Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!

[mikeref]

Ah, Mad. You snuck in when i was composing. Hope i haven't undermined your comment

[Grizzly]

Should I have said "Delayed control" or at least "delayed responce" then?
Sorry Guys
I have misunderstood this is not a one size fits all scenario then and I can see were this type of control would indeed have merit in some of the applications you are describing.
Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

Yo mike no problems whats so ever, the more opinions the better.
Grizzy, you are right it is not one product that fits all, but what products are.
There are many energy saving devices (well meant to be), all with great results, but normally without the fundamentals to back it up. You should ask questions always, also do not trust what I say, keep asking, for alternative opinions. Then you make your mind up.
I also make energy saving products, (unfortunately my marketing is shyte.), so I am use to people ripping into me and the product. As an engineer I should be able to prove principle, and know the limits of the application.

[Grizzly]

Interesting MF. You may question your own marketing, but I cannot fault your reasoning.
No doubt we will speak again.
Cheers Grizzly

[paulg88]

Is this guy for real? The day he joins RE, his first post is a blatant advertisement, and then "frigi" who just happened to join up to RE the very next day seems to just show up in mechanical mans threads to assure us the product is just great, hahaha

[Segei]

If you look at the test results, on the ecocube web site, it shows that the core temp of the food increases, compared to that of the previous setting. The savings indicated by the ecocube are based around increasing the thermostat set point. Energy is Energy, this product does not change the energy dynamics of the system at a set condition. The savings come from reducing the need for cooling, basically raising the set point. The ecocube does not add more insulation to the room, nor does increase the natural refrigeration effect.
It may just be that we are over chilling our food, and the ecocube may well high light this problem.
In food production, core temp measurement and control is used very heavily (and even regulated in some sectors)
Your food, normally comes with a label, store below -18C for example. You Know that if the temp is below -18C your product core temp will be some where close.

Again, this conclusion based on test results. However, we are engineers and I don't understand why core temperature is higher. Assume that initially air temperature was set to 38F. It will fluctuate from 35F to 41F and product temperature will be 38F. With endocube air temperature will fluctuate from 32F to 44F and product temperature will be 38F as well.
My concerns that all conclusions based on certain tests without explanation why it happened.

[Segei]

Yo mike no problems whats so ever, the more opinions the better.
Grizzy, you are right it is not one product that fits all, but what products are.
There are many energy saving devices (well meant to be), all with great results, but normally without the fundamentals to back it up. You should ask questions always, also do not trust what I say, keep asking, for alternative opinions. Then you make your mind up.
I also make energy saving products, (unfortunately my marketing is shyte.), so I am use to people ripping into me and the product. As an engineer I should be able to prove principle, and know the limits of the application.

I don't believe in energy saving devices that can't be explained.
This is the reason why. Usually, to save energy we should improve efficiency of the refrigeration plant. Efficiency means energy use per unit of refrigeration. E=P/RE. P is energy. RE is refrigeration capacity. However, we can measure only energy. Result will be valid only if RE is constant. However, when you play with RE you can get any result you want. This is the reason I'm skeptical about test results that can't be explained. They have opportunity to play with RE.

[mechanicalman]

I think too many people are arguing over something they haven't physically tried. I was originally posting this information based on our own findings. as an engineer myself and not saying I am the best in what I do, nor am I saying the best in what we do. But you can get energy savings from this device.

By placing the endocube over the air temperature sensor you are then encasing the probe, the formula in the cube is made to replicate a shelf fish as a small item of food type and the most sensitive temperature variation.

The product wasn't designed as an energy saving device, it was in fact as a food temperature monitoring device. it was the fact that after encasing the air temperature probe into the endocube the equipment started to run 3 degrees colder, it was then after turning the set point back up in line with the required temperature the equipment was saving as it wasn't running as hard to meet lower temps.

This means when doors are opened the compressor wasn't kicking in based on air temperatures moving up and down. Food temperatures move a lot slower so no need to have food being over cooled.

this them showed us longer run times but much longer rest times. we have now seen a reduction of 47% less starts on the compressor, and an 18% saving on a walk-in cooler we have also taken the defrost down dramatically also down to 1 in 3

[Segei]

"...the equipment started to run 3 degrees colder". What do you mean? Is this discharge pressure, suction pressure, suction temperature, air temperature or anything else?

[mechanicalman]

Air temperature

[Segei]

I thought that major focus was on product temperature. Definitely, it takes time to cool endocube so plant should run longer and at lower suction pressure. If you increase air temperature, product temperature will increase as well.

[mechanicalman]

The Air temperature probe is inside the endocube. And because of this the the equipment stats to run colder, it is this set point we turned up by 3 degree which then stabled the food temperature to remain stable at 38c and even when the door opens the compressor only comes on in line with the set point of the food temperature and not air temperature.

[mad fridgie]

The Air temperature probe is inside the endocube. And because of this the the equipment stats to run colder, it is this set point we turned up by 3 degree which then stabled the food temperature to remain stable at 38c and even when the door opens the compressor only comes on in line with the set point of the food temperature and not air temperature.

And that is what itdoes (typo I think, 38C, should be 38F)
This clearly shown on the endocube web site.
It also clearly shows, that the "product temp" without the endocube was at an average of 34F, also showing variable air temps. 4F increase in product temp, thus increased average air temp would indeed save energy.
With the endocube installed, no reference was made to the air temp, but the temp within the endocube.
The endocube for sure would be great on room thermometers and alarm sensing, as for control, I would say horses for courses. The energy savings come from awareness not from the product directly.

[frank]

Is this guy for real? The day he joins RE, his first post is a blatant advertisement, and then "frigi" who just happened to join up to RE the very next day seems to just show up in mechanical mans threads to assure us the product is just great, hahaha

Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.

[mad fridgie]

Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.

Not sure what means, but as shown (can not rember thread number) edcocube are presently doing their stuff in Australia! If smells like fish then it either fish, or ??????????

[mechanicalman]

No Endocube has an office in Florida, New York, Australia, United Kingdom. Manufacturer is Universal Master Products Ltd U.S Distributor is Refrigerator saver & they have a dealer in Australia Onergy and another guy in S America. We have had conversation with them several times. nice enough guys and the inventor is a guy called Harry who seemed to know his industry inside out. I think we have had a lot of bickering like old women on these threads. we have done our own tests and seen positive results. we didn't think it would work either but it did and does. if you cannot take my word call them in UK Florida where ever and try it yourself. I like you have been on the tools for years and seen all kinds of gimmicks. I thought this was another of those magic bullet items. but we did our testing and were proven wrong but in a pleasantly surprised way. we only investigated deeper as we had a client looking for more stable temperatures and got them what they needed through this device. now we have installed them into seven stores. And that is enough to get us more involved with the product based on this clients reputation.

[servicefiter562]

servicefiter562
Not sure what differance the sst has to do with the ability of the cube to mimic product temp. I have been testing the device in 2- large refrigerated warehouse's for the last 2- months. Defrost times based on liquid run time,inital settings before cube installed 18hrs to24hrs. After cube was installed i have defrost set at 168hrs, dock,coolers and freezers, with no ice or frost build up and temps within a 2* window. Outside ambients 35* to 60*, humidity 35% to 55%. This is on 1500 ton R-717 recirculated system with hot gas defrost. Estamated savings of annual k.w. due to reducing number of defrosts per coil based on tonnage of coil and k.w. rate, multiplied by the number of defrosts per coil. Number of coils in facility 28. K.w.rate .08. Estamated savings $8000.00 to 9500.00 a year, that number was figured at 78hrs liquid run time not the current 168hr run time. It appears to be working well to myself and my customer.

[Segei]

servicefiter562
Not sure what differance the sst has to do with the ability of the cube to mimic product temp. I have been testing the device in 2- large refrigerated warehouse's for the last 2- months. Defrost times based on liquid run time,inital settings before cube installed 18hrs to24hrs. After cube was installed i have defrost set at 168hrs, dock,coolers and freezers, with no ice or frost build up and temps within a 2* window. Outside ambients 35* to 60*, humidity 35% to 55%. This is on 1500 ton R-717 recirculated system with hot gas defrost. Estamated savings of annual k.w. due to reducing number of defrosts per coil based on tonnage of coil and k.w. rate, multiplied by the number of defrosts per coil. Number of coils in facility 28. K.w.rate .08. Estamated savings $8000.00 to 9500.00 a year, that number was figured at 78hrs liquid run time not the current 168hr run time. It appears to be working well to myself and my customer.

Is it cooler or freezer? Do you think that endocube influence on rate of frost formation?

[Segei]

And that is what itdoes (typo I think, 38C, should be 38F)
This clearly shown on the endocube web site.
It also clearly shows, that the "product temp" without the endocube was at an average of 34F, also showing variable air temps. 4F increase in product temp, thus increased average air temp would indeed save energy.
With the endocube installed, no reference was made to the air temp, but the temp within the endocube.
The endocube for sure would be great on room thermometers and alarm sensing, as for control, I would say horses for courses. The energy savings come from awareness not from the product directly.

I looked at these graphs again. Original air temperature set point was 35F. Air temperature fluctuated from 35F to 37F. Product temperature was 36F. I agree with this. Why don't we just increase set point to 39F? Air temperature will fluctuate from 39F to 41F? Product temperature will be 40F. So we have opportunity to increase temperature not because of endocube, because initial temperature was set too low.

[servicefiter562]

seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works

[mad fridgie]

Refrigeration is based around a simple principle of an energy mass balance.
Any system for a set condition requires "x" cooling, this is fundamental to out industry. So to reduce the "x' cooling, you do need to do something that load profile, for example, more insulation, less air infiltration, lift the temperature and so on. Is there an argument here.
To increase the efficiency, of an existing plant, you have change the working conditions of the plant, change in SCT, SST, SC, HP and so on. This again is fundamental to our industry.
The ecocube does not change any of the load requirement for a set condition nor does over influence the working conditions of the refrigerant plant at the set conditions.
However to achieve the savings indicated, the refrigerated area internal conditions have changed. The room and the product becomes warmer. This is clearly shown on the test results given on the ecocube web site!
If this not true please explain the savings, based upon basic fundamental engineering principles.
The principle of thermal lag, is nothing new, this product may well be the best product simulator.

[mad fridgie]

I looked at these graphs again. Original air temperature set point was 35F. Air temperature fluctuated from 35F to 37F. Product temperature was 36F. I agree with this. Why don't we just increase set point to 39F? Air temperature will fluctuate from 39F to 41F? Product temperature will be 40F. So we have opportunity to increase temperature not because of endocube, because initial temperature was set too low.

You are correct. This elevated temperature will give you the savings.
Because the air temp is higher the SST will also be higher, so ice formation is reduced, and even during the off cycle, natural defrost will occur more quickly.
If some one, decides to look at energy efficiency with a product, they also tend to look at the cause of the energy use. Often small changes are made in other areas, to save energy, these savings all get lumped into the saving of the device installed.
If you look further down the ecocube test data, read the comments, one indicates that one system was optimized (it has a small problem) without the ecocube it is unlikely that this problem would not have been found. Which in itself is not a bad thing.

[Segei]

Refrigeration is based around a simple principle of an energy mass balance.
Any system for a set condition requires "x" cooling, this is fundamental to out industry. So to reduce the "x' cooling, you do need to do something that load profile, for example, more insulation, less air infiltration, lift the temperature and so on. Is there an argument here.
To increase the efficiency, of an existing plant, you have change the working conditions of the plant, change in SCT, SST, SC, HP and so on. This again is fundamental to our industry.
The ecocube does not change any of the load requirement for a set condition nor does over influence the working conditions of the refrigerant plant at the set conditions.
However to achieve the savings indicated, the refrigerated area internal conditions have changed. The room and the product becomes warmer. This is clearly shown on the test results given on the ecocube web site!
If this not true please explain the savings, based upon basic fundamental engineering principles.
The principle of thermal lag, is nothing new, this product may well be the best product simulator.

My question was. Why don't we just increase set point from 35F to 39F? Result will be the same.

[Segei]

seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works

May be you don't need defrost at all. Can you explain one thing. How does frost clear during off cycle? Sometimes(not always) it can happen for the cooler. How does it happen for the freezer?

[mad fridgie]

seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works

Sorry Seigi, hope i am not stepping on your feet here!
I would expect that defrost is better with an ecocube, then with a standard close control thermsost, all this shows is that you had the incorrect defrost/temp control method. By simply increasing you hysteresis and set point, and/or increasing your anti cycle/run on cycle timesr, the exact same result applies. Ok by doing this you have lost a small amount of close control on air temp, but that equally applies to the ecocube.
The increased product temp, is directly related to the results shown on the ecocube website, which relates back directly to the energy savings.
The ecocube for most products should not alter the steady state core temps, it could cause problem with medium to long term storage of things like lettuce (which have little thermal mass "thin bits"), the larger temp swings will speed up natural dehumidification (the leaves become droopy and less crisp)

[mad fridgie]

My question was. Why don't we just increase set point from 35F to 39F? Result will be the same.

100% agreed.

[mad fridgie]

seigi
The only thing the cube is doing is mimicing the product temp, by looking at product temp your temp control is not responding to air changes when doors open and close. Instead of the unit cycling on and off rapidly as it normally does you end up with a slightly longer run cycle and slightly longer off cycle,you will build up a slight amount of dew frost onthe fins during the run cycle and the coil will clear the frost during off cycle.Works the same in a cooler or freezer. I have set the evap fans to continus run on the dock and 28* room to extend defrost time out to 168hrs. I am not sure what some were saying about incresed product temp with the cube, we are finding consistant product temps in all rooms. We are recording them seperate with a 3rd party calibrated recorder made by sensitech. I have been in the refrigeration industry 35 years and have found most devices are a joke. This little sucker actually works

I see some flaws here. You now have the fans running all the time (so i must presume, that they cycled off with the old stat), so this fact alone aids in defrosting, plus you are using power for the fans and you need to remove the energy produced by the fans. (there are arguments about fans on or off, but that is a different subject)
You quote savings made by reducing defrost, I am struggling here a bit as well.
You are using hot gas, so no cost for defrosting directly. (unlike an element which does) However there could be a slight saving made, Ok after defrost there is a need to remove the energy from the coil block and a % of the mass entrapped liquid. This is easily calculated.

[Segei]

I see some flaws here. You now have the fans running all the time (so i must presume, that they cycled off with the old stat), so this fact alone aids in defrosting, plus you are using power for the fans and you need to remove the energy produced by the fans. (there are arguments about fans on or off, but that is a different subject)
You quote savings made by reducing defrost, I am struggling here a bit as well.
You are using hot gas, so no cost for defrosting directly. (unlike an element which does) However there could be a slight saving made, Ok after defrost there is a need to remove the energy from the coil block and a % of the mass entrapped liquid. This is easily calculated.

Definitely, that hot gas supply is free. However, efficiency of hot gas defrosting is very low. Typically, 10-20% of hot gas energy goes to melt the ice, the rest is parasitic refrigeration load.
Actually, I think that endocube is really "magic" device.
1. It save 20-40% energy, but nobody can explain how.
2. It reduce rate of frost formation and help to clear the frost from the freezer evaporators. Nobody knows how to explain this phenomenon.

[mad fridgie]

Definitely, that hot gas supply is free. However, efficiency of hot gas defrosting is very low. Typically, 10-20% of hot gas energy goes to melt the ice, the rest is parasitic refrigeration load.
Actually, I think that endocube is really "magic" device.
1. It save 20-40% energy, but nobody can explain how.
2. It reduce rate of frost formation and help to clear the frost from the freezer evaporators. Nobody knows how to explain this phenomenon.

Not going to argue with on the defrost, I not a NH3 specialist, know enough not to be BS
So do I gather you what to be the Canadian agent for ecocube? You just can beat a bit of magic!

[frigi]

Lol web detcetives , I am back been to busy working
I have only just started using the endocube, i also intially thought that it would not work, but it does the trick and it is making my customers happy, and i am making more money

[servicefiter562]

The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.

[servicefiter562]

The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers

[servicefiter562]

their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.

[mad fridgie]

The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.

Nice info, and something we can make sense of (as we have done with ecocube data).
Load is load, that is one thing that can be judged on the site, so presume all is equal. Why is there saving!
The defrost first, I think that the forced draft nature and the longer dwell times (off periods covers this) and yes the ecocube gives longer period between on and off (for high and medium temp) low temp, I am also struggling, the only expalanation is that if you a multiple evaps in each room that some moisture is passing from coil to coil (vapour pressure) , The large difference in cycle time will aid in defrost for high and medium temps, not alot of argument at this point
As far as the screw loading and unloading. I suggest that the previous method of room(s) control and the influence of the dead legs (off cycles), did cause considerable issues with control of the PID loop, I would suggest that your data indicates considerable over and undershooting of suction and the corresponding changes in discharge pressure. Yes with many room cycling rapidly, your load is going up and down like whores draws. The ecocube of course dampened the cycle rate, which allows your suction controller, to stabilize the system. What you have said makes sense. The ecocube has shown you that you did have failings in the old control method, Because our larger system are controlled by SCADA and PLC, most systems have run on/anti cycle timers in place, to cover this exact scenario, but not for the direct energy saving that you see but just for stability of a system. sort of a similar result coming from 2 different directions.
If you do not have the control options that that are common here, just a simple stat, then this well be a good option for your application. It would be nice to know, what the air temps are with the eco cube in place. This is really the data that is missing (before and after, in the same location as the ecocube) With large rooms fluctuations should not be as big as with little rooms, basic fundamentals, "thermal mass"

[mad fridgie]

The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers

Just change your dead band to 4 degrees, same thing really

[mad fridgie]

their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.

Great info?.

[Segei]

The reasons you all give are true and i agree load is load and that dosnt change. But, their is always a but isnt their. The only reason i can give you relates to cycle time for the coil. I have a 500hp high stage on a drive with another 500hp backing it up. 2-150hp boosters, lead on a drive. Prior to the cube H.Stage operated any where from 55% capacity to 100% capicty,motor speed 40htz until slide valve at 100% then ramps up,same with booster. Prior to cube booster operated 40% to 100%. Defrost profiles had been adjust for max run time based on conditions,plus main defrost line regulater set about 85 to 90# to over come line loss and lenght of run attempting to reduce excess load on high stage during defrost and prevent machine loading as much as possible. Once cubes installed H.stage runs at 40htz with slide valve between 15% and 45%,booster runs 40htz with slide valve between 5% and 25%.Defrost run times have been slowly extended out and coils monitered for signs of frost build up. Docks and 28* cooler started to build frost at 60hrs. Switched evap fans from cycle with temp to continus run and extended run time to 168hrs and can go further based on coils. Fan load considered minor compared with defrost savings and even with fan operational change still seeing 10% to 15% k.w. reduction from same time period last year and it has been 25% warmer this year. The system seems exceptionally balanced with out requiring a defrost . It appears to me by controlling room temps based on product temp and not air you maintain tighter control and do not have the normal number of cycles which allows the system to handle the load smoothly and not have big load swings. Also due to k.w.reduction looking into evap fan vfds to tighten it up a little more. I expect once ambient begins climbing as well as r.h. liquid run time will be reduced but even if it is 84hrs i think any one in a refrigerated warehouse would be satisfied.

Let me review operation of your plant regarding to energy efficiency.
1. Operating screw compressors below 50% is very inefficient. I don't know type of your compressors, but it is better to reduce speed of the compressor down to minimum 20-30Hz than use slide valve.
2. It isn't clear for me why you have swing of the load if you have evaporator fan VFDs. Probably, something wrong with the settings. To minimize swing, you should increase suction pressure. It is better for the efficiency especially for the plants with evaporator fan VFDs.
3. Running evap. fans nonstop it is bad idea. First they use energy. Second they release this energy in the cold room as parasitic refrigeration load. To remove this load, additional energy is required.
3. Probably, you over defrosted evaporators before. Right now you cut defrosting, but it is nothing to do with endocube. By the way maximum run time shouldn't be greater than 48 Hrs. Minimal positive effect to run it longer, sometimes even negative effect. If you have a doubt, I can show the numbers.

[Segei]

their is a energy penilty with hot gas ,its hp. Once you raise the pressure in a coil to defrost it you have to load the compressor to maintain your house h.stage suction until that load is removed. As i said earlier the calculation to figure the defrost cost is, coil tonnage divided by.5kwh X k.w. rate = cost per defrost per coil.

I don't understand this statement. You put hot gas in the coil. Why to load compressor? High stage or low stage compressor? Until load removed. What is this load? Why it should be removed? Where did you get this formula? Can you give us one example?

[servicefiter562]

Gentlemen im going to call it a night. Ive got a date with a fes shaftseal in the moning. Nice sharing thoughts with you

[mechanicalman]

Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration

[mad fridgie]

Well it was nice to see someone else has seem similar results and wanted to get stuck in with their more in depth explanation. Sometimes you wonder if you should keep your mouth shut and not type your thoughts on these threads. BUT I DID, and lets be honest the banter has been quite good fun to see everyone point of view. Servicefiter562 I would like to here more on what results you have had. We are mainly working on commercial Walk-ins and not larger plant. from what you have shared I have now got more information myself for some of the larger facilities we do work for. if this is actually doing what we are seeing and you are currently seeing, this could be a massive breakthrough in both the energy saving and food safety sectors for refrigeration

What!
It is a piece of plastic covering a temperature sensor!

[mad fridgie]

I find putting the probe in this works better

[mikeref]

So i'm going to throw a steak in the fry pan soon. Would it be economical to let the electric fry pan regulate it's own off cycles on pan temperature, or re-route the pans probe to read the meat's core temperature?
Two things come to mind. The outside of the steak will be charcoal, and the innermost, probe regulated area will be fine. Thermal conductivity comes to mind, and so does Gordon Ramsay. Would he, or any of us accept paying for a steak in that condition?
Same goes for food preservation. When cooling is required to keep within bacterial growth parameters, refrigeration is needed now, not 20 minutes later in 33 degree C ambient. (Forced defrost times has to be tolerated to get the system working again, at peak efficiency. ( freezer systems, and selected coldrooms.)
My focus is on coldrooms and the delayed off cycles and extended run cycle with this probe insulating device.

[paulg88]

Unless they are using proxy servers, they appear to be on opposite side of the world, 1 in Florida and 1 in Australia....at least that's what the IP addresses say.

Both have location of USA or united states thou... I don't need any convincing because it's extremely obvious this is a farce, but I doubt either of them set up their account in USA 5 days ago and have moved to oz since...

[750 Valve]

What a load of crap! As mentioned by Mad Fridgie the load is the load, putting a probe in an "engineered" plastic casing does not change the characteristics that make up the load - product specific heats, density, infiltration, thermal losses through insulation, etc.

All that ends up happening is the thermal lag means an overshoot on both the warm side and the cold side and the room/case temp fluctuates massively. I don't give two hoots if it gets an off cycle defrost because the cycle is longer - on the flip side the sst is lower (meaning more energy consumption if its a single system), or the cycle is increased dramatically if it happens to have an EPR fitted to limit the SST.

You get nothing for nothing and this is a perfect example of pulling the wool over people's eyes using false logic and selective engineering.

The way this thread was started and the posts by the two clowns with a vested interest in the product stinks.

The only way this thing saves energy is because the types of customers using it (Sodexo, Nandos, McDonalds, etc) have such poorly commissioned systems that it can have an affect. They are better off finding an engineer/fridge mechanic that can actually commission a system properly and get the same energy savings results plus some longer equipment life spans from better operation and maintenance.

[mechanicalman]

I am pleased to see that from another engineer with years of experience has shed some light on what I said I was seeing. I was only putting my point across and some of you shot me down and other started to get some understanding. We are all in the same industry, and some of us don't like change, but fact is fact, and those who answer these threads and defend what I said in the first place I thank you for supporting my claim.

[servicefiter562]

Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

[mad fridgie]

Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

As stated by many we have used these devices before (not called ecocube), there is nothing new in the concept. Even though you did give better data, the data is still limited, and with what was given.
You or the ecocubes fans have given, no scientific or engineering basis for the improvement made.
I and other have given detailed descriptions of what happens, with the request for you all to prove our principle wrong or alternative to our principles.
As far as your set up goes, if the third party engineer excepted you sales without engineering proof, then I need not say any more.
I am no expert on US based NH3 systems, I know Segie has a lot of expertise in this field. So when he questions, I have no choice but to look. Convince him, then you are on track to convince others.
This was your thread
"The reason the coils dont biuld frost is the off time you get between cycles, the coil has time to boil out the liquid still in the coil when the solenoid closes.That liquid is boiling off and absorbing load which is helping maintain room temp and in the process you remove the frost when liquid is gone . Normal 2 degree deadband control on air temp never allows the coil to boil off , even in freezers"
You state during a normal control, that he coil is not draining, so if the coil is not draining, it still must be refrigerating, yet the thermostat cuts back in, Does this not show you a probe position problem. "Are you measuring "air off" "
Prove the principle using engineering and science.

[mikeref]

Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months. The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers. By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified. The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate. I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

O.K. we are obviously divided over the insulating of an air temperature sensor. Going back to basics,.. air temp sensors are positioned in the warmest, and closest positions to the evaporator. All things being equal, why does the cooling process resume? The sensor detects a rise in air temperature. Why this happens? Ingress of heat through insulation, product, door openings... everything that does not mimic ambient,( outside) temperatures. [ assuming outdoor temps are higher than what we require]
If we wanted to delay compressor restart, we would use a simple delay timer. Set it for 5 minutes, or 10, in the extreme. While the product loses temperature waiting for insulated sensor to signal compressor restart, nothing is going to shield the product from continual heat gain... What is going to restore stability? What savings can there be achieved when product needs to be chilled to the origional required temperature as now, compressor has to work longer to get to that specific set point.
Data logger set for continual monitoring, at two minute intervals before, and after the device is fitted with a condom, will be the evidence i need for a product safe environment.. Mike.

[750 Valve]

Well i guess you have tested the cube and have falsified all of the testing i done over the last 2 months.

A product simulator is just one person/company's attempt at monitoring the core temperature of a certain type of product - nothing special and they have been around in differing forms for years there, so yes I have tested this before.

The system being tested is part of one of the larger food distributers in north america. I guess i pulled the wool over their eyes as well as the in house refrigeration engineers and their contracted refrigeration energy engineers.

Quite possibly, I have dealt with quite a few energy engineers myself and they sell energy savings not food chain compliance. Most site engineers aren't exactly the sharpest tools in the shed now are they?

By the way all of your points dont hold up.The system was properly commissioned verified by 3rd party engieers. The system was operating at its most efficent prior to cube installation, again verified.

How can you be sure of this, were the limits of the plant pushed prior to installation of endocube? Was the room temp raised? Were larger differentials explored? I could go on but I think I'm talking to someone with a financial interst in a black box so I'm not going to waste my breath too much longer.

The system operates on a M&M microprocesser i guess the hard data is inaccurate.

Data can be manipulated to achieve desired results.

I guess my point is this,be careful about calling something a load of crap unless you have actually tested it. I have no idea what anyone else is doing with the device and dont really care. My data is solid. Have a nice day

It's a load of crap. It's laughable that 3 different users all pop up within days of each other spruking the virtues of this most wonderous black box that houses a probe. All of your posts, along with two other endocube fans, have all been in this thread. Got each other on speed dial? Or just like using proxy servers?