edited by mikeref; 28-07-2013 at*05:37 PM.*Reason:*........
    What is the reason

    And peter is so right your inspirational monkey........
    so anyways who wants to chat about my next question whats the.state of the liquid in an accumulator
    Hahahaha

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    I hope you are better fridgey than you are a con,considering my understanding of being a good crook is to evade the law and avoid "the clink".
    I'm starting to wonder if this is a cry for help, surely it could not have been easy to repeatedly pick up the soap for Big Bob and the bitches.
    I can't begin to Imagine how irritable it must be to have an arse-hole like a fresh bullet wound.
    Wishing you all the best in your search for love (post clink) and your obvious quest for redemtion and salvation.

    Cheers

    Stu
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Ask him ....What??
    Sorry, didn't catch that. Did you ask how he managed to avoid.....while picking up the soap?
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Meh, stufus posted before i had finished my question. So? About the soap...
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    one more thing jail was terrible, cant stress that enough.....
    16hours a day locked down (NSW)
    smallest meals you have ever seen
    tiny little cells
    everyone wants to fight to prove who is the toughest.
    very limited amount of people have money ie everyone bludges smokes

    but every now and agian id meet a bloke just like Santa Claus, ....

    jail made me a stronger person in the end but i was only in for 20 months, ask yourself Santa, reckon you could do it
    for 1 stop a loved one from getting hurt and doing what needs to be done and 2 stand up for your self while in the presence of some very bad men, somehow i think evryone reading this post and even you know you couldnt cause you are a little coward.....
    Last edited by Peter_1; 28-07-2013 at 04:09 PM.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Listen mate you can sling all the flack you want in my direction ,What make's you so sure I know little about prison??
    My interjection into this thread was late, agreed !! Due to the fact I've been working away all week and not had the time to read up.
    Am I a fridgey ??? Not really relevant to the direction I was heading in this conversation.
    So your a ****ing hero ,and a legend in your own underpants. We'll done you, Can't knock you for standing up for your family. Kudos
    But neither your knowledge on refrigeration or your inflated ego cut the mustard with me .To be honest I couldn't give a flying ****.
    For what it's worth I'm a lot bigger looking when you're looking up from the flat of your back.
    I'm sure you are aware size counts for nothing in a street fight.
    But 22yrs of mugendo ,19yrs of Kyokushin and 13 yrs of Muay Thai certainly do.
    I'd much rather be called a coward than a ****ing bellend.
    Idle threats mean nowt to me.
    You want to carry on your keyboard warrior campaign, knock yourself out ,but at least have the dignity to take the replies on board.
    BTW we can all plagiarize if the need arises.
    Oh with regard to the Big Bob thing weather you are a giver or a receiver ,that's up to you !!!

    Cheers

    Stu
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Stu!
    I heard it was your charges that were criminal!
    Only joking I guess the holiday feeling has worn off.
    Hopefully the working away is a good omen?
    I have been doing the same all week in Cornwall (which is nice!) Sadly in a fish processing factory.
    Only to be told Friday we have been awarded a contract in a chicken processing factory.
    Enough to put one off their food.
    I can't speak for others but this hot weather has us all running around and busy!
    Musn't grumble!

    Have a Guinness and raise a glass to those of us that know what we are doing!
    Grizzly

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Will do Grizzly ,

    You know me I'm a bit of a C.S.I Can't . Stand . Idiots

    I'd imagine all 6'3 of the OP is currently sweating ,while trying to come up with a witty or most probably abusive reply.
    Gives me something to do of a Sunday afternoon.

    Cheers

    Stu
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    When your on your knees you'll no the difference
    Hey ask all your friend on the website wh[o sounds like the ****** in the last 5 post and thats comparing you with me ha have a think about that answer go on big kung fu man
    And grizzly if this moron Carries on like this how good could he possibly be at anything....
    Show me one statement.t besides the sheet metal question which I got wrong
    Last edited by frank; 29-07-2013 at 02:02 PM.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    I think there is non condensables in this thread "head pressure is rising"

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Sorry for the cards you have been dealt in the past.
    But we all have issues of some sort and believe me.

    If you wish to ever survive this personalised tirade of your making.
    You need to realise that We help each other where we can and don't dis others if at all possible!
    My friends on here have in the past been very helpful!


    So like you say you had good reason for your past actions.

    May I point out that there are many that may well be able to help you in the future.
    But tell me why given your present responses, why they should.
    If you don't like the party Leave!
    Or raise a 4x and chill!

    Grizzly
    Last edited by frank; 29-07-2013 at 02:00 PM.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Hi Ryan,

    I did take it as compliment, not that i am after the glory or the insults.

    There was difference between the 2 questions, the second being definable, and at that stage have feel on your knowledge,
    your first question/statement because it was related to specific data was not definable, as the data could have been wrong. This then becomes a technical discussion then floats through various subjects, you will find on this site these do not need to become aggressive, even if opinions differ, as they should!
    It would seem you have some level feel and passion for the industry (as most do on this forum), so I ask you to follow my kids advice "take a chill pill"

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    Sweating a bit there Ryan ???
    I don't recall actually saying anyone was raped !!
    Maybe it was just the way you interpreted it , a bit like the advice the other posters offered you , you interpreted that to suit your own end.
    Now really ,come on , do you think the man who chose to stab someone three times is in any sort of position to accuse others of being a cowards.
    And don't worry about my ability ,I'm well able to hold my own.
    The jury is still out on your's .
    But you are keeping me amused at the moment.

    Surely you can do better than that??

    Cheers
    Stu
    Last edited by frank; 29-07-2013 at 02:02 PM.
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    I ran a server with what I called script skiddies like you, oh how they bragged of how they'd hack my server and erase it, crash it, put a viruse on it, and it did tend to lend me much joy of leting them into a VM and let them think they succeded just so I could ban them again.

    So that was my own low end lazy day hobby, here you are dealing with a real place, if you even had a net connection by the end of it I'd be suprised

    Lay off the glue / refrigerent / petrol / beer / self ritious delusions and sit back and get a clue, you are digging faster then we can lower the ladder for ya!

    perhaps it is time to go live up a mountain for a few years and reflect on your life! for me it was a refreshing experiance all 5 yeras of it with just my dogs and my tools and precious little ells!
    Last edited by The MG Pony; 29-07-2013 at 12:32 AM.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    An entertaining post to be sure but all I can say is.....Thank god I'm pure........(LOL)

    Ryan, hopefully some day life will teach you some humility, I think you would benefit from it.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    I've never known a thread where so many Mods have had to intervene so much

    Congrats to the posters for showing such restraint.

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    Re: saturated conditions in a receiver tank PROVE ME WRONG

    it it going to be a sticky thread?? haha
    Quote Originally Posted by frank View Post
    I've never known a thread where so many Mods have had to intervene so much

    Congrats to the posters for showing such restraint.

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