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  1. #1
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    Cold Storage Design


    Hi all. My company is building a 15,000 pallet 9-room 6-high cold storage facility here in the Philippines. Most rooms will be used for meat products but some rooms will be devoted to ice cream. We have hired the services of an experienced consultant. I am just a plain businessman but I am interested in the technical aspects of our project. I have some questions that I hope you guys can answer. I know there might not always be a right or wrong answer but I just wanted to hear your opinions. I also don't want to be shortchanged by suppliers. For example:

    1. Choice of compressor - what is the best compressor? Sabroe/Frick, Grasso, Mycom, other brand? Pros and cons?

    2. Choice of insulation panels - what is the best brand? Are there differences in quality or performance? Pros and cons? How can we tell?

    3. Solar panels - does it make economic sense?

    4. Best WMS for cold storage?

    5. Best material handling equipment? Linde, Hyster, Toyota, others?

    6. RFID?

    Thanks in advance for all your inputs.



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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Your consulting engineer should be advising best options and alternatives, alot of detail and money goes into flooring and foundation design and construction. As for materials and equipment, choose what is locally available and servicable long term. No point selecting the cheap option that when fails you cannot get the problem resolved.
    For me, I prefer urethane insulation, alternative PIR Polystyrene, Mycom compressors because they are local so to speak, Toyota fork hoists again local. Plus ammonia refrigerant. Don't forget to have a fire sprinkler system installed for huge reductions in insurance costs.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Just to add to Magoo's input,
    It is recommended to have lots of evaporator surface area & capacity, especially with a product like ice cream where temps are critical.
    If people go for cheap option you will never get room temps, due to defrosting all the time in your climate.
    Penthouse unit evaporators are also a good investment so you can work on them with ease.
    Rapid roller doors on freezers also worth investing in.
    Ammonia would be the best but not cheapest on initial installation.
    Ammonia would be the most efficient to run with as well as refrigerant price.
    Electricity cost is also a major part of the design to keep running cost to a minimum.

    There is a lot to say but hopefully your consultant knows his stuff.
    All other refrigerants very expensive.
    You would also want built in redundancy if something goes wrong, or for maintenance.

    eg more than 1 condenser & compressor, so you have back up.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Thanks for your responses Magoo and Ranger1. Speaking of refrigerants, what do you think about CO2/NH3 cascade systems? Pros and cons? My limited knowledge which stems from researching on the web seems to point to CO2 as the refrigerant of the future. Some articles also claim that installation costs/equipment will be cheaper (for one, because of smaller pipe diameters?) than pure NH3 although operating costs are about the same. Is this true? Some people then claim that CO2 is only cost-efficient at really low temps like -40 degrees celsius. Any comments?

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    permafrost888,
    I'm not sure on others opinions but I would steer clear of CO2 for this application.
    It was the flavour of the month & companies like Bitzer were really pushing it, but its not worth the trouble
    if you can use ammonia.
    At the end of the day is there a good company nearby that can look after your system as well!

    What capacity is your plant in refigeration kilowatts or what size compressors are proposed?

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    May i ask why you don't recommend CO2? The reason we're looking at CO2 is for safety (food and otherwise) reasons. Our potential clients like Nestle require that we use "safer" refrigerants like propylene glycol or CO2. What other refrigerants might fit these requirements?

    I don't have figures yet in terms of kw or compressor sizes. I do know that our capacity will be around 15,000 tons.

    Thanks.

  7. #7
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Also, how do you test the quality of the insulation panels? Is there a standard test for this? The reason i'm asking all these questions is i want to avoid a situation where the supplier might be in cahoots with our engineers. You know sometimes an engineer might pass off as good a substandard piece of equipment in exchange for kickbacks. I just want to avoid those situations. If I am able to test or verify independently the quality of equipment then I can avoid things like that.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    May i ask why you don't recommend CO2? The reason we're looking at CO2 is for safety (food and otherwise) reasons. Our potential clients like Nestle require that we use "safer" refrigerants like propylene glycol or CO2. What other refrigerants might fit these requirements?

    I don't have figures yet in terms of kw or compressor sizes. I do know that our capacity will be around 15,000 tons.

    Thanks.
    Its my opinion & in Australia I believe its mainly used in supermarkets.

    Nestle still use ammonia, but it can depend how big plant is.

    CO2 has higher pressures than normal fridge plants.
    If system is stopped for a period relief valves will vent most of it.
    Specialized equipment required, as well not a lot of general refrigeration companies work with it.
    You need detectors for CO2 in rooms & areas of poor ventilation for personell protection.
    You still need an ammonia or other refrigerant to run chillers & to condense CO2

    Glycol is good as well for secondary refrigerant in air conditioned rooms or process areas.

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  10. #10
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Permafrost,
    CO2
    At the moment there are no technicians in the Philippines that can handle Co2 system as it requires a registered technician to maintain it.

    PU/PIR Panel
    For the panels, just go to local suppliers. They normally cheat you in the density of the panel. If you require 60 kg per cu. m or 40 kg per cu. m you must get it.

    Material Handling
    Go for for locally available service for the material handling, Toyota will do but the best is Linde but it is expensive, they also have after sales service in the Philippines.

    Compressor
    If you are going for ammonia look for compressor with available parts in the market and after sales to back up. Sabroe is present in the Philippines as well as York. Mycom is very much well known in the industry.

    The refrigeration people in the Philippines are comprise of people who knew each other especially in the industrial side. Just go for a company with name and reputation to protect so that you are also protected from the products they will offer to you.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    the best way would be to appoint an outside consultant possibly not from the area who can maintain integrity. the specification right down to the last nut and bolt must be legally watertight and without misinterpretation.


    That way everybody knows from the start what is expected. However that will add cost but as we all know cheap to buy = dear to own

    I do some work for such a person who I can recommend. He specializes in project management of industrial refrigeration installations but he is UK based which may not be of use?

  12. #12
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi, permafrost888,

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    Hi all. My company is building a 15,000 pallet 9-room 6-high cold storage facility here in the Philippines. Most rooms will be used for meat products but some rooms will be devoted to ice cream. We have hired the services of an experienced consultant. I am just a plain businessman but I am interested in the technical aspects of our project. I have some questions that I hope you guys can answer. I know there might not always be a right or wrong answer but I just wanted to hear your opinions. I also don't want to be shortchanged by suppliers. For example:

    1. Choice of compressor - what is the best compressor? Sabroe/Frick, Grasso, Mycom, other brand? Pros and cons?

    2. Choice of insulation panels - what is the best brand? Are there differences in quality or performance? Pros and cons? How can we tell?

    3. Solar panels - does it make economic sense?

    4. Best WMS for cold storage?

    5. Best material handling equipment? Linde, Hyster, Toyota, others?

    6. RFID?

    Thanks in advance for all your inputs.
    1. each mentioned brand is OK-you just need to follow requested maintenance, for you most important thing is compressor control panel and here I prefer UNISAB III for Sabroe/Frick which you can connect to your SCADA system ... Frick is using Quantum control panel which is also very good but I do not have experience with, the same is with Grasso or Mycom controls ...

    2. of course you have a lot of brands .... good, better, the best ... check this link ....
    http://www.ct-technologies.dk/PRODUCTS/ they can deliver panels, floor insulation and doors ... not the cheapest, but with very good quality ... worked with them for Nestle and for special cold room down to -50*C in India. I can recommend them at least to ask for offer...

    3. both, hot water or for electricity is good to have .... economic sense will come sooner or later .... green energy always makes good economic sense ... you need a lot of warm/hot water for CIP

    4. have no idea but on the market you have a lot of offers ... my suggestion is to contact some similar cold store and speak with people there ...

    5. have no idea, but generally, must have a good service .... most important ....

    6. just use normal bar code ... RFID is used in mega markets against stealing no need for cold store ...

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    May i ask why you don't recommend CO2? The reason we're looking at CO2 is for safety (food and otherwise) reasons. Our potential clients like Nestle require that we use "safer" refrigerants like propylene glycol or CO2. What other refrigerants might fit these requirements?

    I don't have figures yet in terms of kw or compressor sizes. I do know that our capacity will be around 15,000 tons.

    Thanks.
    I prefer two stage NH3 system -45*C/-10*C, -35*C/-10*C, -10*C/32*C (of course with heat recovery system) .... CO2/NH3 is also very good, but for sure more complicated and dangerous too due to higher pressures within system. Combination like this is good because we keep all ammonia within engine room and CO2 circulates in areas with goods and people. CO2 is not harmful to goods at all (safe profit), but very dangerous for people if you have higher concentrations. Installation cost for CO2/NH3 system is lower then standard two stage system, but vary from case to case depending on physical layout and weather conditions.

    Here in Croatia we use two stage NH3 system -45*C for hardening tunnels, -35*C for cold stores at -28/-26*C and -10*C as a high stage part .... so far no problems .... plant is safe that much as you care about ...

    Seems, you are part of Nestle chain so there is no other way .... use NH3/CO2 ... Nestle white shirts prefer "safe" production areas (worked with them in Nestle Moscow) ... for me NH3 is more safe then the other refrigerants because its smell will tell me .... my friend be careful I'm here ... others are just silent killers ... CFCs/HCFCs/HFC even CO2.

    Anyhow, not easy to choose between these two systems... good luck

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    Also, how do you test the quality of the insulation panels? Is there a standard test for this? The reason i'm asking all these questions is i want to avoid a situation where the supplier might be in cahoots with our engineers. You know sometimes an engineer might pass off as good a substandard piece of equipment in exchange for kickbacks. I just want to avoid those situations. If I am able to test or verify independently the quality of equipment then I can avoid things like that.
    check this link http://www.brufma.co.uk/index.htm or you can search some other sources too... panel are not cheap but most important is installation of floor insulation, panels and doors ....

    You can spend or save a lot of nerves i.e. money just having good or bad project. Good one is not possible to make for free it is a lot of works even for very skilled team. Sometimes is too late to change wrong things during installation or at least can be very expensive ....


    You can always ask for second thought before you start with installation ....

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Thank you for all your responses. I really appreciate all the help. Just have a few more questions. Regarding panel testing, how do you test the panel density? I heard from an engineer that they normally cut up a sample of the panel and weigh it. Is this sound testing procedure? I also read somewhere on the forum that you can test the panel gaps once installed by using infrared cameras. Is this the best way to test panel installation? Oh by the way, my consultant is recommending that the panels be installed horizontally and not vertically. He says that nobody has done it but based on his own experience in building cold stores for the last 40 years this is the best way to do it. Something about improving structural strength?

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Vertical installation of panels is the one and only way, each panel is structurally independently complete as an independent item. Each panel vertically standing is self supporting to a vertical height limit, the gravity factor,. Your consultant engineer is building a house of cards. Add windage effect, earthquakes and natural earth movement/ shrinkage.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi permafrost888
    Just thought I'd put my five cents worth in since I worked on some big storage whilst an apprentice. You could consider a staging room for sorting stock coming in & out this will reduce the size of plant in main storage and running costs. That is if your size plant is big enough.
    RFID - I was always against this but with the knowledge of the excessive theft from where I worked you had better use this technology as theft prevention.
    Solar panels need to be calculated on a life cycle rate & you would probably be looking at a system to cover around 20% to 30% (initially with room for expansion) of expected load from refrigeration.
    The slab will be important to stop frost heave with vents through the floor - for memory there was a rat problem where I worked and grills had to be put in every opening.

  16. #16
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi, permafrost888

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    Thank you for all your responses. I really appreciate all the help. Just have a few more questions. Regarding panel testing, how do you test the panel density? I heard from an engineer that they normally cut up a sample of the panel and weigh it. Is this sound testing procedure? I also read somewhere on the forum that you can test the panel gaps once installed by using infrared cameras. Is this the best way to test panel installation? Oh by the way, my consultant is recommending that the panels be installed horizontally and not vertically. He says that nobody has done it but based on his own experience in building cold stores for the last 40 years this is the best way to do it. Something about improving structural strength?

    Very interesting, with 40 years of experience maybe he discovered what is the best method, even if none in the rest of this world is not using that method to improve structural strength ... if you like you can give him a chance to prove that


    I'm working like supervisor refrigeration engineer for mechanical part (33+years). Until now I was in contact with panels for vertical installation only, (except floor insulation). It is possible, that I miss something regarding horizontal installation of insulation panels due to so many daily technical innovations and this is maybe a chance for all of us to be enlighten ...

    In Nestle Moscow we installed a big self-support ice cream room 33m x 22m with internal height of 10,5m ceiling panels were suspended to outside steel construction with roof of steel sheets to protect panels from rain and snow ... quite big ice cream box ....

    In India the height was 11,68m, before installation we apply butyl mastic (kind of green plastic rubber-sealant-(check this link http://www.exxonmobilchemical.com/Ch...oductsservices ) on both inner and outside joint groove and after finishing, again we apply white silicone on outside and transparent silicone on inside panel joints. Panels were prefabricated and inside panel material was SS material and outside was white. Working temperature was -50*C and panel thickness was 220mm ...

    Floor insulation was a high strength Floormate and Thermisol insulation sheets ... you can Google both

    So, if you order your insulation material from some brand manufacturer you should get what you pay for, no need to prove or check anything on site, just install it in proper way. A good cold room is not easy to install, be careful it can be disaster if you miss something.

    Then, in another hand, you can spend extra money to give someone to check the density of panel foam or play around with infrared cameras or some other hi-tech instruments, but first (my warm suggestion) try to make a professional installation ... of everything ... you must not build a house of cards ...

    ... please read my sig ...

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Dear Friends
    I think with discussing only about panel,not whole project. so for best economical and performance balance of project , it is important to make a comparison table and put products of mentioned company . also distance and transportation and time to end of any project is important . i wish last compare have such of this things.
    Regards.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    2. Choice of insulation panels - what is the best brand? Are there differences in quality or performance? Pros and cons? How can we tell?
    I have sent a private message for panels.

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    5. Best material handling equipment? Linde, Hyster, Toyota, others?
    Have been using 3 Toyota's for some time. Our oldest forklift is appr. 15 yrs old and running with very minor problems, other ones (newest is about 5 yrs old) never faulted.

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    6. RFID?
    I would definitely recommend it if Nestle accepts RFID stickers on their products. One of food producing companies in Turkey is using RFID to automagically check and invoice materials placed on palettes while they are leaving the room.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi Permafrost

    Several things to consider:

    Temperature and Relative humidity outside cold room. Should be low.
    Design of automatic doors
    Electric heating of floor in doors areas.
    Evaportators should be installed outside the cold room in order to avoid problems with snow and fog during defrost cycles
    Consider moving racks like Storax Systems (excellent)
    Other compressor brand: Howden
    Led lights to reduce light heat load.
    Backup electric power
    Better many small compressors than few large ones

    Regards

    Lorenzo (lhill)

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    You will need speed in supply and service #1. Use what you have guaranteed access to locally.
    Compatibility of systems has also got to be paired with #1 for priority.

    Efficiency has to run a close #1. You have to keep overhead as low as possible to maintain profit and competitive edge.

    Dependability is right there with Efficiency. If you have delays that can't be resolved ASAP your customers will give you even more headaches than you already have.

    Your engineering and planning firm is concerned with their future too, they won't willingly or knowingly recommend something that's out of line with reality. If they go out on a limb on any recommendations and the future shows they were not up to snuff, they loose reputability. It's great that you're doing your own research, but when you present your ideas, present them as you wanting to learn why such and such isn't recommended, not as 'I think this might be better'. You can allow the firm to educate you or you can intimidate them. You don't want to intimidate them and they should be more than willing to educate someone who comes across as very willing to learn.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi all, John here from Oztech Refrig in Sydney.
    Has been an interesting thread here.

    I don't lay claim to know everything on these issues, but maybe my input could have some sort of help - i hope.

    Refrigeration
    In regards to the industrial refrigeration side, i'de be sticking to what we've all known, and for me would be Amonia.

    ' Back in the day' (as they say), Amonia was used in just about every industrial plant here. I'de see the big o'l 'Willack', 'Budge', or 'trane' compressors chugging along at 500rpm, quite happely doing the job without issue.
    The twin cylinder Budges had quite large pistons, with a stroke of around 5 foot, so plenty of work being done. Amonia is a very efficient gas, so didn't need super high revving compressor in some cases.
    Oh, great thing about Amonia, you can alway's detect a leak without instruments, lol. We use to burn sulphuric acid on a tin plate, and wave it near connections. When a leak was detected, the sulphuric acid would smoke up, aaah th good o'l day's.

    Recom, Trane, Bitzer, like them all. Just make sure you have the company located in your country, or at least a stockpile of spares.

    Solar panels

    A few types here, ' Monocrystaline, & Polycrystaline ' are two i know. Mono types have a higher energy transfer than Poly. Mono are the 'square' type, and are black, Poly are the rectangle type and are bluey type.
    There's off grid or on grid applications, in your circumstance, i would think on grid is the go, and claim rebate back for returning energy back to the grid via the panels.
    Im seriously thinking of going off grid at home via, solar panels, batteries, inverters, and wind fans to keep the charges up. Had enough being ripped off by energy company here.


    Don't know about ins panels, but do know, october last year, i paid $270.00 for a bottle of 22, now i pay $700.00, rediculous.

    Peace guy's, good luck.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi Permafrost,

    Just a couple of other checks to consider from an energy efficiency perspective:

    Blower door test- consider this test to ensure the building envelope is completely sealed. It is relatively low cost and is good for identifying leakage. Goggle online to find out the procedure...

    Thermal imaging- this is another test to check for poor performance of the thermal envelope (walls,ceiling etc). It is also good for testing panel joins. Many of the large cold storage companies in New Zealand have this as an annual check. Something to consider.

    Heat recovery- Most cold storage facilities have too much heat available. Check with your neighbouring buildings...do they have a need for high grade heat for processess? There is excellent high grade heat recovery available from Ammonia systems. You might be able to sell this heat to a neighbouring building for a win/win situation.


    Good luck....

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I personally think that your consulting engineer should be answering all these questions for you. There is a company in the UK that does all this sort of work FJB Systems http://www.fjb.co.uk/ take a look at there web site and give them a call. I have worked with them in the past and as far as unbiased engineering work goes they are up there at the top.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    just to add a note.... due to the size of the plant and particular in food industry, i suggest neither NH3 nor CO2.
    a far cheaper and cost efficient solution is to run a 2 circuit system (primary run R134a or R404a) secondary circuit run with brine..... i successfully run two large plants for Emirates and Qatar Airways now at low costs both equipment wise and energy wise

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi mond13,

    Quote Originally Posted by mond13 View Post
    just to add a note.... due to the size of the plant and particular in food industry, i suggest neither NH3 nor CO2.
    a far cheaper and cost efficient solution is to run a 2 circuit system (primary run R134a or R404a) secondary circuit run with brine..... i successfully run two large plants for Emirates and Qatar Airways now at low costs both equipment wise and energy wise


    I do not agree with above .... bold&underline ...., however I respect your opinion, but numbers and reality are telling us another story ....

    This is a theoretical comparison of refrigerants .....


    This is a theoretical comparison and as all such, should be used with care. The largest drawback in the study is the use of fixed compressor efficiency, but the real efficiency involves too many para-meters to be of practical use. However, there are some observations:

    R134a has a good COP, but the transport properties are bad, thus large pipes and large heat-exchangers.

    R410A should be an excellent refrigerant but a number of HP manufacturers have not too good experience of it. The reason is probably not optimized components.

    R404A and R507A are similar. Both benefit from condensate subcoolers/vapour superheaters and if use for larger compression ratios, should be equipped with economizers.
    A condensate subcoolers/vapour superheater impairs the capacity for especially R717.

    R717 is by far the best refrigerant. The draw back is the high discharge temperatures and toxicity.

    R407C is a good general purpose refrigerant.

    R1270 is still better but has the drawback of being flammable.

    Design vapour velocities can be kept astonishingly equal, regardless of temperature and refrigerant.


    complete book you can find here:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/47799083/Comparison-of-refrigerants

    here is another good link:
    http://cienbas.galeon.com/02one_component.htm

    one more discussion about refrigerants here at RE forums from 2007:
    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...hp/t-8880.html

    In my opinion, whenever is possible, we should use natural refrigerants especially for industrial purpose .... if its not possible for some real reason then we can use artificial refrigerants ....

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    1.for your specific application,that is, coldstorage operation for meat and ice cream, you can choose from either
    screw or piston compressors. screw compressors are generally suitable for continuous or considerably large
    refrigeration or cooling loads at a very short period applicable to cold storage operation having high
    traffic (storage turnover) or blast freezing couple with coldstorage use. piston compressors are ideal for
    medium range cooling capacity requirements as well as part loading operation, that is, after initial storage
    of goods (either half-frozen raw materials or blast frozen processed goods) load duty is reduced to keeping
    the frozen state of goods inside the coldrooms (minimal cooling load).
    the critical point,though, is in the application of design in harnessing the capabilities and limitations of each
    type of equipment for your intended use operation) which I guess is known to your consultant

    i have a customer who operates a rental coldstorage facility,about 5000 sq.m floor area at 8m high room
    with blast freezer, coldstorage, chiller and processing rooms using screw compressors with built-in variable
    speed drives and based on his claim proved to be very cost efficient. the catch is,during breakdowns, parts
    needed are quite expensive.nonetheless these maintenance variable is outweighed by flexibility in providing
    efficient cooling requirements.
    likewise, i have also a similar customer with a rental cold storage facility of about 4000 sq.m employing
    variable sizes (big to medium) of piston compressors with computerized control panel which when large
    cooling load is required operates the big compressors. when the cooling load stabilizes,meaning the rooms
    are just maintaining the frozen state of stored goods, operates the medium-sized compressors.
    for clarification, i am talking here of a centralized refrigeration system using ammonia refrigerant.
    for application to ice cream storage,there are specialized coolign design where a secondary refrigerant such
    glycol is used with ammonia as primary refrigerant.
    the best solution, of course, is to consult a reliable and unbiased refrigeration designer which might be
    expensive to engage. however, you can rest assured that your plant would not be short in capacity, albiet
    worth your investment.
    who to choose (equipment manufacturer/refrigeration contractor) ? - please take the time and effort in
    investigating other cold storage operators, ask if possible for honest opinion from both their owners as well
    as their operators (technicians). i know it would be hard for you but then it would be equally disastrous if
    you do not as I guess your project investment could run into millions

    2.panel suppliers - if local brands are of equal quality from european,american or foreign brands go for these.
    however, I bet that this would be very exhausting as you need the expertise to qualify. again, if your
    consultant has the expertise then leave it to him/her.
    in my opinion,you do also what i suggest from item 1 - investigate existing successful cold storage operators

    Note : item 2 is equally important in having an efficient coldstorage facility so please do not discount its
    importance

    3.solar panels are good only for static loads with ample and steady supply of power the whole year round
    it is of no use if there will be long rainy seasons. static loads meaning, you store and withdraw only at l
    limited time during the day.

    4.best WMS - I guess something that is within the technical capability of your staff is always best.
    if you employ one that is claimed to be best by vendors then it would be worth your cents to investigate
    and see for yourself its actual use.ask vendors to let you visit these customers

    5.forklifts - Linde,of course, is the leading brand in terms of best features. however,servicing or after sales
    service plays equal importance. it is very disappointing to have the best...on paper.
    other credible groups or distributors are : Crown, Junheingrich, Yale, Toyota for extra high lifting heights
    i apologize if there will be other brands that i have omitted due to my limited expertise on these items

    6.RFID - very important against theft and internal control. however, can be a part of your operating expenses.
    if you value good relationship to your customers then go for these but unless you add on these cost it would
    lessen your earnings.
    i suggest if your customers rent wholy one or more of your rooms exclusively, you can provide these at
    extra cost to their billing if they insist

    hope to have been helpful

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi
    Ask international suppliers of turn key projects like CT Technologies or DC Insulation Systems. They have a long history in your country and are known as high quality suppliers of both panels, compressors and not least door solutions. Remember that the doors are vital for a perfect logistic flow and very important is the speed and insulation. Door System A/S, Denmark has a good reputation in your region.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Quote Originally Posted by permafrost888 View Post
    Thank you for all your responses. I really appreciate all the help. Just have a few more questions. Regarding panel testing, how do you test the panel density? I heard from an engineer that they normally cut up a sample of the panel and weigh it. Is this sound testing procedure? I also read somewhere on the forum that you can test the panel gaps once installed by using infrared cameras. Is this the best way to test panel installation? Oh by the way, my consultant is recommending that the panels be installed horizontally and not vertically. He says that nobody has done it but based on his own experience in building cold stores for the last 40 years this is the best way to do it. Something about improving structural strength?

    to determine its density the simplest way is indeed cut a 1m x 1m panel sample and then weigh this, say for example, a 100mm(0.10m) thick panel weighing 3.8 kg will have a density of
    38 kg/m3. various test studies find that for PUR core insulated panel the best density is 38 kg/m3.

    thermograph imaging is the term best describing infrared cameras and yes it is.

    consultants are always helpful as they have vast experiences relative to their expertise.
    however,please do not be rely solely on their claim that they know what is the best even if they have been doing such for 40 years. take the grind in validating their claims by investigating discreetly on their past works or groups such as suppliers or contractors that have worked with him. even take the guts to check with their past clients as they may reveal something that is hidden to you as consultants will never openly discuss with you their failed projects.

    you mention about something about improving structural strength...please let him explain in layman's term so you can describe this to us as contrary to our experience. ok,from our side panels when laid horizontally in numerous layers impose the total weight to the bottom panel even if clips of supports hold each panel. moreover, not all panels have special joints on the outer metal skin that prevents rain water from coming in. again, contrary to what we know most high rise single-storey refrigerated warehouses successfully built have panels laid vertically. in the same manner most refrigerated warehouses (which are far far less) having horizontally laid panels suffer from leaks. f
    finally,please do not hold my explanation as the complete correct answer but just a valid input

  29. #29
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    1. Choice of compressor - what is the best compressor? Sabroe/Frick, Grasso, Mycom, other brand? Pros and cons?


    Bitzer: Piston and Transcritical CO2.
    Or
    Grasso: FX-PP Unit with twinscrews Ammonia.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hello
    There is one more compressor from INDIA and the name is KIRLOSKAR.
    It is rather the only and most preferred compressor in Industrial Refrigeration with max installation with Ammonia being zero Global warming potential ( GWP ), and zero Ozone depletion Potential ( ODP ) refrigerant. From the environmental perspective ( carbon credit ) , operating pressure ranges and due to its excellent thermodynamic properties ( significantly low charge of volume required compared to other HFC etc ) Ammonia is the most prefered natural refrigerant and is the widely used refrigerant in India, South East Asia , Middle East countries. Ammonia is the future refrigerant over HFC and is also succesfully tried in some countries even for Ac Applications.
    It is perceived to be dangerous but few safeties can make it very very user friendly.
    In India Kirloskar Compressors work 100 % with Ammonia for Nestle, Coca Cola, pepsi, Almost all Beer plants, Meat Plants, fish processing plants, food processing, Cold Storages , Milk and Milk products.
    Kirloskar Compressors would be very attractive on Total Cost of Ownership that is Initial Cost of Compressor + Operating cost, Maintenance Cost, Low downtime.
    From the efficiency point of view piston compressors are still efficient than screw wih Two stage Compressors.


    All the best for your project and eventual business success.Call
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    Last edited by Josip; 12-09-2012 at 08:13 AM. Reason: remove advertising links

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi permafrost,
    can i ask you which company do you work for?
    thank you

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi, I think you have to made sure tha consulting engineer knows of industrial refrigeration in ammonia system? sorry to say that many consulting companys are more interested to build just cold rooms, building structture and etc..... refrigeration is just a small portion to them. just to quote you one example on Condensing Temperature selection, in your area many like to use 40 deg C condensing temperature for NH3 system, but I will use 36 deg C insteated. Yes, up front your pay a biger condenser, but in long run the lower head pressure help save you compressor motor amp and give you more capacity.. if you want second opinions can contact me my contact details are in my profile. BTW, I am in the same area as you, we are specialists in ammonia system design and consultation in the market for more than 30 over yrs. I started with ' STAL refrigeration AS 'perhaps if you have heard of it before....
    Last edited by frank; 13-09-2012 at 07:44 PM.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi, I'm operating & maintaining the refrigerated warehouse in Malaysia which having about 20,000 pallets space with 18 chambers. My opinion related to this subject................ regardless what brands we are using the concern is to make sure spare-parts & service support avaible locally.

  34. #34
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    hi am working in frick and i will not say you that our compressors are the best but they are .we are even having colaboration with mycom screw blocks and we are making the whole system with oil separator oil cooler economiser motor and an oil pump.

    With Regards,
    B.Harsha Vardhan
    Engineer
    Last edited by Josip; 14-09-2012 at 04:19 PM. Reason: remove link

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I have seen various replies. Few more points
    I do not prefer tests on Single panel as such. That can be misleading. You need a GOOD COLD STORE & not good panels, or good Doors or Good Ref System.
    So you need someone who can integrate all these goods things to make a good store. SO it is important that it is not only the supplier , but the final integrator is of critical importance.
    I have seen Good panels with no Conduction cutting on floors making the cold store leaking & loosing temp all over the area & so also is the case with Ceiling jointing.
    Yes CT & DC Systems have experience on doing such projects, where in they can add lots of inputs not only for the equipments, but for the total project as such.
    Do the test - lie thernography on the total cold store & not on a single panel. That is more foolproof solution.
    The MHE in spite of high reputations of suppliers are subjected to misuse at all the times. & hence the local support is of more importance than the name itself.
    We have used LINDE, Crown, BT & all are having their own issues & only local support can take them long.
    Proper selection is also critical & there the project experience plays vital role & few simple issues can save you not only money but you shall get as Mcdonalds says , CHEAP, CLEAN & workable solution for the cold store

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Thank you for all your inputs. I must say it is a lot to digest. Sorry for the delay in replying as i was very busy the past week meeting with various suppliers. Actually a new issue just came up. In looking at RFID, it seems that there is a problem with scanning through water. I thought that metal would be the only problem but it seems that water (in our case frozen water/ice in the product) tends to block the RF signal. Have any of you experienced this? I tried using a handheld scanner and put a tag under a glass of water. The scanner couldn't read the tag. Maybe if i used a more powerful scanner?

  37. #37
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I'm thinking are there any tests out there showing the structural strength of panels while vertical versus panels that are horizontally installed? Maybe there are lab tests with figures showing tensile(?) strength or load or pressure limits?

  38. #38
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi,paisano,
    Iwasn't able to post on your thread earlier due to some call of duty.By the way i was working as an aplication engineer before in one of the refrigeration company in our country and I resigned as head engineer 2years ago to work on board the ship.Hope you apreciate the suggestions for your questions below.Cheers!

    Hi all. My company is building a 15,000 pallet 9-room 6-high cold storage facility here in the Philippines. Most rooms will be used for meat products but some rooms will be devoted to ice cream. We have hired the services of an experienced consultant. I am just a plain businessman but I am interested in the technical aspects of our project. I have some questions that I hope you guys can answer. I know there might not always be a right or wrong answer but I just wanted to hear your opinions. I also don't want to be shortchanged by suppliers. For example:

    1. Choice of compressor - what is the best compressor? Sabroe/Frick, Grasso, Mycom, other brand? Pros and cons?
    All of the mentioned compressor brands are already proven to be good performer in the refrigeration industry,but these are the following to be considered in choosing equipment for every projects:

    1.Cost of the compressor if reasonable
    2.Do the said supplier have already experience with the same aplication that you have
    3.Do they have office and trained technician close to your site that can respond immidiately in case of some tech prob that may come during your operation,always remember the cost per min of downtime.
    4.How long is the warranty for the spareparts and for the installations,is the spare available in there local warehouse?


    2. Choice of insulation panels - what is the best brand? Are there differences in quality or performance? Pros and cons? How can we tell?

    Insulation panels are very vital in refrigeration design but the reason we compute for the infiltration is to have the right thickness and material to insulate which is enough for the requirement and not to spend more money for no purpose,we quite big players/suppliers of insulation panels locally just ask them sample and send to material testing lab to make sure if the density of the said material is correct,remember the lower the temp you need more thicker insulation,polyurethane is now one of the best insulation in the practice around the world.
    Floor panels, we have the best material for this but quite expensive but in some of my previous project we have way of making it more economical and efective.Just to remind you,floor insulation is very critical,one mistake can put your money in trash bins.

    3. Solar panels - does it make economic sense?
    For your project i dont think this will help that big.

    4. Best WMS for cold storage?
    warehouse management system must be considered also but you can check it on some existing warehouse that operates already for quite long,using some better equipments loading dock design etc.

    5. Best material handling equipment? Linde, Hyster, Toyota, others?

    german brand is proven tested,but toyota and other brand has been used for a long time in some pionering cold storage operator in our country,try also jungheinrich brand

    6. RFID?
    What you mean with RFID?Is it Radio Frequency Identification Device?



    If you dnt mind where are you exactly in the Phil? I am in vacation at the moment and I am more willing to help you anytime.

  39. #39
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I would look at your application first.
    Thing to consider. Power Charges, "peak demand, low demand"
    Time of maximum operation (can loading and unloading be done at night)
    What technical expertise/parts is supported in your local area (we all know that refrigeration does fail from time to time)
    Plant lay out. For example it is best, that you have you LT rooms surrounded by the MT rooms, (reduction of heat infiltration)
    Use of energy efficient defrost. (system type depend on refrigeration configuration)
    Having work in your country, I have seen the best and worst of installation teams, so choosing the correct contractor is paramount!

  40. #40
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hoo boy thing are getting interesting here in our company. Getting different opinions from different people. Can get confusing sometimes. One more thing to get confused over: our planned facility is supposed to be 16m high inside. That would mean either 2 vertical panels (11.9m + 4.1m) or horizontal panels. Which is better? Plus we're debating whether to have steel construction inside our outside. If we go with inside steel construction, how do we put a roof above the ceiling panels? Do we even need a roof? Hmmm...wondering if you guys can help out?

  41. #41
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Permafrost,

    Where are the Philippines are you building? What type of lighting are you planning to use?

    Thanks

  42. #42
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I'm building the facility in Taguig City, Metro Manila. I'm hoping to use LED but haven't really gotten around to checking out potential suppliers. Why do you ask?

  43. #43
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    I have done several LED projects in Cold Stores in the Philippines, and have some good contacts for LED lighting services in Makati City. Please let me know if you are interested in any more info.

  44. #44
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    To all who have responded to my questions, thank you for your inputs. They are highly appreciated. I'm thinking of just going with either Isocab or DC-system for the panels at 13.5m length (vertical installation) and 175mm thick for outside and 150mm for inside. Probably Frick compressors. I'm also looking at revising the layout from double deep to VNA. I'm looking at Linde K-series VNA trucks. Going with either SAP or Oracle for ERP and WMS. Hybrid RFID and barcode labelling.

  45. #45
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    aaronnk,

    yes i'm interested in LED lighting. where are you based? what's the name of your company?

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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi Permafrost,

    I hope im not late to give you a proposal for your project. I was hooked where you will build your facility because i was born there in Taguig City . Im working now in Dubai for an Italian Company in which i can give you a proposal for the coldroom panels and LED lights. Just let me know your email address and i will send to you my proposal.

  47. #47
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi all

    If you need to make some calculations on needs for a Cold Room, you can use the following online application, is very useful:

    Refrigeration Calculator v3.2

    http://www.intarcon.com/en/index.php

    INTARCON is a company in Europe dedicated to the manufacturing and design of refrigeration equipment, and offers this calculator for helping engineers worldwide.

  48. #48
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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    permafrost888, i will presume that you are already a member of the cold srorage oprerators here. otherwise, it would be a wise move, so that you will get to know the other operators(and possible competitors), and usually, you can get some advise / feedback from them. we operate an ice block plant, but only use recips(ammonia refrigerant). My personal experience with compressor parts ? grasso usually have spares available(most of the time), same for mycom. but i always had problems with local sabroe parts . my experinece is that inventory of parts is very limited, and at times they wil indent order for you but it will take forever. also had the misfortune of having ordered parts thru them, waited for a very, very long time,. only to later know that the parts i ordered thru them were wrong. the local parts supplier didnot even bother to check the parts before sending it to us. but maybe it is only with me. just my experience.

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    Re: Cold Storage Design


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    Re: Cold Storage Design

    Hi permafrost888,

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