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  1. #51
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science


    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmetal View Post
    Jpsmith1cm

    Well now we are talking.

    What my experience is is that once you install the product you find that the refrigeration cycles are considerably reduced just as they say, but they are also extended. So when the compressor does come on it is on longer. Not really a surprise, since it isn't responding to Air anymore it takes longer to cool product. I don't think anyone would question that. (Maybe someone will surprise me).

    But what happens next, and this takes longer on some equipment (typically on larger equipment -sometimes even upto 2 weeks) than on other types is that the equipment starts to run more smoothly. It is as though the compressor is actually happier running for longer but less often. If you know your equipment well you will feel it, like a well tuned car humming perfectly. Also factors such as the refrigerant is getting time to circulate properly, pressures equalise properly etc,etc. This is what I think they mean by 'efficiency improves'.

    What is more interesting is that, over time, the temperature of the product drops (and what I mean by that is all the product -including newly introduced produce). This means you can then adjust your set point accordingly, nearly always by one or two points upwards. I monitor this with a data logger to make sure it's safe. The range of varience of the temperature of the food also reduces, which is where the food quality sometimes improves.

    Anyway, that is what I think they are talking about when they refer to efficiency and I believe it is due to the longer cycles as well as the reduced number of cycles. Certainly if we think in terms of a car it is not at it's most efficient in the first few minutes before start up, it is also not very good for a car to keep stopping and starting and the advise with cars was always to make sure they regularly have a good run, why? because it will improve the overall efficiency of the engine!.

    Now obviously the level of efficiency gain will be different for different compressors and due to a lot of other factors the overall benefit will be different in different refrigeration. But my belief is that this is the principle at work here.

    I am actually not sure how one would measure this 'overall increase in efficiency' scientifically unless you look at factors such as energy consumption, food safety and food quality and possibly equipment lifespan. And all I am saying is that in my experience is, on those measures, it does a very good job, broadly in line with the claims they make. Obviously the equipment lifespan issue is much harder to measure but it makes sense to me and the anacdotal evidence is strong.

    They don't, as far as I am aware, say that the Endocube is going to solve all the problems of refrigeration or that it will fix other types of faults. Because I can tell you that if you have other problems with your refrigeration (faulty compressors, bad location or poor service condition) then you will not solve your problem and quite possibly not get the benefits you hope for. But assuming your equipment is in reasonable shape expect a reasonable result.

    'To be skeptical is fine; cynical is silly, biased is stupid'
    As i asserted in the first line of my last post. Simply adding a product analog to your control thermostat will not increase efficiency.

    Not in a day, not in a week, not in a month.

    The only REAL way to realize increased efficiency is to put wrenches on the system and tune it.



  2. #52
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Well researched and said and done Grizzly. In same bracket as IceCold snake oil.

  3. #53
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldmetal

    you have certainly come to the wrong place, expecting to find gullable fools to spin

    I am certainly no scientist [so the world can still breeth easy] but I am in a position to carry out real world tests

    If your company would like to send me a cube [FOC] then I would be happy to spend some time using it & recording the results

    these would not include indepth analasyse of the product [which will still have to be assessed at some point]

    but they will be a good starting block to show how it performs against a range of produce and system amp draw which the others here who all know me can rest assured they are recieving 100% fact and can also decide how and what they want me to do with it

    I have yours & 'Guys' emails for contact... if you'd like to take advantage of this olive branch then I'll drop you a line with my address

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  4. #54
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I did some digging today and came up with, among other things, an Australian phone number for Endocube. TRYING to keep an open mind, i called them to see if i could purchase, (not borrow) just one for a specific coldroom i had in mind. One that i know like the back of my hand.
    Had to endure the sales pitch first before i got a word in edgewise...So what will it cost me?.. Oh really, that much??.. Not worth the trouble as i was prepared to test this, at my own expense and any possible collateral damage... or not.
    Not a good marketing plan as this potential customer has found out that your device is sold at a greatly reduced price elsewhere.. No free sausage sizzle or jumping castle here
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  5. #55
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    I did some digging today and came up with, among other things, an Australian phone number for Endocube. TRYING to keep an open mind, i called them to see if i could purchase, (not borrow) just one for a specific coldroom i had in mind. One that i know like the back of my hand.
    Had to endure the sales pitch first before i got a word in edgewise...So what will it cost me?.. Oh really, that much??.. Not worth the trouble as i was prepared to test this, at my own expense and any possible collateral damage... or not.
    Not a good marketing plan as this potential customer has found out that your device is sold at a greatly reduced price elsewhere.. No free sausage sizzle or jumping castle here
    You are one up on me! I rang, they checked me out whilst talking to them, got a flea in the ear, and promise that a technical person would contact me. Not happened, I must be on the black list. I wonder why?
    But good on your for having an open mind, and willing to have punt. Do you want to buy a "BOOST" go on please, pretty please, free FUD with every unit. Marketing not my strongest field.

  6. #56
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Hey frigi you trolling???
    Are you getting it up the rump from or with Coldmetal??
    Or are you just the usual bellend who think's he's witty?
    Cheers
    Stu
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

  7. #57
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Guess that answers that one. Twat.
    Tool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
    If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!

  8. #58
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Hi Frigi, you should really get another email address if yous gonna pretend to be some averagy Joe from the States instead of one of our antipodean chums...

    http://onergy.com.au/
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  9. #59
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by frigi View Post
    Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
    If you must know, I'm currently off work recuperating from a fairly minor injury sustained when I drove a 1/2" twist drill into my left hand.

    All I've got to do is to hang out on the interweb blogs and harass snake-oil salesmen until I've fully healed and can get back to it.

  10. #60
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by frigi View Post
    Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
    The really stupid thing is if you could prove your product worked, we'd all be interested in fitting them! Talk about a missed opertunity! I have said i'd like to try one but your uk rep seems not to be interested?
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  11. #61
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by frigi View Post
    Do any of you guys who blog on this site actually work, it seems like you spend all your life making comment about this endocube product. LOL
    Hello and welcome back, and why not make comments about endocube? This is work! I do sleep, root, eat, so not all my life, a couple of hours to date!
    I do hope that you are going to furnish us with some engineering proof of principle.
    That is all that is being requested!
    "trust me that it works" does not count, we get this every day from politicians!

  12. #62
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    If you must know, I'm currently off work recuperating from a fairly minor injury sustained when I drove a 1/2" twist drill into my left hand.

    All I've got to do is to hang out on the interweb blogs and harass snake-oil salesmen until I've fully healed and can get back to it.
    Let me guess there JP, that you were trying to make your own version of an endocube, I would place the plastic block in a vice first!!!!!!!

    When I was of worked injured, I also had ear ache.




    Her Indoors was the cause

    Hope you get better soon.
    Mad

  13. #63
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    The really stupid thing is if you could prove your product worked, we'd all be interested in fitting them! Talk about a missed opertunity! I have said i'd like to try one but your uk rep seems not to be interested?
    I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  14. #64
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted.
    Spill the beans there Mike, how much give or take a few $, not to break the rules.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Spill the beans there Mike, how much give or take a few $, not to break the rules.
    5 bottles of Jamaican Rum.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  16. #66
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
    They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
    The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
    As a useless F*** that I am when come to computers and tinternet, I can not show you this.

  17. #67
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Let me guess there JP, that you were trying to make your own version of an endocube, I would place the plastic block in a vice first!!!!!!!

    When I was of worked injured, I also had ear ache.




    Her Indoors was the cause

    Hope you get better soon.
    Mad
    I suppose I could make a mock-up of the endocube for $5 or so.

    A plastic box, a bit of gelatin and a mounting strap. Piece of cake.



    Actually, I was working on a model car for my son and the bit broke through and caught my hand on the other side.

  18. #68
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Here is a snipet of the technical document
    Capture.PNG
    Your comments on this part of theory.

  19. #69
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Coldman thinks he can save 16 to 22% energy only by reducing start ups. What a good joke. Show us your calculation so that we can rectify this or explain at least why you're wrong. In a supermarket with a pack, it may cycle at a rate of 30 sec/30sec, the compressors will keep running, only the SV will cycle very short.
    I'm surprised you could convince already so many peoples with your Tupperware box filled with perhaps simple gelly. Apparently all very bad technicians bought this or buyers in companies who don't understand the first word about thermodynamics.
    You or one of you sales persons tried also to promote this on LinkedIn where there was the same skepticism of the readers.
    Like Chillerman remarked, this thread was already picked up by Google's search engines and it's listed now already on the first page.
    Endocube, Endocube, Endocube,..go on Google, pick up these last ones.
    Endocube Snake Oil for the last time
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

  20. #70
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    And Frigi - aka Coldman - what stupid to act like this .Typical something for a salesman. Do YOU work ever if I count the length of your posts - excluding these on other websites - and the average lines you write/week? You're on the top this week on RE.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

  21. #71
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
    They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
    The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
    Mad

    if you email me it, can unload and post the link

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  22. #72
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    I was after just one myself but not at the price i was quoted.
    Mike

    forget endocube, I am selling enviro-balls
    they may look like a dogs ball and have a few pictures of bones on the side, but trust me they are food safe !

    mates rates of course, so $50 each if you buy a 1000

    oh and you can get refrigeration managers that know jack diddly to buy them... sorted

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Based on those figures "Mad", 3 minutes on and 2 minutes off gives us a 60% duty cycle.
    8 minutes on and 7 minutes off gives us a 53.3% duty cycle. (I may seem a little picky here) but where did the other 6.7% of run/ cooling duty go?..
    Maybe it was not accurate minutes logged to begin with.
    Coldman,if i am to believe in actual savings without compromising my customers products, than a show of good faith would be an excellent start to your marketing.
    I'd take advantage of the 50,000+ members here and hand out a free Endocube to the select few who feel your product is worth our independent test drive, so to speak.... Who knows, it may prove it's worth, or it may crash and burn. Your choice.. (I've given my advice freely @ my expense/hour)
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  24. #74
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Gents

    courtesy of Mad Fridgie

    https://rapidshare.com/files/2092084...nical_Pack.pdf

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Thanks C.M. AKA, chillerman.
    Last edited by mikeref; 22-03-2012 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Argh, that attachment is right on top of the link for page 2.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  26. #76
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Speaking to the concept of reducing starts to save energy.

    You MAY save a couple of pennies worth of energy by doing this, but if I saw a system cycling off and on every two minutes, I would be questioning the setup of that system, not reaching for an Endocube.

  27. #77
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    Hi Frigi, you should really get another email address if yous gonna pretend to be some averagy Joe from the States instead of one of our antipodean chums...

    http://onergy.com.au/
    Monkey how did you determine this? Just curious I tried to figure it out but was unable to.

  28. #78
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I have just had a call from Onergy in Australia, I thank them for that.
    They have emailed me the technical pack. Authorization was given to post.
    The file is to big for me to post sorry boys and girls.
    As a useless F*** that I am when come to computers and tinternet, I can not show you this.
    The "Technical Pack" is not so very technical, just more sales literature, they claim CCFRA has independantly verified a 26% energy savings, which if true everyone woud want so why dont they publish the data from the study in there technical data sheet. They also claim in that document that there has been extensive in house and independent testing of their product which confirmed a "significant" reduction in energy use. The only reason I can see for them not being willing to share the data with potential customers is that their definition of "significant" and ours probably differ a bit.

  29. #79
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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Gents

    as all the regulars here would know at a glance this is total bulls-turd

    15: “How does endoCube affect the temperature inside the refrigerator or

    freezer?”

    A: endoCube actually lowers the air (“case”) temperature due to more efficient

    cooling and, to compensate for this new lower temperature, the thermostat setting

    is adjusted upward. In other words, endoCube achieves the same air temperature

    with a higher set point, thus saving energy
    .


    Right so lets break this down,

    1: We want an air temp of 2*c so we set our equipment to 2*c

    Result is 2*c air temp = X amount of energy used

    2: We fit an endoncube so we adjust the set point to 4*c (as they say its 2*c out)

    Result is 2*c air temp = exactly the same X amount of energy used

    So where's the energy saving, surely buyers of ENDOCUBE Endocube endocube are not that stupid

    It's been a long day and am shattered so thats just from a quick read

    Can anyone else break down some of this 'Endocube Technical Pack' ?

    R's chillerman (oh & aka cm, aint that right mike ?)
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 22-03-2012 at 09:25 PM.
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    JP, I have to agree savings made on start up only would be very small. The inrush current size/time and residual heat caused by the in rush can be calculated, and so savings can be calculated. This data I do not have to predicted with absolute accuracy. (need to come from a comp manufacturer)
    Cycling times, will vary from application to application, but the need for close control to ensure food quality is driving this requirement. Are the food techs, giving use wrong info?

    Emmett; I have been onto CCFRA, they are unable to furnish any documents (confidentially), I have reworded a question, to confirm that at least some testing has been completed. No response on this one. I have no known contacts within this company.
    A tech data sheet would be great, as at least we could analyze this, and check testing methods.
    I would check out the Endocube site in the USA, check their results! Looks good to the untrained eye.

    The REAL cm.
    You talking about an energy mass balance, energy in-energy out. When testing anything, you must always compare apples for apples. That is why companies spend millions on test gear, so that they repeatability. As far as I can see, the endocube data has been cherry picked, to show results. As we all know simple changes in air temp and humidity dramatically changes the refrigeration load and refrigeration equipment performance.
    Do a test on a hot and humid day, then a test on a cold dry day. What a great saving I will have made. No changes to anything.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    haha, just checked "frigi"s email address there, priceless! its kinda sad the lengths they're going to with their lies to make sales. I guess the only good thing is, a google search on endocube brings ya to these threads where they're exposed for the frauds that they are. I know it'd be enough to put me off buying their product anyway...

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    What a classic, how stupid can some people be!!!



    To answer the original question...

    Endocube = Hoodwink
    ...and she said "give it to me you big fridgie"

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    For weeks we were getting battered on this thread from people saying why are you promoting this product, are you a share holder, well no we are not, and yes we tested because a client asked us too. Everyone is talking about compromising the food with Endocube, and other are talking about liquid run times, defrost cycle reductions etc etc etc. Well I called the company myself, unlike many who keep moaning, and they sent me the full NSF testing information with everything covered on maintaining regulated temperatures and all we needed to know for a certain area we are looking to show another client who we know would ask about certain concerns.

    I then was sent a flyer a client was emailed by there utility company offering a rebate on this product. I have worked with clients trying to get rebates on variable speed motors and it is a nightmare. The utilities need a lot of evidence before offering a rebate, and this one particular is one of the largest.

    So from a food safety stand point, and an engineering proof it works stand point. I think that have got it covered. and while we keep opening threads. they are getting more interest.

    Good luck to them

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    For weeks we were getting battered on this thread from people saying why are you promoting this product, are you a share holder, well no we are not, and yes we tested because a client asked us too. Everyone is talking about compromising the food with Endocube, and other are talking about liquid run times, defrost cycle reductions etc etc etc. Well I called the company myself, unlike many who keep moaning, and they sent me the full NSF testing information with everything covered on maintaining regulated temperatures and all we needed to know for a certain area we are looking to show another client who we know would ask about certain concerns.

    I then was sent a flyer a client was emailed by there utility company offering a rebate on this product. I have worked with clients trying to get rebates on variable speed motors and it is a nightmare. The utilities need a lot of evidence before offering a rebate, and this one particular is one of the largest.

    So from a food safety stand point, and an engineering proof it works stand point. I think that have got it covered. and while we keep opening threads. they are getting more interest.

    Good luck to them
    Why not post the full NSF testing data! I am happy to be proved wrong.
    My understanding of the NSF is around food safety, not food quality or energy saving. Prof Don, indicated that food safety was not really an issue, I will accept his opinion on this matter.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I'm pretty sure the NSF stated that the Endocube is foodsafe, the gel inside the box.
    I hardly can imagine that they will make statements of the foodsafety in all different refrigeration plant setups. It's like saying that a PTC probe is foodsafe or a PTC more foodsafe than a PT100.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Mad Fridge. I am sure they would be willing to discuss the food safety side. why don't you ask them and see if they share the same info we have received. maybe this will help not only you, but other who don't care what we have seen.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mechanicalman View Post
    Mad Fridge. I am sure they would be willing to discuss the food safety side. why don't you ask them and see if they share the same info we have received. maybe this will help not only you, but other who don't care what we have seen.
    Hi, I have accepted what prof don said, "no" issues with food safety, if with or without an endocube, the core temp of a product is maintained at the "same" required temp.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Hi MF, my pennies worth
    I have the upmost respect Prof Don., that is a given.
    Having being in the food industry for what seems multi decades, core temps of product are critical whether being raw chicken products, deep butt temps of quartered beef on the hook, or further processed cooked meat products, rapid chilled or blast frozen,or what ever.
    MAF here in NZ have a defined pull down senario/ regime for all and sundry. Dumbing down air temps to save energy would only prolong core temp targets and time frames and promote bacto build ups. Most manufacturers have blast chilling systems that ramp with air temps and governed by core sampling monitoring temps., all data logged for referencing as batch loads and tractability and quality control.
    For the after market( after intial processer ) side of things anything is possible, chillers , whatever at supermarkets will do anything to save energy. Effectively the core temp can be maintained with floating air temps, it is a fine line between making people ill and saving energy costs.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Post of 24 February 2012 of Mechanicalman (one of his/her 27 posts only about Endocube) : "We do have an interest. we have recently started as a dealer representative. but we want to know more on rack systems and not just walk-ins do you know of any application in supermarkets? as the only information we have received is from Europe and not the U.S
    So again...sales talk and not real life figures. He/she even admits that they don't have figures for the US for racks. We all have to agree..the only thing that certainly works better then their gel-filled box is their marketing machine. But then again, it all seems for me brain-washed yuppies not aware of the basics of thermodynamics and the working principles of a compressor and a refrigeration plant in general. If it was that good, then we all should have seen it everywhere.
    It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I may have it wrong but this talk that the NSF have 'approved' endocube surely only applies to the fact that the endocube 'gel' is safe to use within the 'food' environment.
    Brian - Torquay, Devon, UK
    I have to stop saying "how stupid can you be?" to my co-workers.
    They're starting to take it as a challenge...

    BASIC MAINTENANCE. If it doesn't move and it should then use WD40. If it moves but it shouldn't then use Duct Tape.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Surely this product has had enough "airtime" Guys.

    I know how incensed some feel about this product invading "OUR" website.
    Sadly, since the personal details of participants has been relaxed.
    Any idiot or snake oil salesman can come on the forum and they do not even have to lie about their occupation anymore.

    Is it not time for this one to sleep?
    Grizzly
    Last edited by Grizzly; 31-03-2012 at 11:55 PM.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    The company sent us the report. it was the same question we asked. maybe safe to use but the report shows how it was tested and all the food types tested against. it has a certificate as a food temperature monitoring and refrigeration control device. in fact the NSF this week have announced that they will now be giving out Energy Star certification on equipment and products which show savings. so it looks like another certification coming this way. I think it is funny how all these people go against the product. but we are satisfied and those who have never seen or used cannot judge. Simple

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    First, I openly admit that I'm nowadays an A/C guy through and through...
    However at the beginning of time I started out as a proper fridge guy working mainly on supermarkets.

    Now this "endocube" discussion, isn't it really a red herring?
    It's not a new technology, in fact, rather the opposite is true... Back when I worked in supermarkets and slaughter houses it was common practise that smaller walk in fridges would have a small bottle of water/bleach solution in a holder on the wall with the thermostat's bulb submerged in it. This was purely to stop the compressor to cycle every time the door were opened.
    And it goes back 25+ years, to the good old times before political correctness, HSE on steroids or digital controls.

    Now that someone developed it further in to a gel and what I assume is a cubical canister for it... Bah Humbug, doesn't make it something new.

    That it's a trade off between quality of produce and energy saving/lifespan of the system? But of course it is, in fact everything are... You could save energy by turning the fridge's thermostat up but you don't, you could get a longer lifespan on the produce by getting it down to 0.2*C within 10 minutes and keeping it within 0.1-0.3*C but you don't.

    Endocube?
    Increased deadband?
    Restart timer?
    True on timer?
    Thermal weight?

    What difference does it make as long as the balance between cost/saving/quality is right?



    .

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Mechanicalman.
    I hope you will bless us with your enlightenment on other topics in the future!
    Or is it only ever to be this one tiresome topic.
    By the way it's what you do with the paper that counts and I can think of one use for your soon to be received certificate.

    I suppose yours is a quite clever tactic because rear end cube is staying on the forum far longer than it should.

    We should thank you for paying towards the upkeep of this forum and for reminding the participants what the majority of them feel about your chosen topic.
    The more that argue this point the longer the advert is recognised for what it is.

    I should thank you for changing my opinion, maybe we should keep debating this.

    At least until the advert period expires anyway.


    Many thanks Grizzly

    Brilliant points made there Viking.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 01-04-2012 at 12:36 AM.

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Mad

    I thankyou for posting this thread

    It brings a chuckle to my chops everytime I get a chance to login

    Looking at the high level of experience/knowledge of the regular forum posters here
    And Endocube's spin doctors still trying to fool them, is absolutely hilarious

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?.
    buddy

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    coldmetal.
    The product itself may well be a very good product simulator, and may well be food safe, never argued this point. Thermal inertia devices have been round since dot one. (and have been used for monitoring)
    How ever your thread did not give any technical or engineering proof of why the product saves energy or improves product quality.

    I am all for new products and ideas, this what i do for a living. So I ask a question the scientists, in refrigeration and food technology. Here is the reply. (Prof Don Cleland, a world respected refrigeration academic)

    Terry

    May the Marketers inherit the earth along with the lawyers!

    From a quick look and listen, nothing incorrect but a lot of exaggeration and twisting of facts plus a bit of smoke and mirrors.

    The key generic issue is whether refrigeration systems should be controlled based on product or air temperatures. Many argue for product temperature but there are argument both ways and on balance I tend to support air temperatures. Some of the arguments and rationale are:
    • Putting the thermostat in product (or Endocube) buffers it from air temperature fluctuations so the refrigeration on/off cycle is slowed and a tighter "dead span" on the thermostat can be used. Yes, fewer (longer) on/off cycles can have a equipment maintenance benefit but the energy use benefit should be slight (start power is higher but startup is still a very small faction of the total run-time).
    • Control of product temperature is what really matters so you should use it directly as the control parameter; the counter is that you only know what the product temperature is where the probe is (one position in one product), what about the temperature in products in other positions in the room and in other positions in the same product?; the surface of the product will experience greater temperature fluctuations than an internal position so any benefit on product quality are probably illusionary (temperature variability of thermostat looks more stable but air temperature and hence product surface temperature is still cycling; in fact it is possible that magnitude of temp cycles is higher than with air temp control not lower, but because if you only measure temp in product then you are not aware of air temp fluctuations)
    • Variability in a refrigerated is with both time and position. Measurement of air temperature (preferable multiple probes) allows this to be "seen" and taken into account with controls. Dampering the thermostat response to changes in air temperature increases the risk of air temperatures somewhere in the room getting very hot or very cold (relative to the average) but undetected; if this occurs the product in these areas may experience unacceptable temperatures. Possible results are partial product freezing if the storage temp is just above the freezing point of the product or some product being too warm.
    • Food safety should not be significantly affected by the 2 approaches as the difference in product temps are unlikely to be large and lead to safety issue
    • Food quality can be significantly affected as the difference in temp can be large enough to lead to quality degradation e.g. if surface of product partially freezes because on cycle is prolonged. My view is that the longer refrigeration on/off cycles could lead to greater (not less) product surface temperature variation and hence greater quality issues not less.
    • Ultimately if the air temp is controlled then the product temp will be OK (once cooled to storage temp). However, the opposite is not true. If a product temp is OK, the air temperature (and hence adjacent product surface temp) may be significantly different for short periods of time potentially leading to quality issues.
    • In other words, if you control on product temp then temp control looks good but the actual fluctuations in air and surface temp may be worse than if air temp control was employed; it is just that you are not measuring them anymore.
    For me the best solution is use of multiple air probes so variability in room is measured and taken into account PLUS measures to ensure short-cycling and temperature setpoint over-shoot are minimised e.g. modulating temperature control (e.g. BPR or fan speed) rather than on/off liquid supply; avoid excessive oversizing of refrigeration system etc.

    Even if you decide to go the product temperature way, why buy an endocube? Just put the thermostat in some product - a lot cheaper.

    I hope the above makes some sense. We have been talking about doing a paper at IRHACE and other fora on the issue of product vs air temp control as we are concerned that pracrtice will change without people being aware of the potential downsides.

    Cheers
    Don
    I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?
    buddy

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    I,d like to see the original email to this guy as his reply sounds as though he has been prepped with a loaded question?
    This the original email.


    Hi Don,

    I hope all is well!

    I thought you may be interested about the claims made by the Endocube product. The product is now being heavily pushed in our neck of the woods.

    http://www.endocubeinfo.com/

    I would appreciate your thoughts and that of the food technologists if you have the time,

    warmest regards

    Terry


    You can make your own mind up if you think I have prepped the prof!

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    I just listened to the voice over for a few seconds and it immediatly triggered another concern

    ''endocube mimicks the properties of food and beverage''

    well thats just finished it for me

    food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accuratly immitate them all

    Sorry Coldmetal but endocube is on my list to advise as avoid

    R's chillerman
    Hi Chillerman,

    I always enjoy your posts but based on your statement about food and beverages all react differently to heat transfer and one device can not accurately imitate them all that is absolutely true. but isnt that the same as having a "range" or an "average" temperature of products in one Cold-room such as a produce cold-room with lettuce, avocados etc stored which has different specific heats and heat transfer?

    If we didnt compromise and draw the line somewhere we would have one cold-room for Avacodos, one cold-room for Lettuce, one cold-room for fish, one cold-room for lamb and every other type of food stored with different specific heat and transfer rates in cold-rooms around the World.

    So the Endocube compound inside it is doing exactly that, covering a "range" or an"average" just like cold-room storage covers a "range" now all over the World.

    We have to draw a line somewhere.

    Jeeees hope that makes sense!
    buddy

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    Re: Endocube Hoodwink or Science

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    This the original email.


    Hi Don,

    I hope all is well!

    I thought you may be interested about the claims made by the Endocube product. The product is now being heavily pushed in our neck of the woods.

    http://www.endocubeinfo.com/

    I would appreciate your thoughts and that of the food technologists if you have the time,

    warmest regards

    Terry


    You can make your own mind up if you think I have prepped the prof!
    Looks good to me Terry.
    buddy

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