Results 1 to 27 of 27
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    torquay vic
    Posts
    11
    Rep Power
    0

    Lightbulb ? about hydrocarbon gas



    i am thinking about starting to learning a bit about hydrocarbon gases to save money. can any one tell me what the difference between r290a and lpg is . can any one tell me why u cant just use pure lpg in a fridge all u would need is a pt chart for it. does lpg have more moister in it
    because from what i can work out it seems to work fine we tried it in a domestic fridge and ran fine for 4 years



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    England
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    27

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    .

    None.

    LPG is Liquid Petroleum Gas, Propane to you and me.
    R290 is high quality 99.5% pure propane.............

    Just don't use LPG in a fridge circuit because it is wet and
    dirty. Before it can be called R290 it must be purified and
    dried, also unpurified LPG has Sulphur in it and Sulphur
    reacts with copper.

    Regards

    Rob

    .
    Last edited by Rob White; 27-11-2012 at 01:20 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    australia
    Posts
    2,222
    Rep Power
    25

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    You also need a license & to know exactlywhat your doing.
    If you don't, go directly to jail.
    What happens if you get a leak?
    What happens if someone comes after you & they don't know whats in it.
    Its highlt flammable.
    You have to take it very seriously, as back yard operators trying to save money are going to hurt people.
    A domestic fridge is not worth woorying about due to very small charge.

    DON'T DO IT UNTIL YOR FULLY TRAINED AND LICENCED

    We all know it works so don't experiment!

    Who are you saving money, you or client?

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    England
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    27

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by RANGER1 View Post
    You also need a license & to know exactlywhat your doing.
    If you don't, go directly to jail.
    What happens if you get a leak?
    What happens if someone comes after you & they don't know whats in it.
    Its highlt flammable.
    You have to take it very seriously, as back yard operators trying to save money are going to hurt people.
    A domestic fridge is not worth woorying about due to very small charge.

    DON'T DO IT UNTIL YOR FULLY TRAINED AND LICENCED

    We all know it works so don't experiment!

    Who are you saving money, you or client?
    That's a good point, but in the UK if the guy holds a safe handling of refrigerants qualification
    (recent one is the F-gas C&G or CITB) he is deemed qualified to work with HC refrigerants.

    He might not be allowed to buy refrigerant grade HC's because the suppliers like people
    to have a HC qualification also but qualified fridge guys in the UK are qualified to work
    with the refrigerant.

    Regards

    Rob

    .

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    australia
    Posts
    2,222
    Rep Power
    25

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob White View Post
    That's a good point, but in the UK if the guy holds a safe handling of refrigerants qualification
    (recent one is the F-gas C&G or CITB) he is deemed qualified to work with HC refrigerants.

    He might not be allowed to buy refrigerant grade HC's because the suppliers like people
    to have a HC qualification also but qualified fridge guys in the UK are qualified to work
    with the refrigerant.

    Regards

    Rob

    .
    Rob,
    Too my understading in Australia you need a different or extra qualification.
    Plumbers here have to be licenced gas fitters to run gas lines, hhok up stoves, hot water systems etc.
    I also think to convert something it requires special expertise as well.
    If it was not purpose built electicals have to be modified as well as ventilation requirements if system is a little larger.
    Its only taking off slowly here as regulations & training have to catch up.
    Obviously as you say refrigerant grade refrigerant is required which is relatively cheap.
    LPG is not suitable for general use in refrigeration.

    I think it is a good refrigerant, but needs to be handled correctly.


    A number of people have been injured or killed just storing mapp gas in their cars, let alone bottles of hydrocarbons.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    England
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    27

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    .

    I'm not sure what it is like in the rest of Europe but in the UK
    if you work with flammable gas for heating purposes then you
    must be Gas Safe qualified (taken every 5 years), so plumbers,
    heating engineers and gas fitters all need that "Gas Safe" qual.

    In refrigeration HC gases are treated just like other refrigerants
    and if you are trained and qualified to work with one then you are
    trained and qualified to work with the other (the exception is Ammonia).

    The training covers the issues regarding HC's flammability but does not
    go into too much detail.

    The suppliers do require us to hold a HC qualification before they will sell
    the stuff to us but that is not strictly enforced everywhere.

    As far as I know (if anyone knows different let me know) as far as I know
    we have not had any real incidents where an engineer was hurt or hurt
    somebody while working with HC's.

    It might be because the system to date are so small that not enough of
    the stuff is present to cause harm, or we are just fantastic or maybe
    we have just been lucky to date

    Regards

    Rob

    .

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Age
    53
    Posts
    1,518
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Everything I have read show sulfur levels in LPG to be quite low but i cannot find any reference to a minimum allowable level for refrigerant grade stuff. Most people I know using R290 filter it through 2 liquid line filters and straight into the system. No idea about the long term effects on the system from this though....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    England
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    27

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Everything I have read show sulfur levels in LPG to be quite low but i cannot find any reference to a minimum allowable level for refrigerant grade stuff. Most people I know using R290 filter it through 2 liquid line filters and straight into the system. No idea about the long term effects on the system from this though....

    I found this.

    http://www.lindeus.com/internet.lg.l...e138_11493.pdf

    Purity

    The quality of commercially available propane (LPG) is very often
    not suitable for refrigeration. The composition varies substantially,
    generally having between 60 and 95% propane. It can have high
    levels of moisture and unsaturated hydrocarbons.
    Impurities such as other hydrocarbons can impact the vapour
    pressure of the product, lowering overall system efficiency. Sulphur
    can cause corrosion, and unsaturated hydrocarbons can react with
    system components. Moisture leads to hydrolysis, corrosion and
    compressor failure.

    R290 is at least 97.5% pure with minimal levels of critical impurities including moisture
    (typically† <10ppm), unsaturated hydrocarbons (typically <0.5%) and
    sulphur. This makes it ideal for use in all types of refrigeration and air
    conditioning systems.



    Regards

    Rob

    .

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    SA
    Posts
    3
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Rather interesting all this about LPG having loads of moisture & sulphur. I have a vehicle that i replaced the R12 with LPG from my barbacue bottle 2 years ago & fitted a new reciever drier. Its still going & works realy well. The vehicle also runs on LPG & at last inspection & test the tank is not coroded inside & passed & so did the copper piping. One wonders if its a scare tactic to buy over priced gas just because its suposedly filtered & dried?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Brisbane australia
    Age
    65
    Posts
    34
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    L P G is a one -off burning process, the worst that can happen ( if you aren't completely stupid, is your steaks finish up raw or turned into charcoal ). With a REFRIGERANT, it a continual reuse system, The amount used in car A/C is only 400 -600 gms, so the chance of contaminants is quite low, However if you use large industrial quantities of any of the HC refrigerants, chance of contamination increases significantly. The freezing point of water (a common contaminent ) is 0c Therefore what happens at zero, -5, -20, etc, The TEV ices up and you get no flow therefore no cooling effect, and a ruined product. Thouands of dollars/pounds lost, What's your insurance cover like ? Alternatively look at Tamehere NZ 5th April 2008 500Kgs of Hychill -50 Exploded and killed a Senior Fire Officer and serious injury to seven others. So the moral of the story is :- Short time monetary gain can have SERIOUS consequences for more than just the engineer working on the plant, How do you think the engineer at Tamehere slept for the weeks following the fire and death of a fireman ?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    89
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by paddy View Post
    \How do you think the engineer at Tamehere slept for the weeks following the fire and death of a fireman ?
    If you'd read the report cover to cover then you'd guess he slept as well as he always did. It was not the use of HC as a refrigerant that caused that incident, it was repeated wilful negligence and blatant disregard for life and safety.

    Some basic safety systems, warning signs and liaison with local authorities would have prevented that disaster in its entirety, with the only loss being a couple of hundred kilos of propane.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Auckland
    Age
    48
    Posts
    238
    Rep Power
    12

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    [QUOTE=Rob White;269546].

    None.

    LPG is Liquid Petroleum Gas, Propane to you and me.
    R290 is high quality 99.5% pure propane.............

    Just don't use LPG in a fridge circuit because it is wet and
    dirty. Before it can be called R290 it must be purified and
    dried, also unpurified LPG has Sulphur in it and Sulphur
    reacts with copper.

    Regards

    Rob

    The cynic in me would say this is misinformation spread by the coporates to bump up the price of R290 etc. As there is enough anecdotal evidence on this site and elswhere that standard LPG works just fine. But I still would prefer to use the superduper dried and purified stuff...I liken this to fuel additives and/or marketing guff from petro chemical companies that says the petrol cleans your engine as you go etc etc.

    We are more suseptable to suggestive marketing/direct marketing whatever marketing than we all reliase. And believe it or not I'm not a conspiracy theoriset...

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    89
    Rep Power
    8

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Goober View Post
    The cynic in me would say this is misinformation spread by the coporates to bump up the price of R290 etc. As there is enough anecdotal evidence on this site and elswhere that standard LPG works just fine.
    It actually depends where you live. In most of the US, and in the Eastern States of Australia, LPG (the stuff you get in 9KG BBQ bottles) can contain a variable mix of Propane and Butane (not ISO-Butane), plus (in the US anyway) a healthy dose of Methanol. This can be hard to separate out to get just the Propane. On the other hand, in Western Australia BBQ LPG is 100% Propane.

    I decanted about 5KG into a recovery cylinder and hooked it up to small refrigeration unit as a liquid receiver, with a honking great drier and sporlan sight glass in the liquid line and let it run for a couple of days. I did before and after weighs to determine how much gunk the drier took out of the Propane. The answer (for my specific LPG source anyway) was not a lot. It took out *all* the Ethyl Mercaptan. According to the sight glass, the Propane was pretty dry to begin with. It matches the R290 PT chart perfectly.

    The guys over at the ecorenovator forum (in the Geothermal section) have done quite a lot of work on a foolproof way to distil the US LPG to get just the Propane out of it. It's a lot of work, but it can be done.

    I priced the Australian HC refrigerants recently, and they wanted over $50 a kilo. My dried and filtered Propane came in at about $8.60 a Kilo (the drier cost twice what the Propane did). Now this is for my own experimentation and use. I'd never dream of putting it into someone elses system.

    60% Propane & 40% Iso-Butane (now readily available in camping stores) comes very close to matching R-12 pt characteristics and works a treat in a Car A/C.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Not so sunny coast (BC Canada)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,671
    Rep Power
    16

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    I've don the same thing, I built a small system to run the BBQ grade R-290 through it for a couple days, then recover to a dry clean cylinder, and the PT's match dead on, I used it in allot of old crap air cons after fully explaining and disclosing the ifs to the customer, and to this day they say they never have worked as good as they do now from when they got it!

    Only real benefit is convenience of not having to do filtering your self, but they ask one hell of a mark up for that convenience!

    All so as stated the little 2 pound (1pound?) green bottles is near pure and dry as one could hope for!

    Either way the R-290 whether commercially purified or BBQ grade R-290 home purified beats any man made gas hands down! I'll take the HC fridge in a fire any day of the week over an HFC fridge!

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    607
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by RANGER1 View Post
    Rob,
    Too my understading in Australia you need a different or extra qualification.
    Plumbers here have to be licenced gas fitters to run gas lines, hhok up stoves, hot water systems etc.
    I also think to convert something it requires special expertise as well.
    If it was not purpose built electicals have to be modified as well as ventilation requirements if system is a little larger.
    Its only taking off slowly here as regulations & training have to catch up.
    Obviously as you say refrigerant grade refrigerant is required which is relatively cheap.
    LPG is not suitable for general use in refrigeration.

    I think it is a good refrigerant, but needs to be handled correctly.


    A number of people have been injured or killed just storing mapp gas in their cars, let alone bottles of hydrocarbons.
    I'm not so sure about that. I'm told that Arctick take no interest in natural refrigerants including HC's at all.
    I all's know a number of people who've bought propane from Repco or Supercheap Auto (Repco = Halfords) to charge their car A/C with. It's led to a few mildly heated forum discussions.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast, Australia
    Posts
    607
    Rep Power
    21

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob White View Post
    .

    I'm not sure what it is like in the rest of Europe but in the UK
    if you work with flammable gas for heating purposes then you
    must be Gas Safe qualified (taken every 5 years), so plumbers,
    heating engineers and gas fitters all need that "Gas Safe" qual.

    In refrigeration HC gases are treated just like other refrigerants
    and if you are trained and qualified to work with one then you are
    trained and qualified to work with the other (the exception is Ammonia).

    The training covers the issues regarding HC's flammability but does not
    go into too much detail.

    The suppliers do require us to hold a HC qualification before they will sell
    the stuff to us but that is not strictly enforced everywhere.

    As far as I know (if anyone knows different let me know) as far as I know
    we have not had any real incidents where an engineer was hurt or hurt
    somebody while working with HC's.

    It might be because the system to date are so small that not enough of
    the stuff is present to cause harm, or we are just fantastic or maybe
    we have just been lucky to date

    Regards

    Rob

    .
    Actually, Tesco's (in about 1998/99) Enfield store used HC refrigerants. I can't recall but I think it was a new store, not a refit / extension. At the time you were supposed to be limited to a max. of 4kg in any one system. We were all speculating about how they'd got around that, and I recall the tech. whose site it was saying he was planning to refuse to have anything to do with it.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    US
    Posts
    39
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    First post here.

    I've been reading up on our (US) EPA rules regarding HC refrigerants. They are now legal for some equipment if it was specifically manufactured for HC. They are not legal substitutes for R12 or R22. They are also not legal for automotive use.

    Several companies are selling "drop-in" replacements on ebay. The EPA just issued a press release warning us to stay clear of them. The fact that these HC's offered on ebay are in some cases more expensive than legal refrigerants tells me the sellers are targeting illegal users anyway.

    Doug

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    brisbane
    Age
    25
    Posts
    9
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by ozfrige View Post
    Rather interesting all this about LPG having loads of moisture & sulphur. I have a vehicle that i replaced the R12 with LPG from my barbacue bottle 2 years ago & fitted a new reciever drier. Its still going & works realy well. The vehicle also runs on LPG & at last inspection & test the tank is not coroded inside & passed & so did the copper piping. One wonders if its a scare tactic to buy over priced gas just because its suposedly filtered & dried?
    The copper piping will appear fine as it is degrading from the inside out you can not see it

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Not so sunny coast (BC Canada)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,671
    Rep Power
    16

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by jamieson91 View Post
    The copper piping will appear fine as it is degrading from the inside out you can not see it

    Oh rly!!!!

    Spoken from true peranoia! I was born raised and work with propane and to this day I live with it as my primary heating and cooling fuel, and in that 30 years not once have I seen copper damaged by propane or the junk usualy in it, from industrial multicylinder compressors to the bbq tank with the 30 foot direct burried copper line.

    So do please try again! bad information just annoies me!

    Any degraded copper I see is from hard water/to much flux used and left on the pipe but never once have I seen it degraded by the use of propane and or the contaminants found in it.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    55
    Rep Power
    4

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by The MG Pony View Post
    Either way the R-290 whether commercially purified or BBQ grade R-290 home purified beats any man made gas hands down! I'll take the HC fridge in a fire any day of the week over an HFC fridge!
    It's pretty funny how many claim that hydrocarbon refrigerants are "unsafe" when fluorocarbons turn to phosgene, hydrogen fluoride, or some other toxic gas in a fire.
    http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/1...8BB0HE20121212

    In a residential refrigerator or packaged A/C, the amount needed is very small and should pose little safety concern. In automotive A/C, the amount needed is tiny compared to all the gasoline and other flammable fluids already used. (It might actually make a good argument in an electric car, but only if the batteries are LiFePO4 or other non flammable chemistry.) Large commercial and industrial systems are a different story, but even there the risks can be mitigated.

    Ultimately, I would like to see water used as an A/C refrigerant. Nonflammable and nontoxic. My friend Brittany Benzaia actually built a prototype "hybrid" A/C that uses it open loop in an evaporative condenser as well as in a sealed system with a switched reluctance centrifugal compressor. She claims that it's equivalent to a 40 SEER unit, but I'm pretty sure that's only attainable in very dry, very hot climates like Arizona.

    BTW, I'm sure those pushing the traditional refrigerants would probably call that "dihydrogen monoxide" and claim that many people have died from breathing that stuff, but I'm sure Brittany would be more than happy to debunk that by sniffing a bottle of it, then pouring it all over herself, then telling the "critic" to try that with their refrigerant.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Not so sunny coast (BC Canada)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,671
    Rep Power
    16

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Ah indeed I did that once when asked what I was hualing by a road block, Dihydrogen Monoxide, the look on the guy as he was ready to phone in the DOT guys was funny, thank fully one of the crew got the joke in time! :O

    Water can be used just like R11 with a centrifugal compressor in a closed loop cycle, it even has a refrigerent number!

    as for the flamibility of R-290 I love how they all seem to forget that POE oil burns great as with all the other oils!
    Now in Redvers Sask.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    England
    Age
    52
    Posts
    1,119
    Rep Power
    27

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by The MG Pony View Post
    Ah indeed I did that once when asked what I was hualing by a road block, Dihydrogen Monoxide, the look on the guy as he was ready to phone in the DOT guys was funny, thank fully one of the crew got the joke in time! :O

    Water can be used just like R11 with a centrifugal compressor in a closed loop cycle, it even has a refrigerent number!

    as for the flamibility of R-290 I love how they all seem to forget that POE oil burns great as with all the other oils!
    R718.

    Regards

    Rob

    .
    .. ... -. .----. - / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . / --. --- --- -..

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Not so sunny coast (BC Canada)
    Age
    34
    Posts
    1,671
    Rep Power
    16

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob White View Post
    R718.

    Regards

    Rob

    .
    Cheeresa mate! I remember years ago seeing a thing on TV where they used water in a closed loop cooling system for a deep mine shaft.
    Now in Redvers Sask.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Hobart
    Age
    73
    Posts
    16
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    I have used hydro-carbon gases in my car air conditioning, split system room air conditioner and a reverse cycle heat pump for heating domestic water. I obtained the gas from Hychill Australia because it was alleged to be prepared for refrigeration applications.

    However, I recently bought a disposable can of gas from one of their retailers only to find out that the fitting to tap into the container was not the standard 1/2 inch Acme fitting. I was advised by Hychill to go back to the store and buy one of their special fittings at a cost of $75.

    I regard the cost of such a small and simple fitting to be exhorbitant so I am returning the cylinder for a credit and I will go down the barbecue gas route. I have a large commercial drier and I will fill it with propane and leave it there for a few days before I put the gas into my car.

    I believe the use of hydrocarbons in applications where the leakage of gas is common place such as automotive air conditioning should become the norm to protect the earth's atmosphere.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    55
    Rep Power
    4

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    You can put the whole container in a freezer overnight to freeze any moisture in it, then take it outside and open the valve for a few seconds to purge out any non condensables. Afterwards, follow up with running it through a few driers, though you'll need to use a recovery machine (or a condensing unit turned into a recovery machine) to decant it into another container.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Age
    72
    Posts
    21
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    Hello Tony Here [ oldmanfrigy ]

    I have used Hychill Hydrocarbon in split systems and car A/Cs and was a trainer assessor for OZ-Chill. My gas is in a 9KG bottle has a normal male tap like the 134a Bottle not like the LPG bottle for my BQ. My gas came from Sprint Auto Parts.

    Below is an email address from another OZ-Chill trainer and he may be able to help you.
    [Kevin ] cleansafeenergysolutions@gmail.com

    I would love to know how you get on.

    Tony B

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    california
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: ? about hydrocarbon gas

    nice share about hidrocarbon gas.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •