Refrigerant prices!!

[mikeref]

I read Magoo's comment on refrigerant price increase, thinking it was New Zealand related only.
BIG MISTAKE!!
E-mail from Heatcraft recently confirmed first stage price increase of 20%, then in July, (Next month) it goes up again.
Hundreds of dollars, Australian, per Kilo across the range of common refrigerants: R134a, R507, R404a, R410a etc.. (List price)
Have to increase my bank overdraft limit now so i can purchase my next bottle of gas

[Tesla]

Hi Mike
Actrol came to our toolbox talk & advised of these massive increases. I think just the gas levey for R404a is around $95/kG +++ from realcold. What concerned me was that they expect to run out of R22 if we have a hot sumer in Sydney. Our guys were thinking which drop in for R22 was best too with no real answers as most of the suppliers have different drop ins.

[al]

Holey moley, that brings a service call incl. refrigerant to about 300/400 bucks!! You'll be able to afford fuel for your chopper)

al

[Magoo]

Hi Mike and Tesla
gone are the days when you would have a pallet or two in workshop for conveniences sake.
Next thing once all the low lifes figure the value of it vans and workshops will be broken into, bypass the copper and take refrigerant bottles.
I have a customer with a tube ice maker with 750Kgs of 404a, he wants it leak tested fortnightly. It will be interesting times, go to a service call; 2 hours labour charge $2000.00 refrigerant

[Tesla]

Hi Guys
We had better start stock piling then just like when R12 & R11 were phased out. It's getting really expensive. I think most of these new refrigerants waste more gas now than 10 years ago - let me explain.. I work on a large site with a team of nearly 20 guys. Generally when there is a leak of a blend all the gas is reclaimed, sent to suppliers & destroyed. Then we charge with brand new refrigerant, that's the whole charge when with the old gases we would reuse the original gas & add just to top up. Where are we heading with these new gases? Will they change the gases again in another 5 years? Revenue collection for someone.

[mikeref]

Stock piling is really just a short term fix. Sooner or later, your supplies will run out unfortunately. Bottle rental will now be charged on a daily basis as well. Also, should we return any bottles with some liquid in them, there will not be a refund on it's weight.
R404 and R507 is simply not a feasible option when quoting on new installs any more. At the proposed list price of --380-- AUD per kilo, i think most will change to R134a, as it will be 1/2 the price...for now.
Existing equipment running R22 will have to change to R434, and anyone currently running R404, 507, and even R410a had better have a healthy bank balance.

[mikeref]

Hi Mike and Tesla
gone are the days when you would have a pallet or two in workshop for conveniences sake.
Next thing once all the low lifes figure the value of it vans and workshops will be broken into, bypass the copper and take refrigerant bottles.
I have a customer with a tube ice maker with 750Kgs of 404a, he wants it leak tested fortnightly. It will be interesting times, go to a service call; 2 hours labour charge $2000.00 refrigerant

Wow! 750 kg? I thought New Zealand wasn't tied into Australia's carbon tax that starts next month?

[Goober]

Wow! 750 kg? I thought New Zealand wasn't tied into Australia's carbon tax that starts next month?

We're not tied in...our system just starts a few months later. 1st January 2013

[Magoo]

Hi Goober,
have the powers to decided yet what the levies will actually be here in NZ, I beleive it will be staggered over 3 stages. Initially numbers were after 3rd stage a 10.6kg of 404 would be around $1100.00

[mikeref]

Hi Mike
Actrol came to our toolbox talk & advised of these massive increases. I think just the gas levey for R404a is around $95/kG +++ from realcold. What concerned me was that they expect to run out of R22 if we have a hot sumer in Sydney. Our guys were thinking which drop in for R22 was best too with no real answers as most of the suppliers have different drop ins.

Tesla, It is a sure bet R22 is finished here. By December this year, it will be easier to find rocking horse s--t than R22. Legal import quantity is only a fraction of what it used to be.
Time to bite the bullet and move on i guess.

[750 Valve]

Generally when there is a leak of a blend all the gas is reclaimed, sent to suppliers & destroyed. Then we charge with brand new refrigerant, that's the whole charge when with the old gases we would reuse the original gas & add just to top up. Where are we heading with these new gases? Will they change the gases again in another 5 years? Revenue collection for someone.

Crikey! I'd be getting the gas analyzed each time and then making a decision whether or not to scrap the entire charge.

[cadwaladr]

we went thru this issue and now the prices have stabilised,r22 reclaim is mighty expensive to buy but hey if you are selling r22 back to them its not worth a lot strange,2014 is the end of r22 over here i think and if you get caught with virgin r22 in your service van its a jail sentence ,my friend works at a wholesalers and he says nitrogen is the fastest moving item in his place so people are now finding and repairing leaks!and the price of the common stuff is coming down 404a/134a i guess they have too much of it now,all the major supermarkets are going down the co2 route now.by the way research them drop ins because fail to prepare prepair to fail!

[Goober]

Hi Goober,
have the powers to decided yet what the levies will actually be here in NZ, I beleive it will be staggered over 3 stages. Initially numbers were after 3rd stage a 10.6kg of 404 would be around $1100.00

Good question...as I understand it, it will not be staggered (could be wrong though) but come straight into affect 1st Janruary. The levy is linked to the world carbon price upto a maximum (at this stage) of $25 per carbon ton. So...again as I understand it... 404a as a GWP of 3922 meaning it will produce 3922 kg of CO2 per kilo of 404a released to the atmosphere..soooo..3922kilo = 3.922 tons...3.922 x $25 = $98.02 of a levy per kilo, carrying that on to a cylinder... $98.02 x 10 = $980.50 on top of the actual cost of the refrigerant. Make sense?

The other problem is that wholesalers are looking at not stocking some refrigerants due to the massive levy. Goes back to the linking of the levy to the world carbon trading market. Start of the financial year they have to take a punt at what the carbon price will be at the end of the year...say the carbon price at the start of the year is $5 per carbon ton and they set prices at that, but come the end of year the price has risen to $25 they are short the $20 per carbon ton. Multiply that by the quantities of kilos they have sold and you can see the headache. The other sting is that the tax is payable at the end of each year based on the current carbon price...so all the wholesalers will have to hedge for that. Confused?? me too.


We can't change it, so will have to deal with it as best we can.

[iceberg1988]

check this out
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226349175886

[Toolman]

check this out
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226349175886

Hey I guess your point to the link was to show that
Labour Government are into socialism , ( closely associated with communism )

[Magoo]

Hi Goober.
thanks for reply, confused yes I am totally.

[Toolman]

Thanks to the Greens & Labour Party

List price for R404 as of 1 July $2900 and thats a 10 kg bottle , OK so no-one pays list price but it gives you an idea of whats ahead .

[Toolman]

http://www.airah.org.au/imis15_prod/...VACJune12.aspx

[Magoo]

ammonia ammonia ammonia. $9.00 odd a kg here in Nz., all we need is some half intelligent can manufacturer to develop a hermetic compressor with a sleaved separate motor winding.

[mikeref]

Thanks to the Greens & Labour Party

List price for R404 as of 1 July $2900 and thats a 10 kg bottle , OK so no-one pays list price but it gives you an idea of whats ahead .

In the article you posted, there was too many zero's in the revenue figure for me to count. This is definitely going to be the (straw) that breaks the proverbial Camels back for people in this industry. suppliers and end users.
Rant warning.. I can't believe that we, in Australia are the Guinea pigs of a carbon tax grab when it has been proven that as a whole, Australia contributes: POINT 00004% of global emissions. Hit us below the belt as see what happens.
I'm already joining gauge lines to reach U.K, (REF: to another thread recently started on this subject) but haven't enough length to make it to the street yet

[pyro45686]

what gives me greif is that as a tech i am legally liable if i tell them the 300% price increase is due to the carbon tax. defamation of character type thing. i cant believe when they first started talking about it they said no one but the big industrial companies would be affected, who did they think theyd pass the cost down to.

invention and progression are the child of nessesity, so good things are bound to come from the pain.
maybe the ozone hole will close up a little.
manufacturers of secondary refrigerant and package units will thrive
NH3 and C02 will become much more viable option.
no more cashies

[Magoo]

The most annoying aspect of all this carbon tax thing is that the "BRIC 's "nations are not liable/envolved as they are emerging nations. What a load of garbage.
( Bric's = Brazil-Russia-India-China )

[Bilbo Baggins]

I have been reclaiming blends for years. Have never had a problem using only the liquid as the composition of the refrigerant is fine. So long as you know the history of the system it should not be a problem.

[kiamaian]

There is a simple answer to this problem. Use propane! It is sold in Australia under the name Hychill.

Propane doesn't damage the atmosphere and is an excellent refrigerant with relatively low running pressures.

It is safe enough to use in motor vehicles and homes on a massive scale.

Of course there is opposition to using it as so many vested interests are making a fortune out of the current arrangements.

[mikeref]

[QUOTE=kiamaian;261718]There is a simple answer to this problem. Use propane! It is sold in Australia under the name Hychill.

Propane doesn't damage the atmosphere and is an excellent refrigerant with relatively low running pressures.

It is safe enough to use in motor vehicles and homes on a massive scale.


MY reply. The problem with that is... isobutane/ propane refrigerants in Aus are currently limited due to legal and insurance issues. As far as i'm aware, only domestic and very small commercial units are operational here at this time.

Current price for BBQ gas is around 7 bucks/kilo, or about 4 pound 55/ KG. ( For the benefit of U.K. readers.)
If Refrigerant grade natural gasses take off here, it is a sure bet that it's price will increase significantly.
( Can't have us undermining the "Tax Grab")

[kiamaian]

AUSTRALIAN MEDIA REPORT 5th July 2012

THE federal government says some businesses that supply gas for refrigerators and air-conditioners are engaged in "evil price gouging" following the introduction of Labor's carbon tax.

But Climate Change Minister Greg Combet believes refrigerant companies are being "smarter" than the Brumby's bakery chain by not directly linking prices rises to the tax.
"They're just letting you draw a conclusion that somehow this is all the evil carbon tax, whereas it's actually evil price gouging in my opinion," the minister told Adelaide radio on Thursday.
"I know the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) is having a look at it."


Mr Combet named Sydney-based refrigerant company Heatcraft on Thursday as one business that was "just taking the opportunity to jack up prices" upon the introduction of the government's $23-a-tonne pollution price.
The effective carbon price for the gas R404A was $75 a tonne, but Heatcraft was hiking its price by $285 a tonne, he said.


Australian Refrigeration Association president Tim Edwards said "on the face of it" some wholesale gas suppliers were price gouging.

[Tesla]

At this cost increase it could be viable for a large industrial refrigerant reprocessing plant. That way we could treat & reuse reclaimed refrigerant within reasonable quality levels. Shocking news kiamaian - what would happen if we jacked up our prices too hehe. I think there will be good busines in more maintenance & leak testing.

[Magoo]

I was notified yesterday that the carbon tax units in NZ will be capped at $25.00 per CO2 tonne and current is $6.80 per tonne, comes into effect 1 Jan 2013, which makes tax on a can of 404A $444.0 per 10.9Kg @ $25, or $121 @ 6.80 per tonne. Proof will be the pudding so-to-speak after 01 /01 2013.
Ammonia is looking very promising as a natural refrigerant, non patentedddddd.
Anyone in OZ want to import a cheap old Toyota van stacked with cans of gas, drive on the boat in NZ and drive off in OZ.. ( joke )

[kiamaian]

Being an old fart I worked in the refrigeration industry when sulphur dioxide and methyl chloride were still being used. Both horrible gases particularly methyl chloride which will kill you without you even knowing that it is present. Then there is ammonia which has caused many servicemen terrible burns and anguish. I would rather work with propane any day. Whilst propane may not be practical to use in all existing equipment I think new installations could be designed to use propane with the addition of appropriate safety measures.

[Makanic]

My thoughts It all Stinks 300 to 350% Increase !!!!!
Maybe they should Carbon Tax Indian Food Outlets, Curry Allways gives me GAS ,Not good for the o-Zone

[mikeref]

Yes... well..Coughing on the amount of CO2 in the air that is choking me, i think that it is not our drama as certain big companies or industries firstly developed these gasses, and made a killing off the sales and now, we... as the "Guinea Pigs" of their development, have to NOW... PAY THE PRICE (And Australia's Tax grab) on their initiatives....

Lovely......
Nice to know the names of the individuals who "SHAFTED" me

[fridgey]

The media report posted by Kiamaian shows that our pollies aren't around the facts. Greg Combet doesn't even understand his own Carbon tax that he is minister for. Its all based around the refrigerants global warming potential (GWP).

CO2 has a GWP of 1, the carbon tax as of 1st July is $23AUS for every ton of CO2 (23c/kg).

R404A has a GWP of 3922, so the carbon tax on one ton of R404A (3922x23) is $90206 ($90/kg) effectively. Now there is a big difference between $90000 and $75 per ton as quoted by Combet. They don't even understand the massive impact this tax is having on our industry. And frankly I don't think our industry was even considered.

There is no question that some wholesalers are price gouging especially there list prices, and using the carbon tax as an excuse. The carbon tax on 10kg of R404A should be approx $900 plus the cost of the refrigerant. Toolman's list price of $2900, indicates that the price of the refrigerant is $2000. Now that some dam expensive R404A ($200/kg) anyone?

[mikeref]

I see there has been discussion on the ABC radio and complaints published in the newspapers.

The ACCC has clamped down on a South Australian company for saying the price rise was due to the carbon tax. There is still the issue of where the hundred + dollars was added to R404 (per kilo) on July 1 that wasn't due to the carbon tax.

[Toolman]

The S.Aust company involved would have rather not had the grief basically the government used
them as an example because they mentioned the carbon tax in there letter to there customers
the asshole government came down on them like some sort of bully when you try to defy a Bully
you know what happens you cop it .
And of course the media lapped it up and pushed it along to assist the governments agenda.
So we have to put our prices up to cover costs but ARE NOT allowed to mention why well not in
print form anyway .

[pwned]

That's crazy. Here in the USA, wholesale price on
R404A 10.9kg is $150 USD
R410A 11.35kg is about $150USD also
R22 in 13.6kg is about $400 USD. Five years ago it was $60. Two years ago it was $150.

Those are the prices service contractors pay at their supplier. Retail prices the service companies charge their customer is comparable to the prices you guys quoted... except that most of it goes to service companies, rather than the Government.

Here, the HVAC contractors often charge a $100-200 USD / kg, but the bulk of it is pocketed by the contractors. Labor rate is often $80-120 USD/hr, and they're basically mechanically inclined sales rep. Parts markup is absurd. Capacitor replacement? Usually over $300.

In US, we have similar taxes for ozone depleting refrigerant. It's based on $xx per pound x Ozone Depletion potential.

The cost of refrigerant here is negligible for residential systems compared to what rip off markups charged., but if you're charged for GWP x ton x AUD $25.. and if it's not prohibited by law, you could use a hydrocarbon blend like 502a, 22a, so on. whose GWP is about three to five.

[fridgey]

We are talking refrigerant suppliers list price here, Pwned but we could only dream of paying those sort of prices from suppliers. I haven't purchased any R404a yet post carbon tax but before it came in, I was paying about $260 AUS for 10kg.

[kiwi]

ammonia ammonia ammonia. $9.00 odd a kg here in Nz., all we need is some half intelligent can manufacturer to develop a hermetic compressor with a sleaved separate motor winding.

Why **** around with a can? Go open drive ammonia, or CO2, but yeah nothing small enough yet to go NH3 down to commercial size.

[mad fridgie]

Why **** around with a can? Go open drive ammonia, or CO2, but yeah nothing small enough yet to go NH3 down to commercial size.

Ah how wrong you are, Frigopol compressors, (The rotor is in a can, the stator is external to the refrig system)

[kiwi]

Ah how wrong you are, Frigopol compressors, (The rotor is in a can, the stator is external to the refrig system)

Nice. Any in service in NZ? They're not like those wretched oil free comps? I can't remember the name but I see them used in used in water chiller packages. Turbocor IIRC?
A can running DX with EEV and all stainless tube would be pretty sweet.

[mad fridgie]

Nice. Any in service in NZ? They're not like those wretched oil free comps? I can't remember the name but I see them used in used in water chiller packages. Turbocor IIRC?
A can running DX with EEV and all stainless tube would be pretty sweet.

There was an agent in NZ close to 20 years ago, so i would say there has to be a couple running some where?
They were quite popular in outback Aussie, (power problems and easy changing the winding)
I would struggle to see a Kiwi end user paying for a small commercial R717 system.

[SeanB]

R22 I am paying about $80 per disposacan............... Nice being in a BRICS, looks like smuggling it into countries from China will be more lucrative than smuggling cigarettes. Too bad you can't have them as carry on luggage.

R134A over $150 a disposacan though.

Wish I could have gotten one of the giant R22 shippers I saw at Carrier, 20 tons full of R22 in a single unit, some ships needed 2 as top up when they stopped in port.

[Magoo]

SeanB.
wash your mouth out, it is mongrel nations like the BRICS that continues the current situation. As for reefer ships wanting twenty tonne plus R22, words defy me and will restrain a tyrade of abuse to you lot.
grump.

[sarmisak]

WOW, I am really shocked with the gas prices that you are talking about! In Turkey, we are paying appr. 90 euros per 10.6 kg bottle, that's around 100$ per bottle, but of course we don't have any carbon taxing around here.

[SeanB]

Magoo, why are reefers serviced in Vietnam? Because the gas is cheap ( and fake as well) and labour is dirt cheap as well. You think a shipowner will fix a leak if it means the ship will be laid up for a month in doing so. A quick patch and on she will go until you run out of patches, or metal to patch.

[mikeref]

Another kick in the teeth for Australian Fridgies!

R22 jumping another 25% on October first. That will make it around 450% increase, ( Per Kilo) in 3 months.
Good luck to all in trying to pass on the never ending price hike. ....Mike.

[R600A]

Hi All

I have 2 full sealed bottles of R22 which has been sitting in the store room for too long now so if anyone is interested e-mail me bryan@ffrservices.co.uk

Bryan

[Grizzly]

Hi All

I have 2 full sealed bottles of R22 which has been sitting in the store room for too long now so if anyone is interested e-mail me bryan@ffrservices.co.uk

Bryan

Bryan.
Is that Virgin or recycled R22.
Grizzly

[r.bartlett]

Hi All

I have 2 full sealed bottles of R22 which has been sitting in the store room for too long now so if anyone is interested e-mail me bryan@ffrservices.co.uk

Bryan

Obviously it must be recycled as virgin is illegal.. email or call me tomorrow.(and an update on Croughton too would be nice!)

[Grizzly]

Obvious to those like you, that appear to know Bryan RB!
But you yourself have in the past, bemoaned the fact that there are those that flout even the obvious rules.
Mine I thought was a polite way of checking?
As Bryan's firm appears to be heavily into the domestic side of our business and may just have been unaware?
Bryan was kind enough to clarify the fact by private message and I was going to respond accordingly.
Which you have already done for me RB!
Grizzly

[r.bartlett]

Obvious to those like you, that appear to know Bryan RB!
But you yourself have in the past, bemoaned the fact that there are those that flout even the obvious rules.
Mine I thought was a polite way of checking?
As Bryan's firm appears to be heavily into the domestic side of our business and may just have been unaware?
Bryan was kind enough to clarify the fact by private message and I was going to respond accordingly.
Which you have already done for me RB!
Grizzly

You are quite right to say the above and yes I do indeed question those but Bryan fyi is the 'go to' refrigeration specialist for many of the manufacturers so he 'should' be fully aware of the regs

However I will expand or wait for the poster to respond next time :-)