Travel Time

[hawks]

Do employers pay travel from the service technicians home to the customers site. I feel they should.

Just wondering what others think about this.

[Tesla]

Some refrigeration companies do during normal time and almost all do for call outs or after hours work. You are right - they should pay it for all normal time work that is not to or from the office. This is one of the rights we are loosing over time. We need to demand it from these guys getting rich off our skilled labour.

[r.bartlett]

Do employers pay travel from the service technicians home to the customers site. I feel they should.

Just wondering what others think about this.

Do the office staff get paid travel time ?

[hawks]

No because they transport ipods and 1/4 sized sandwiches to work.

[install monkey]

office staff are usually salary based and they have to fund theyre own transport costs, as usually theyre overpaid **** wits- the office is theyre place of work, our place of work is different customer sites so we get paid travel time , our gaff we have to donate 30 mins day and evening as charity travel, call outs are paid door to door

[hookster]

install monkey!!
In the UK if you get travel paid and fuel to your first place of work you are actually liable for the tax on this!
Nobody gets paid on top of their salaries to travel to work without paying the tax as a benefit...Don't shoot me its the law!!

There is a lot of grey area in how a service engineer is based as this opens up a lot of understandings on the operation of mobile service. The simple solution for most companies is to assume a reasonable work travel to your first place of work. (first site or office) This is the 30 mins install monkey gives up to work and 30 mins home. That is actually a very reasonable assumption as most people do not live and work within a 30 mins radius and actually you are still using company fuel when actually you should be taxed unless you put your own fuel in for this travel.

All other travel during working day or call out is chargeable and paid.
As r.b says most people do not get paid to get to work.

[Grizzly]

Erm!
Most people adopt a reasonable attitude towards what they are paid for.
Office staff have different conditions to those of us that are mobile.
They don't normally get paid for travel. But then again they don't average between 500 and 1100 miles a week!
Your terms and conditions are what makes the difference between employers nowadays.
How you perceive them is up to you!
In answer to the basic question and already well covered.
Some pay overtime and others flat rate with o/time out of hours responding to a call out.
However there are as stated huge variations within our industry.

Only you as an individual can decide what is acceptable a reasonable employee can usually reach an amicable agreement.
Grizzly

[install monkey]

yes, the fuel card puts 500quid a year off ur tax bill, the vehicle is only tax free if you do not use it for any private mileage- got a tracker too- but theres nothing like sorting out your jobs to ensure the last job is furthest away and taking the scenic route home.

[hookster]

always better to manage your mileage yourself!
Its only when that one person screws it up for the rest that the tax office asks the office for breakdowns, then its a minefield and everyone pissed off!

That call from HMRC to an office requesting 5 years worth of records and accountability for travel and payments!! .............Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......the shivering starts already!
(Dear Mr tax man/Woman if you reading this please concentrate on Starbucks and Amazon they have far more to give )

[r.bartlett]

No because they transport ipods and 1/4 sized sandwiches to work.

Is that the best you can do?

[r.bartlett]

Erm!
Most people adopt a reasonable attitude towards what they are paid for.
Office staff have different conditions to those of us that are mobile.
They don't normally get paid for travel. But then again they don't average between 500 and 1100 miles a week!
Your terms and conditions are what makes the difference between employers nowadays.
How you perceive them is up to you!
In answer to the basic question and already well covered.
Some pay overtime and others flat rate with o/time out of hours responding to a call out.
However there are as stated huge variations within our industry.

Only you as an individual can decide what is acceptable a reasonable employee can usually reach an amicable agreement.
Grizzly

Look at any railway station at 8.00 in the morning and it is full of commuters self funding their way into work and traveling in their own time. Newbury is crammed full of London bound which is a round trip of 140 miles - or 700 miles a week


That as an argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid..

Engineers somehow believe they should be given special treatment from other employees

[install monkey]

without engineers, theres no office gimps!- its there own preference if they wanna get squashed on trains and pay daft prices for rail tickets- maybe if they were a lil more mechanically minded and less clever they could be engineers and get paid to travel- apologies brian for my grammer

[Grizzly]

Look at any railway station at 8.00 in the morning and it is full of commuters self funding their way into work and traveling in their own time. Newbury is crammed full of London bound which is a round trip of 140 miles - or 700 miles a week


That as an argument doesn't hold water I'm afraid..

Engineers somehow believe they should be given special treatment from other employees

RB.
We all do what we have to do to earn a shilling.
What I have stated is the industry standard for what I do.
If your guys don't get travel time then fair enough!
You I have some other form of incentive to keep staff I assume.
I accepted the terms I am on when I joined my present company, they have changed when

I will react is depending upon what options are available.

They don't give me the terms I have because they love me. they
ffered because others are willing to offer them.
It is not a fair argument to state that engineers expect special treatment.
have plenty of family who are admin or office based. Who all earn a lot more than me.
Especially those in the home counties.
I do however expect some recognition for my many years of experience and continued learning.
My company cost me out at overtime rates for travel outside of normal hours.
I however irrespective of what hour it is, am paid at flat rate for travel.
When called out I get paid at overtime rate, which is still less than that I am being charged out at.

Whatever my rate it is acceptable to me and my employer is making money which is what it is all about is it not.

The problem comes, as I see it when you have contracts that have been won on a shoestring and the only one left to squeeze is the engineer!
Because as you state you can't squeeze the office staff anymore.

We all are being treated more and more as a commodity.
As I have tried to state I don't want to create a conflict with my employer.
Sadly there are more and more who think because someone is office based they are superior to the guy on the tools.
I have huge respect for you and a good few others on this forum who make rational and sensible fiscal decision regularly.
In fact the fact that you are on the forum Say's it all really!

From a personal point. I would not be able to continue doing the job I love if many more of my conditions are changed.

Grizzly

[r.bartlett]

without engineers, theres no office gimps!- its there own preference if they wanna get squashed on trains and pay daft prices for rail tickets- maybe if they were a lil more mechanically minded and less clever they could be engineers and get paid to travel- apologies brian for my grammer

Without office staff you'd be sitting at home without a job -it's a two way street.

You may resent them for what they do but like accountants and lawyers, admin staff are a necessary evil.

[install monkey]

but office staff are an overhead- engineers are the ones who do the job,and bring the money in! ,the quicker theyre replaced by computers the better ! and yes RB im getting sick of pulling them out the crap, but hey ho the grass isn't always greener!

Without office staff you'd be sitting at home without a job

You may resent them for what they do but like accountants and lawyers, admin staff are a necessary evil.

[Moneyhell]

Sheesh, this thread was quite interesting until it turned into another 'office vs engineers', fight, fight, fight

The differences in travel time for different companies have been well explained and ultimately, comes down to the point about the T&C's you as an individual accept.

Regarding office vs engineers, come on, everyone has a role to play. No engineers, no business. No admin, no invoicing, no business.

Peace

[Grizzly]

Without office staff you'd be sitting at home without a job -it's a two way street.

You may resent them for what they do but like accountants and lawyers, admin staff are a necessary evil.

Spoken by a man that understands both sides of the fence!
The best and only form of management really.
However and I believe this is the brunt of IM'S arguement.
The divide between management and workers is being forced wider by those that don't have your attributes.
Sadly!!
To understand fully takes experiance!

Grizzly

[r.bartlett]

RB.
We all do what we have to do to earn a shilling.
What I have stated is the industry standard for what I do.
If your guys don't get travel time then fair enough!

My guys have always got door to door at the applicable rate but I may need to speak to our accountant based on the taxible perk status mentioned.

You I have some other form of incentive to keep staff I assume.
I accepted the terms I am on when I joined my present company, they have changed when

I will react is depending upon what options are available.

They don't give me the terms I have because they love me. they
offered because others are willing to offer them.
It is not a fair argument to state that engineers expect special treatment.
have plenty of family who are admin or office based. Who all earn a lot more than me.
Especially those in the home counties.

Engineers have lost the respect of it being a real trade when the Japanese came in a de-skilled it with their splits. Before then we were considered a black science and other trades would not touch it. The higher end engineers (such as you) should have kept that but sadly through short sightedness and the lack of cohesive action those were dragged down too.

The supermarkets have exploited this by driving down the market and the numerous fridge companies who have gone bust chasing the rate down only made things worse. If the trade had stuck together 20 years ago and refused to co-operate by insisting on a decent rate and recognition for the skillset (whilst ensuring the skill set was held) then we would all be in a better position.

I do however expect some recognition for my many years of experience and continued learning.
My company cost me out at overtime rates for travel outside of normal hours.
I however irrespective of what hour it is, am paid at flat rate for travel.
When called out I get paid at overtime rate, which is still less than that I am being charged out at.

Whatever my rate it is acceptable to me and my employer is making money which is what it is all about is it not.

As I say I cannot hide my dismay how easily we have let ourselves be downtrodden. Ironically F-Gas could (and should) have been the push back but the resistance from within the trade decreases the potential for engineers to get their true worth (whatever that may be?)

The problem comes, as I see it when you have contracts that have been won on a shoestring and the only one left to squeeze is the engineer!
Because as you state you can't squeeze the office staff anymore.

Decent management will also look at the office staff levels to see if savings can be made. Of course it may not be apparent to those out on the road

We all are being treated more and more as a commodity.

Self inflicted by our own trade

As I have tried to state I don't want to create a conflict with my employer.
Sadly there are more and more who think because someone is office based they are superior to the guy on the tools.

This is a post industrial hang up. 100+ years ago hands on trades were considered as the most valued. ‘Hero’s’ of the day were IK Brunel, Stevenson, Watt etc. Those able to work with their hands help build the empire and made Britain great.

As wealth grew so did education. Most parents want more for their children then they managed. Therefore if you worked hard your Child may get a better education and perhaps go to university. That was considered something to be very proud of, the chances of a university educated person considering a hands on trade was slight.

So as the balance of recognition drifted from hands on to hands off was largely the responsibility of the workers

This in time has only got worse where now kids aspire to be famous as it’s all ‘reality stars’. Hero’s are considered those who can run 100m in under 10 seconds. Usain Bolt contributes absolutely nothing yet ‘earns’ huge amounts far beyond anyone here will ever get. Go figure..

I have huge respect for you and a good few others on this forum who make rational and sensible fiscal decision regularly.
In fact the fact that you are on the forum Say's it all really!

From a personal point. I would not be able to continue doing the job I love if many more of my conditions are changed.

Grizzly

Grizz, this isn’t me having a pop at you (especially you) or anyone else here. I despair a Ford dealer can charge up to £100 PH to change oil when your company probably struggles to bill £50 for you..

I had an argument with a manager of a dental practice as she was adamant £35 PH was outrageous. I suggested what a dentist charged was far more offensive but she considered them ‘worthy’ of their lifestyle and resented us getting by on a lot less (she also suggested we were not worth what a plumber earned either)

It’s all in our own hands to make the trade a better place. Sadly we are our own worse enemies

[Grizzly]

It’s all in our own hands to make the trade a better place. Sadly we are our own worse enemies

We can by discussing the terms etc.
It is a slow process but one day the pendulum will swing back.
Whether we are here to see it is another question.

[hawks]

Office workers do not transport things such as class 2.3 gasses, class 3 flamable liquids, class 2.0 toxic gasses and class 8 chemicals to a customers site, nor do they transport things such as safety equipment and lifting equipment, parts and employers machinery.

They also do not remove things from site such as waste oils and refrigerants and old parts and rubbish which are a hazard if left on a customers site.

Office workers perform no work duties prior to reaching the employers front door, and after the point they leave the front door.

In Australia a workplace includes a employer owned work vehicle it is in the WH&S act 2012, section 8.

[r.bartlett]

Office workers do not transport things such as class 2.3 gasses, class 3 flamable liquids, class 2.0 toxic gasses and class 8 chemicals to a customers site, nor do they transport things such as safety equipment and lifting equipment, parts and employers machinery.

They also do not remove things from site such as waste oils and refrigerants and old parts and rubbish which are a hazard if left on a customers site.

Office workers perform no work duties prior to reaching the employers front door, and after the point they leave the front door.

In Australia a workplace includes a employer owned work vehicle it is in the WH&S act 2012, section 8.

i can send you copies of emails from many office workers who send me emails from home -before and after work- and also at the weekend...

point in question:

From: Sean P
Sent: 25 November 2012 18:05
To: Richard Bartlett
Cc: Richard B
Subject: RE:

Hi Rich.

I have forwarded this on to Emma to take care of,

Cheers,

Sean.

[charlie patt]

WOW you can tell who run and own companies and who are staff..... unless you are on your own you will need office staff without office staff noone would chase bills sort out method statements get the insurance sorted like above says one feeds of the other just as long as the tree does not get to top heavy how many office staff could fit a comp and how many engineers can work sage? getting back to the original question i believe a engineer should be paid door to door but in nowadays enviroment it is not cost effective out of hrs different mater always door to door but it depends on distance and contract if you dont like where you are move its your choice

[Tesla]

I can see the attitude of the type of boss I would avoid like a ten foot barge pole here. Not all bosses think like that though they remember where they come from. At any rate when I step into the work vehicle and turn the key to go to a job or from a job I am working and should get paid for it. This is like the boss who quotes four hours for a job then it takes two hours - do you really think that boss is going to give the money back or say to the tech "ahhh have the last two hours off for free".

[monkey spanners]

Where i used to work the owner had a consultant out to advise. Next we were told we had to leave the vans in the works yard and make our own way there and back in our own time. I would normally only go to the yard once a week or two for parts etc or if passing.

Fine we all said, we'd buy an old car between us and share the cost of travel. We'd all be at the yard the same time in the morning and back there at the same time to leave. Then it dawned on the boss that he would have to do all the out of hours work and all the weekend standby's... So that was the last of that!

Seems to me that no matter how or what you are paid for or how that figure is arived at you still need the same in your pocket at the end of the week to live on. Some employers will always try and work out ways to avoid paying for work done, just as some employees will try and work out ways to be paid for work the didn't do.

[NB12]

As far as im concerned im at work as soon as im in the companies van. The working lifestyle is completely different for office workers, they know where they are going and coming home from every day and at what time. Have access to tea/coffee facilities, toilets all day. Never work 100+ hours in a week, in fact I doubt any other trade does what we do. The works vehicle is part of the tool kit.

[The Viking]

Office staff...

Ba humbug I say!


.

[hawks]

without office staff noone would chase bills sort out method statements get the insurance sorted

Insurance is another issue with traveling from private residence to the customers site, are other techs on here covered by workers compensation from the home to the customers site.

[hawks]

As far as im concerned im at work as soon as im in the companies van.

Workplace standards in Australia state I have to carry out a risk assesment prior to using the vehicle as its a workplace, I also must carry out any adjustments prior to using the vehicle, I also perform other work duties for example some customers have online safety inductions, I dont have a office so I have to do those online inductions from home prior to getting onto site as the customer will not allow access without the induction certificates, I also recieve phone calls and emails at home with job details, i also have to call the customers and arrange times prior to leaving my home, and have to download and print out things such as work permits and work method statements, so I think the start of work is well before getting into the vehicle.

[djbe]

Interesting thread this.

In my mind, irrespective of what hmrc says! A lot of it hinges on what the company that you work for charges.

For example if your first job in the morning is 1.5 hrs travel from your house but only .5 hrs from your office does the customer get charged 1.5 or .5 hrs.? Whatever it is you should get paid from then. I would guess .5hrs otherwise the customer would play up.

But equally if you lived .5hrs from the customer but the office was 1.5 hrs away....... what would they charge then? If they had any sense 1.5 hrs and you should be entitled to the hrs you book on your timesheet.

It also depends if you are classed as working from your home base.

I appreciate the arguement that the office workers do not get paid for their travel but. there is also not the potential for there travel or labour to be booked out directly either. Office and support staff labour are paid for by the product of the company be that engineers or product that they sell.

If the worst comes to the worst as monkey spanners said, buy a cheap car and leave the van at the office. Get in for your contracted time every day to pick the van up and make sure you drop it back at your contracted finish time. Outside these times show willing and respond to queries by email as the office staff would. Hey ho, you are part of the TEAM!!

Don't get me wrong I am not a left wing union type. I have my own business and employ staff, but I believe a bit of common sense and fairness must prevail in instances like this from both sides.

[chilliwilly]

The job I have just recently quit after over 5 years (well actually jumped before I was pushed), paid you from your front door back to it. During the week you were paid flat rate for the first 7.5 hours and then x1.28 whether you was travelling or working. Other firms in the same discipline paid you x1.5 hours but only if your working, and then flate rate for travelling.

Like djbe posts, are the company being honest with the customer if they are not paying you for the first 30 minutes, but charging them for the time you have clocked on form your home from using tracking data that has no regular checking for accuracy or calibration, unlike the old punch clocks. Only for you to be accused you are stll at home at 12:30, when in fact your probably on your second job.

At my last company there was a chimp who was allowed to sit in a managers chair who used to pick up a job on the way home so he could book down travelling time on his way home in his BMW. And he also gets overtime for working weekends, and chooses the weekend jobs close to where he lives as there is a £25.00 site attendance on top of the overtime. Then the poor guy on standby is given a job averaging 3 hours away and will only get 1x £25.00 bonus, and then cannot attend an emergency call local to him due to the time spent on the job. It gets done the next day after the customer is left to wait. Just of the many things he his allowed to get away with, but no one can understand how or why.

[leegally1983]

This is getting heated lol, heres my pennies worth engineers should get paid travel from their door to site as the companies charge the customers for it so it should be passed on. Office staff don't get travel but lets face it do they have to get up at 5am some morning travel 400 mile round trips? not likely I think full travel was a great benefit but know is being taken away by many companies as a "cost saving" but the fact is they doing it to increase profit margins as they being screwed down by customers on other things. Now I have been a engineer and now work in the office so I resent comments about office staff not being needed that's harsh without us there would be no contracts to work on customer demand is very high these days H&S, Admin, FGAS Compliance, Quotations, contract renewals etc none of this can be done by a mobile engineer and most of us don't go into the office because they are not mechanically minded if personal preference some people like being engineers for the rest of their lives some what different challenges so they move along in to management although there are some clowns in offices but haven't you met some bad engineers?. I am a big believer in keeping a high moral with the engineers as they fix the problems and are in front of customers all day so the way they act has a massive effect on the companies image so I certainly would upset my engineers by something so small as travel time

[1mikeefc1]

Office staff also aren't expected to answer the phone after 5pm whereas service engineers are still out working at that time with god knows how many more jobs to do, this is just part of our job just like commuting to an air conditioned office with comfy chairs and decent rest breaks are part of the lazy, condescending unable to read maps properly office staff. Oops might have vented a bit at the end there.

[leegally1983]

think you will find some office staff have to answer their phone all day and all night to customers and engineers difference is when the engineers working late they are getting time and half / double time what are we getting? jack sh*t that's what

[1mikeefc1]

So train up and become an engineer not an office monkey, also you will find that engineers can also have the phone 24hrs and only be paid time and half if called out not just to answer the phone. Get your facts straight and find a refrigeration office monkey forum.

[Grizzly]

A female member of the office staff who was rushed off her feet trying to process all the invoices for "End of the Month".
Advised me that "She did not have time to sort my customers query regarding some immanent work, as she needed to get the invoices processed. Or else there would be no Money coming into the Branch!"

I replied that "We all have a part to play, because if I did not do the work in the first place.
There would be nothing to invoice!
So could I please have an answer to my customers query!"

It still applies that We all have a part to play, It's just many forget that!

Yes it can be pretty lonely out there in the field!

Directives usually are generated within Office Hours!
Reality is within a longer time scale than that!
Grizzly.

[1mikeefc1]

I agree completely but I get more and more annoyed by office staff whining about how good we have it, I don't see them up a ladder in the rain parked 20 minutes away and having to empty the contents of the van. I was once told by one member of office staff that all we do is flick switches and drink brews. Refrigeration engineers are multi skilled engineers with vast experience in electrical, plumbing,fitting,cleaning,electronic, and gas handling these aren't even including the driving, multitasking and liaising side of the job ( add baby sitting if theres an apprentice)and as such should be respected, this is why we get paid the money we are on and get the perks we do.

[Grizzly]

Hi Mikee.
So Much Anger, My Friend!

Sadly yours is not an uncommon complaint.
We all and I mean all are being squeezed, it's not nice is it.

Question. "Do you Love your job?"
Answer. "Depends when you ask me!"

Hang in there.
I love the idea that you may have an apprentice.
How many of us double up?
That's why there is such a skills shortage nowadays.
I have colleagues who I would like to be able to train on some of the kit I work on.
Guess what not enough in the job for 2 engineers! Sound Familiar?

Even the apprentice will soon be costed out at full rate.
Mind those of us that have done the time will still be in demand because of it.

You carry on fighting your corner, to many roll over.
I don't mean necessarily arguing or moaning.
That does not achieve much.
Just a gentle reminder that Good Engineers are not 10 a penny!

I had 2 guys doing a new job.
One demanded more money from the start and the other after 2 weeks reckoned he had got the hang of the job.
So would there be any chance of more money for doing this new task?
Guess who got the pay rise?

Grizzly

[1mikeefc1]

Hi grizzly, I've got to say about 90percent of the time I do love my job but I'm fortunate to be in the job I like, I do try not to get wound up but sometimes my fuseable does go and I have to just step back for a while. Going back a couple of years I realised there is no point shouting balling and arguing with bosses but just to play at their own game and have since managed to chill more.


cheers for the advice/support mike.

[leegally1983]

So train up and become an engineer not an office monkey, also you will find that engineers can also have the phone 24hrs and only be paid time and half if called out not just to answer the phone. Get your facts straight and find a refrigeration office monkey forum.

I think you need to get your FACTS straight I have done both jobs been a engineer and worked all over Europe fixing air conditioning/refrigeration and now work as a contracts manager so I know both sides of the argument which you obviously don't, I would love for you to talk to your managers like that instead of sitting behind a computer anomalously

[FreezerGeezer]

Basically, the customer is unlikely to take their entire refrigeration / chilled water / DX A/C system out & bring it to our workshop, right?
So, travelling to (& often from if it's a long drive) is part of the job. Therefore the customer should pay for it. And therefore we should be paid to provide that service.
The fairest system I worked under (IMO) was @ a multinational. I don't know about other branches, but we gave the co. half an hour each end of the day, all other travel was 1.5T. If you travelled more than 100miles & the job was more than a day, you had the option of staying away allowance or commuting on 1.5T. BUT, you were expected to do your full 8 hours on site.

The argument about London commuters is a bit apples & oranges due to London Weighting & other incentives. In my wife's case, the firm subsidised (or paid for, I can't remember) their annual tickets. They did have to pay benefit in kind tax on it. But hey, we do on our co. vehicles.
Additionally very few of us have a fixed place of work. @ the above mentioned firm, my branch covered the whole southern UK from a line east to west coast through Banbury, down to & including the Channel Islands. How many office based staff cover that every day? Even here in Oz, I do less than half the milage I did in the UK - and Qld alone is 7 TIMES the size of the entire UK!

[jdunc2301]

It’s the career you chose, engineers should be paid door to door, travel time at standard and time on site (working) at overtime...if applicable. This isn't always the case, my office is 30mins away and they expect me to give them 30 mins in the morning and 30 at night.... all customers are charged travel too and from the office not where I live, so if I work 5 hrs from the office the customer is charged 5 hrs travel and im paid 4.5. On the other hand if the customer is in the same town as me they still get charged 30 mins and I just leave the house 30 mins later and still get paid...waste of diesel driving to the office to come back.
The office staff don’t get paid travel, however generally they have fixed working hours that they can depend on 9-5, our hours can change…I have cancelled many nights out etc because a call comes in and I’m already on site etc, the fact I’m being paid doesn’t come into it, the unexpected calls are disruptive to day to day life…and the Mrs gets on my back. Generally most ACR engineers won’t have holidays in the depths of winter and heights of summer…this is an unwritten rule about booking holiday…. Office staff also benefit from a fixed place of work, comfortable environment, welfare facilities la di da…

I think the door to door is important, we chose to do an apprenticeship, washing vans, cup o tea boss?! Day to day hours can change, the weather can be a *******, pissing in a bush on the side of the road, getting covered in oil and **** and then being customer facing at 2am when the production line is down. It’s a little reward...also come 50-60yrs old all our joints will be gone.

We don’t complain about being engineers it was our choice and door to door is a benefit, without us the office has no income, likewise if the office don’t sell, market, quote and invoice….we don’t do anything and don’t get paid, both are necessary to function. I will say however that an office managed by former engineers is the best set up… administrators and management who have no concept of on the tools can be dangerous and they look at engineers as grease monkeys, and view themselves as superior……….my office ordered me a nice big expansion vessel from plumb centre, I wanted a TEV…..feck only knows how they got that wrong.

[The Viking]

Does it really matter???




You look ate the work your employer expect you to do and you balance that against the benefits, including salary, they offer.

If company A pays door to door but only pay you a flat rate of £10/hr with no added benefits, gives you an old beaten up van to drive around in and rarely accept overtime claims are they really better to work for than company B that only pays on site hours but all overtime are payed at £15/hr promptly without arguments, pays for your pension/health care and gives you a new shiny 4x4 to drive around in (not to mention Friday afternoons off and an extra weeks holiday)?

No, you can't just look at one single part of your package to determine if it is a good one or not, the balance between good and evil in the end of the year is what matters.



.

[1mikeefc1]

I think you need to get your FACTS straight I have done both jobs been a engineer and worked all over Europe fixing air conditioning/refrigeration and now work as a contracts manager so I know both sides of the argument which you obviously don't, I would love for you to talk to your managers like that instead of sitting behind a computer anomalously

i say exactly what I think to them as I will to you!! Whining on about getting jack sh!t for answering the phone aaww boo hoo, obviously you failed to hack in engineering or you thought it was better to be sat behind the real workers answering phones. If you've been an engineer you would understand what is more frustrating getting a phone call or being out at daft o'clock.
Pas for talking to people to their face try talking to an engineer about how crap answering a call is and you will be put well in your place!!

[FreezerGeezer]

I've been both sides of be fence. My current bosses still straddle the fence - we're a small firm started by engineers & still owned by them, so it's all hands to whatever pump needs it.
Until you've done it yourself, I don't think you're qualified to make generalisations.

Yes, there are rubbish office staff. At one firm, it was a running joke that we kept passing each other en route to jobs local to each other's homes!
Then there's the companies where you make sure you keep copies of all your paperwork for when you get the frequent call to say they haven't got the originals.
Or the firm where I first went office-side. I soon discovered quite a lot of the 'missing' original job sheets in the filing system - under the wrong name, in duplicated folders, or just in the wrong place because the person responsible for filing was incompetent. They only filed by the first letter!

The point is, companies are like a large machine, and if one component doesn't perform properly... you know the rest.