Miele KFN12924SD 3yrs old - is this 'rust' to be expected?

[Jann]

Hi - Miele KFN12924SD fridge freezer has just failed, after 3 years of careful use.

First the fridge part lost all cooling.

The freezer was OK for a few days after, but now can only get just below freezing point.
Looking inside freezer, there is a certain amount of frost build up - top right hand side rear (like a thin vertical strip of frost) and then from the next shelf down, full frost build up across entire width of rear, right down to bottom.

Service are on their way tomorrow, but when I pulled the unit out to look at the rear, I noticed 'rust' looking deposits near compressor. In fact, a number of pipes appear to have weird discharge stains.

Is this to be expected after just 3 years? or has there been some sort of fault in production?

If the latter, I'll ask for a full replacement (under warranty) as I don't want to lose lots of food all over again two years down the line.

Thanks.

just 3 years old fridge-freezer.jpg

[Jann]

Reporting back after service visit, re my Miele KFN 12924 SD problem.

Engineer tried to remove plastic cover (over evaporator etc.) in freezer, but jammed solid with ice so had to use hair dryer to melt.

On finally getting it off, he called HQ to report solid ice below evaporator, and frost on top (see photo - weird, lable on evaporator seems to be partly Turkish)

After speaking to HQ, they decided a system fault (i.e. the entire cooling system). I am now to get a new replacement - though by the sound of it only because I took out a 10 year warranty (the original 2 year warranty finished 10 months ago). I assume it will be the newer version:

KFN 12924 SD-1

... and I hope that some revisions were made to the manufacture of the units in this newer model, because 3 years for a fridge/freezer costing just on £900 is not acceptable in anyone's book.

In fact, even if you don't have a warranty extension, if your Miele goes t*tsup with the same fault I would guess that you have a claim under the Sale of Goods Act. (looking at the net, it seems a lot of people ended up paying c£250 for a service visit from Miele when this happened, and Miele replaced the various units. However I suspect you should not even be liable for the £250 - the dealer (hopefully not Comet...RIP) is responsible under the SOGA.

Good luck! I won't be buying any more Miele products for a while, or at least any without a 10 year warranty.

With cover off.jpg

[Tesla]

Hi Jann
Thanks for sharing your story. I normally get a 5 year warranty for anything over AUD$500 & claim 1/3 of the time. With electronics and cheap plastic many products out there seem to just last through the initial warranty period. Of course as a fridgie I don't really need any warranty on ac or refrigerators.
Hope you have better luck with the new fridge. With the age of internet and forums we can keep these dodgie products in check.

[R600A]

Hi

If that picture was the actual fault on your appliance then it was NOT a system fault and to me who has been specialising on frost free for over 20yrs is it has been caused by lack of airflow by either the fan failing or the evaperator sensor or the door not been closed fully( the door can be approx 1/2" open without alarm going off).

[QUOTE]the dealer (hopefully not Comet...RIP) is responsible under the SOGA.[/QUOTE]

The retailer comet (if purchased from them) under SOGA would be the responsible person.

In actual fact in the UK the manufacturer has NO liability to repair your appliance as the retailer is legally responsible. The manufacturer has a contract with the retailer not with yourself, they do it to reduce the time ect.

If your appliance has a fault then under SOGA at 3yrs old YOU not the retailer or manufacturer would need to prove that the fault was there and known about from new. The retailer or manufacturer does NIT have to prove there wasn't.

Oh by the way.. your fridge freezer din't come out from a miele factory.. It was made for them by LIEBHERR.

Bryan
Bryan

[Jann]

[QUOTE=Tesla;268984
& claim 1/3 of the time.[/QUOTE]

Wow, surprisingly high rate of failure.

[Jann]

If that picture was the actual fault on your appliance then it was NOT a system fault and to me who has been specialising on frost free for over 20yrs is it has been caused by lack of airflow by either the fan failing or the evaperator sensor or the door not been closed fully( the door can be approx 1/2" open without alarm going off).

Hi - yes, that is a photo of what was revealed by the engineer removing the plastic covering.

I overheard the conversation with HQ, and he confirmed that the fan was working OK. I also know that the door had been closed fine, because on my unit the alarm was very sensitive (it sounds even if it was 1/2" open) and the magnetic action of the seal is such that the door snaps shut when any closer, and the seal is tight all round when .

The engineer was asked about the sensor, and about the pattern of the ice and frost etc. and HQ still came to the conclusion that it was unrepairable.

(and if you look around the net, you'll see that plenty of the 1200 series get diagnosed as being 'unrepairable system fault' by Miele themselves - even when not under a 3rd party warranty).

Given you think it is not a system fault, looking at the photo I posted what shows this? (i.e. what would a System Fault look like instead?).


Thanks

[Jann]

p.s. what would be the explanation for the 'rust' deposit also?

Thanks

[R600A]

p.s. what would be the explanation for the 'rust' deposit also?

Thanks

Hi

The " rust " wont actually be rust but it will be the flux on the pipework where it is brazed,normally a light blue or simular to varnish or white. if there is rust on the black pipework that is the smallest pipe then this would normally only be approx 2" where it is brazed into the compressor. That is normal and ALL refrigeration will have it even sub zero which is 5-8 times more expensive. It is a fact that metal pipework does corrode but takes years, I've seen them 15-20yrs with corrosion and there is no leak as it is on the surface where the heat as effected the chemical formation of the steel pipework.

As a miele and also a liebherr self employed engineer with over 20yrs experience on frost free the fault you had was NOT system.

Bryan

[Rob White]

p.s. what would be the explanation for the 'rust' deposit also?

Thanks

Looking at the photo the rust on the base plate looks to be caused by dripping
water from the suction pipe above and is nothing to worry about (the rust that is)

The fact that the suction is dripping water is an indication that condensation has formed
on it and has done for quite a while, which is another indication that the evap has been
frosted for quite a considerable time also.

As for the "weird discharge stains" on the pipes (as explained by 600a) that is caused by
the flux that is used in the brazed pipe connections from manufacturer and again nothing
to worry about.

Regards

Rob

.

[Rob White]

(and if you look around the net, you'll see that plenty of the 1200 series get diagnosed as being 'unrepairable system fault' by Miele themselves - even when not under a 3rd party warranty).

(i.e. what would a System Fault look like instead?).


Thanks

If what you say is correct and these fridge-freezers have a fault then the fact that
you are getting it replaced sounds very reasonable to me.

My concern is the engineer had to phone for somebody else to tell him it was a
"system fault", now I don't know what a "system faulty" is and I don't know how it
can be diagnosed by just looking at it, without a thorough investigation.

Seems to me, that the term "system fault" means "I don't know what is wrong and
I can't be arsed to find out".

Regards

Rob

.

[spimps]

"Seems to me, that the term "system fault" means "I don't know what is wrong and
I can't be arsed to find out". Must have been this engineers first day on the road by the sound of it.
Absolutely,no mention of checking dainage defrost heater,defrost function,control pcb and drainage, why wouldn't an engineer make a check on these?
"wont be buying miele again for some time" if miele dissapoint you then you are in for a shock.very best of luck,you will certainly need it.

[Jann]

Hi

The " rust " wont actually be rust but it will be the flux on the pipework where it is brazed,normally a light blue or simular to varnish or white. if there is rust on the black pipework that is the smallest pipe then this would normally only be approx 2" where it is brazed into the compressor. That is normal and ALL refrigeration will have it even sub zero which is 5-8 times more expensive. It is a fact that metal pipework does corrode but takes years, I've seen them 15-20yrs with corrosion and there is no leak as it is on the surface where the heat as effected the chemical formation of the steel pipework.

As a miele and also a liebherr self employed engineer with over 20yrs experience on frost free the fault you had was NOT system.

Bryan

The 'rust' was not just on the pipework, it was a sort of 'heap' (c.7mm high) which had formed on the metal base near the compressor.

I'm confused about you being so sure it was not a 'system' fault as the engineer simply relayed what he was seeing back to the HQ. Given he was replying to their questions, why would they not ask the right questions to determine if it was a system fault or something else?

Is it financially better for Miele if they condemn a unit and let D&G insurance pay for a new one then?

Interesting that you are a Miele+Liebherr self employed engineer - what sort of training do the Miele employed engineers receive (given mine was obviously not au fait with working on the well established 1200 series?)

And would the guy who came have been a Miele full-time engineer or a self-employed engineer?

Thanks

[Jann]

Looking at the photo the rust on the base plate looks to be caused by dripping
water from the suction pipe above and is nothing to worry about (the rust that is)

The fact that the suction is dripping water is an indication that condensation has formed
on it and has done for quite a while, which is another indication that the evap has been
frosted for quite a considerable time also.

Regards

Rob

.

Thanks, that makes sense and would indeed explain the heap.

[Jann]

If what you say is correct and these fridge-freezers have a fault then the fact that
you are getting it replaced sounds very reasonable to me.

My concern is the engineer had to phone for somebody else to tell him it was a
"system fault", now I don't know what a "system faulty" is and I don't know how it
can be diagnosed by just looking at it, without a thorough investigation.

Seems to me, that the term "system fault" means "I don't know what is wrong and
I can't be arsed to find out".

Regards

Rob

.

Well, I'd be annoyed if an Indesit FF conked out after 3 years (6, maybe) so - given Miele are so full of themselves and are much pricier (including parts and labour) - the fact that mine conked in under 3 is just not acceptable. Given there are no kids here and the unit looks like it has just come out of the showroom, the 'user' cannot be blamed for this one.

System - yes, I assumed it meant 'the electronics' but apparently it is Miele shorthand for "uh-oh, that dicey sealed refrigerant system that we use has gone and collapsed again". Even the engineer said "I don't know why they make them like that..." (i.e. that they are sealed and non replaceable).

Life without a FF is amazingly frustrating - having to shop each day, like in the 40's !

[Rob White]

.

I have been in the trade for more than 30 years and if anyone ever
asks me for advice on a fridge freezer I always tell them to buy the
simplest and cheapest one they can get in the range that they want.

Buying fridges with all the bells and whistles only costs more money
and has the tendency to be obsolete within five years.

Average quality fridge freezers can last for 5, 6 maybe even 8 to 10 years.

Expensive quality fridge freezers can last for 5, 6 maybe even 8 to 10 years.

No help to you I know, but just because it is expensive there is no guarantee
it will last longer. Where the difference is though, is in the quality of the service
you get from the company and I think that has been well demonstrated by their
acceptance that it has a fault and are prepared to replace it for a new one.

Regards

Rob

Ps, Oh and if I could persuade my wife to stop buying fridges with all the bells and
whistles on .

.

[Jann]

.
Where the difference is though, is in the quality of the service
you get from the company and I think that has been well demonstrated by their
acceptance that it has a fault and are prepared to replace it for a new one..

Just to clarify - Miele were only prepared to replace it because someone else (Domestic & General, via the Miele extended warranty) were picking up the tab.

If you look on the net, you'll see plenty of people who have bought a 1200 series unit without an extended warranty - and if the FF fails one day after the end of the two year warranty, then - at best - Miele will want c £250 to give them a replacement.

So, as far as I can see, once you get past the hype Miele are not a particularly good firm to deal with. My one encounter with a Miele engineer was underwhelming (not as professional as the guy who came out years ago from Hotpoint for one of the first Frost Free fridge-freezers - which lasted over 10 years, by the way.

In future I think I agree with your advice - I'll go for the nicest looking cheapo/average model and just aim to replace every 6 years.

(BTW, we did not go for this model due to snobbery over the Miele name - it was really for two reasons: a) it was one of the few models with a 50-50 size split for Fridge and Freezer, and b) because, to be fair, the quality of the Miele/Liebherr white paint/enamel on the exterior was the best looking compared to other manufacturers.

[Jann]

For the record and for users finding this post via Google etc., thought I'd mention how this saga ended.

I spoke too soon regarding Miele replacing the faulty unit - a couple of days later I got a phone call from a Miele person saying "As you don't have a New For Old policy, we can't give you a replacement free of charge..."

At this point, having lost £200+ worth of food, and been without a FF for getting on for 3 weeks, I practically fell off my chair.

Fortunately I had taken a photocopy of the original Miele glossy warranty leaflet, which clearly stated that "If we are unable to repair your applicance economically, we will replace it with the latest equivalent model".

This meant that Miele had to backtrack, and sent me a new FF, the revised version (KFN 12924 SD-1). Interestingly I see that this revised version has had changes made to the evaporator and waste pipe - I wonder if this was as a result of failures by the initial model?

I'm not too sure whether this was a genuine mistake by Miele (difficult to believe, since all their warranties effectively state New for Old - but see later) or whether it was a precursor to them saying "we will give you a replacement but you need to give us a nominal £XXX first". Apparently they often ask for c.£250


Looking more closely at all my Miele warranty brochures, and supplied warranty certificates, it seems that Miele are all over the shop when it comes to the fine detail of their warranties.

The glossy brochure is VERY clear in suggesting that New-For-Old happens - which obviously encourages purchasers to fork out for a warranty. However, when you look at the fine detail of the brochure (if it exists - Miele seem to chop and change their brochures, plus supply differing promises of warranty costs) or the fine detail of the warranty cert, then you begin to see that they are a little more evasive.

In fact, there is such a discrepancy between the warranty brochure language and the fine detail that I would guess that anyone challenging Miele in the Small Claims Court regarding failure to honour New for Old would probably win.

(actually, having now dealt with Miele on non-refrigeration matters, e.g. ordering laundry supplies, getting them to honour free accessory promotions, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that they are one of the most disorganised domestic appliance companies in the UK!)

Bottom line - if you have not abused your Miele fridge freezer and it conks in an absurdly short period (especially just before 3 years!!) then - warranty or no warranty - insist on a replacement.

Hopefully the above will be useful info, and Good Luck !!!

[Rob White]

.

Well at least you got a result

Thanks for keeping us informed with the saga, seems like
you had to work at it for them to honour your original agreement.

Just as well you kept the documents and maybe a reminder to
us all to keep documents in a safe location, just in case.

Regards

Rob

.

[Barkingmad]

I've had a similar problem to the OP with the sister of the Miele KN12924, the Liebherr CN3193.

Fridge wasn't cool, freezer at around -10 and the compressor constanlty running. Engineer diagnosed faulty sensor in the freezer but said he would replace all 3 (2 freezer / 1 fridge). The unit was up and running following a defrost with the old sensors within 24 hours of the engineer visit. There was a build up of ice in the freezer (could be seen seeping out of the back panel inside the freezer). Looks like sensor was saying "freezer not cold enough", so build up of ice because no defrost action, the ice build up reduced the cooling capability in the freezer and fridge compartment was starved of cooling capability.

New sensors fitted recently but it ran for 1 month without any problems, and no build up of ice was visible when engineer swapped the sensors.

We had similar problem with the Bosch FF before the Liebherr. Freezer suffering build up of ice; we got used to this and just did a defrost. In this case, the Bosch engineer fixed it by swapping the defrost heating element for a higher wattage.

[Jann]

I've had a similar problem to the OP with the sister of the Miele KN12924, the Liebherr CN3193.
New sensors fitted recently but it ran for 1 month without any problems, and no build up of ice was visible when engineer swapped the sensors.

Hope it doesn't but... If it fails again, would be good to post here. My theory is that maybe it is a time thing i.e. the ice will build up again, but only over a long period of time. There is a possibility that the defrosting action (temporarily) solved the ice build up issue/high temperature issue on its own.

Reason for theory is that Miele seem very quick to give up on this particular model - for example, my (mature) engineer may have not been much cop, but he did phone a senior guy back at base and the decision was not to bother with renewing sensors.

Since even a non-DIY person would suggest that some kind of sensor would be at fault in this situation, the fact that Miele don't bother to replace (once they know that the FF is under warranty/extended warranty) must be significant.

In all the cases I've read about so far, even owners without a warranty are told that the FF is non-repairable. They are then offered the v2 of this series, albeit that they have to pay 2-300 quid for the privilege.

So, IMHO all this points to v1 of this series (or maybe, v1's produced within a certain time frame) of having some intrinsic fault to their design.

Wish there was a Miele full-time inside worker willing to go deep-throat on this one - then we'd know the real story !!