Endocube actually works. I wish I would have thought of it!!!!

[mechanicalman]

I would say I am angry, probably upset that the simple things in life are straight in front of you, but someone else thinks of it and you don't

We have just started installing the endocube based on information we found online www.endocubeinfo.com and then spoke to a few other people the company put me in contact with, and it seems this product could really take off.

my boss was concerned that we would lose business as the reduction in starts on the compressor and wear & tear they explain would damage our servicing side of the business, however the benefits have been good for us, as our clients seen to feel we have helped them. we actually have been given two new clients as references.

We like others were skeptics on another gadget making claims, but we have only had good experiences with this technology.

[mechanicalman]

After I posted my last thread this morning I found this online. which I thought I would share. http://www.sodexo.com/en/Images/5833...y_endocube.pdf this company have obviously done sum serious testing. The results are incredible.

[chemi-cool]

And what is the price of the little magic box?

[Sandro Baptista]

With or without the temperature sensor?
Is the sensor a Pt-100?

[mechanicalman]

We have seen a vast reduction in cycles by placing the sensor directly into the cube. also we have see that the equipment runs slightly colder, allowing us to adjust the thermostat as explained on the company website.

on the coolers the defrost cycles are pushed out, and we have seen a reduction in this area also. the main thing is the stability of the food. we are not getting any alarm now we are basing on food temps instead of air. clients seem to be happy, and that is the main thing.

[mechanicalman]

The air probe is placed directly into the endocube.

[mad fridgie]

How old is this, about 20years ago, it was known as a plastic chicken.
We did the same thing by (especially for alarms) by placing the temp sensor in a bottle of saline.

[NH3LVR]

What makes me think mechanicalman has an interest in Endocube?

[mechanicalman]

We do have an interest. we have recently started as a dealer representative. but we want to know more on rack systems and not just walk-ins do you know of any application in supermarkets? as the only information we have received is from Europe and not the U.S

[frigi]

The Endocube, does work we have been using it with out clients in supermarkets in both medium and low temperature solutions. With the Endcube we have been getting fantastic results both in reduction in compressor cycles and energy savings

[Magoo]

How old is this, about 20years ago, it was known as a plastic chicken.
We did the same thing by (especially for alarms) by placing the temp sensor in a bottle of saline.

Hi MF
we are from same generation, I recall slapping lump of that gap filler putty stuff on a stat bulb in a chiller in a kitchen of a cafe where the door was opened most of the time , and same around the thermometor bulb for a chef that gave me lots of greif

[mechanicalman]

The rubber chicken was introduced by Marks & Spencer in the UK if I am correct. the product was well ahead of it's time. the problem was it used to much shelf space. I think this product deserves it merits. we were really skeptical on the information we were given. but after doing our own testing on a walk-in freezer and a 12 x 8 cooler we did see good results on the cycling reduction, and KWH also. the amazing part was we were able to get down to one defrost in a 168 hours. madness.

[mad fridgie]

I am not going to knock the concept, because it has been round for years. But there are also known problems,
especially if there is a larger TD on the evap, you can get surface freezing, product de-humidification. many of the modern controllers, have anti cycle, over run and a number of fancy PID loops.
The power savings, well 30% it must of been a pigs ear to start with. It maybe possible to save a fraction.
Defrost, nothing to do with it, If the system is running longer, then the SST will drop with the air temp causing greater ice formation, if room is above 0C then the longer off time, will aid in defrosting.
In our large systems, we install a product probe in conjunction various air probes,
Best of luck with your venture.

[Grizzly]

Mechanicalman.

Are you trying to sell this idea to us or improve your sales pitch?

Either are not really what the site is about are they!

Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

If I was a betting man (well I am but do not tell her indoors), I would say we have a multiple personality on this thread. "Scary" wwoooooooooooooo

[Sandro Baptista]

With or without the temperature sensor?
Is the sensor a Pt-100?

Mechanicalman,
Does the cost already has the temperature sensor? If it has what kind of sensor is it?

[mechanicalman]

Grizzly, no I am not so sorry if it looks like I am pitching. it is just we have been through this so many times with people making claims to the latest gadget to work wonders. it is just as a skeptic and never really paying much attention to what people make claims too, we have actually seen something which we thought was just a box filled with a substance work. my boss was more upset that something so simple worked. I think it came across as you say like a pitch, but I suppose the fact we have seen it works was m ore of a wow factor as like you, we have seen so many so called wow factor technologies fall on their face when tested.

[Segei]

I think that we talked about this device before. However, name was ecube.
Any energy savings can be calculate or estimated. I always ask people to show the numbers. Numbers how they've got this savings. However, they always show how much they saved. How did they get 15-30% of energy savings? If you tell me that 2+2=5, I will not believe. It doesn't matter how many tests you have done. However, if you or somebody else show estimation of these energy savings, this can be topic for discussion.

[mechanicalman]

The company universal master products who manufacturers the ecube & endocube now only sell it under endocube in the U.S they were able to send me 30 different case studies, from independent companies who have done independent testing. I have tested myself and seen results which are positive. also the case studies they provided are all data graphs which I cannot dispute, as graphs don't lie.

[Grizzly]

Mechanicalman.
Thanks for your sincere explanation. You have won me over as to why you posted.
As to the "Product" Time will tell.
Statistics can be and often are manipulated.
As a sceptic also, I await the industry approval that must surely follow?
Surely someone else on your side of the pond feels the same?
Grizzly

[mechanicalman]

The inventor is in a place called Dorset. is that close to you? sorry my geography of England isn't too sharp. maybe you should get more of an explanation from them directly. I can only go by my own experience and what we have seen and what we have been shown. I just think it is something worth looking into more, as the industry is leaning towards food temps more than air here in the U.S

[frigi]

I am also working with the endoCube, and have had fantastic results with it .
My clients have all been very happy

[Segei]

First. I asked for the number not graphs. Number don't lie. On the graphs you can put whatever you want.
Second. Surprisingly, people do a few first posts only about one issue.

[monkey spanners]

So its like a blob you put the probe in?

ProbeBlob™

[mechanicalman]

Frigi thank you for backing me on this. All I was doing was making people aware of what we are seeing. I hope with the success you have had other may listen to you. we all work in the same industry and look for ways to improve. but whenever one of us makes a quote on something we seem to think works for us, other shoot it down. I am pleased you are using this method, and you support my claims. maybe those who need more information or proof should contact the people at Endocube. maybe then the time we take to offer suggestions to others will be not shot down in flames.

[Segei]

So no numbers.
I think that when people sell energy savings devices to the customers they should be able to explain(and proof by the numbers) how they work and how customers get energy savings. No explanation on this post, no explanation on manufacturer website.
I'm focused on energy savings for many years and I know that it isn't easy to save 5-10% energy. When people claim that "magic"device save 20-30-40% energy, this is snake oil.
Actually this device isn't so magic. Usually, compressor controlled by pressurestat or thermostat. If we increase differential of these devices they will do the same job as ecube or endocube. Where is energy savings?

[mad fridgie]

Now lets look at this using engineering principles, and see if the savings are even possible never mind practical.
If we take a cold room. We all know over the short time the load (cooling requirement) goes up and down. Over a longer period, the load averages itself out. So if a room, requires "x" amount over time, then reducing "x' would equate to to higher average room temp, increasing "x" would reduce the average room temp. This product in no way effects the amount of non system energy infiltration. No savings can be here. However, the product or I should the influence of the product may indicate that the cool room, has been running to cold, and keeping the internal of the product colder than need be. This relates to awareness of product core temps.
Any argument so far.

[monkey spanners]

I think the potential savings come from fewer starts so fewer inrush current peaks. But it makes you wonder why eliwell dixell etc don't just make a more blobby air probe for the same effect.

[mad fridgie]

I think the potential savings come from fewer starts so fewer inrush current peaks. But it makes you wonder why eliwell dixell etc don't just make a more blobby air probe for the same effect.

Correct, savings are made by reducing in rush, by how much?
Lets Look, if we pick a comp say 1Kw or in one hour of running it would use 1KwHr, In rush Kw would be 8Kw.
If we said that in rush lasted a full second, to save 1% in power you would need save 123 extra starts per day. (5 an hour). But the saving from starting in not really about the in rush, but about the period between when the comp starts and when refrigeration effect starts. Lets say a minute. Ok this is looking a bit better, to save 1% we would need to reduce the number of starts a day by 14.
These figures are are in favour of the device, (1 minute without refrigeration effect would trip most coldrooms of on LP)
Most controllers know have anti cycle timer, hysterisis control, and various offsets which in effect are doing a similar thing.

[mad fridgie]

Now lets look on the influence on the refrigeration cycle. This product in effect is the same as having a large differential on a thermostat. To have have long on and off periods, you will have larger swings in internal air temperature. So on make on rise of the stat, you will have a higher SST which will give a better COP, but as it runs we produce an over shoot on air temperature control (the air becomes somewhat colder), The SST drops and COP reduces. The energy mass balance must still remain. Without going into in depth dynamic production, I would say for ease, this 6 of one or half a dozen of the other. "Not change in benefit either way"
Is there any negatives?
"Yes"
This related to the coolrooms "product quality"
Large sustained temperature swings (which must happen) change the rooms internal water vapour pressure, these changes, in simple terms increases the rate a which a product dries out. Withering of vegies, fruits and salads. Crusting of meats, and freezing burning of frozen products. To what degree depends upon time in storage, the original design.
So based upon engineering it is possible to make a saving, in the range of a couple of %, benefits can be on life time due to reduced starts, but should be in conjuction with a anti cycle timer (because refrigeration is just more than a single thermostat control)
For long term storage, product quality will decrease.
Best suited to system that have high refrigeration capacity to volume ratio. (Blast chiller/freezer)
Or I am wrong! If so I look forward to the engineering proof.

[mad fridgie]

So its like a blob you put the probe in?

ProbeBlob™

How much for one of your monkey??? See you on dragon's den!

[mechanicalman]

The monkeys are being used by large Supermarket chains such every store owned by Morrison's in the UK Sodexo Global. just received HACCP certification in Australia. also NSF certified in the U.S for Refrigeration Control. major hotel chain such as Hilton International have it on the blue ribbon list. contact the company on the website www.Endocubeinfo.com this isn't our monkey. we just buy it and use it. maybe if you visit the website and read the information it would click and you would understand what you are arguing against.

[mad fridgie]

The monkeys are being used by large Supermarket chains such every store owned by Morrison's in the UK Sodexo Global. just received HACCP certification in Australia. also NSF certified in the U.S for Refrigeration Control. major hotel chain such as Hilton International have it on the blue ribbon list. contact the company on the website www.Endocubeinfo.com this isn't our monkey. we just buy it and use it. maybe if you visit the website and read the information it would click and you would understand what you are arguing against.

Firstly i am not arguing, I am engineering!
I have checked out the site.
I have no doubt that it is food safe, and can be used as part of a control system. I have no doubt that the plastic used better represent foods products than other plastics.
Neither have dissed the product, I did say the concept has been around for years.
I have clearly shown where and how energy is save, if i am incorrect, then please prove this to me at an engineering level.
Greater improvements may be made on a bad set up system, but there is no excuse for a badly set up system!
The strength of the product is in the strength of the marketing, not in the performance.
If I am wrong, I will accept this, but until engineering proof can be given to the claims, I reserve the right to be right.
PS Nothing wrong with a 2-5% saving,

[mechanicalman]

The product is mimicking a shelf fish, the density is made to measure at 10mm to 15mm below the surface. when you air temperature probe is placed into the endocube, the probe is encased by the food wax. this actually has been proven that equipment will then run 3 degrees Fahrenheit colder.

It is then you can turn the set point up again to the original position, and Lockhead Martin has calculated the product will save 6% per degree on a medium temp and 8% on low temp per degree.

Yes you do reduce the compressor on and off which reduces spiking, but also longer run time and longer off times. this also means that there is no build up on medium temp equipment, so there is no defrost cycles required on medium temp equipment as it seems to do a natural defrost.

I spoke to an engineer last week who said he has had NO build up on the coils whatsoever, and has taken a 10% reduction off the whole plant from using this product. so the refrigeration was actually compensating savings for the generators, heating, lighting etc. this engineer has 37 years behind him, and said he has never found a product what works, and said he cannot find one thing that makes him unsure of what he is physically seeing.

Try it and make you own assessment. No harm in trying, and then you may be able to right what you have seen instead of me trying to convince you.

Don't get me wrong, I was exactly like you on this until I got one in my hand and did my own trial.

[mad fridgie]

I have studied the results, in some depth as requested.
The biggest single saving is increasing the thermostat temperature, the product is actually warmer! This increased product temp may well be within guide lines.
Is some of the cases shown the actual run time has increased, and the drawn power is less. This again indicates influence of ambient temperature on refrigeration condensing pressures.
Results indicate that compressor optimization has been completed, "they fixed a problem"
I had used a ratio of 8-1 for my in rush calcs, they shown only in rush of 3 to 1, but lets you believe that this in rush lasts over a long period.
The tests are un-scientific as there is no reference to the required load profile and influence they may effect refrigeration performance.

[mad fridgie]

The product is mimicking a shelf fish, the density is made to measure at 10mm to 15mm below the surface. when you air temperature probe is placed into the endocube, the probe is encased by the food wax. this actually has been proven that equipment will then run 3 degrees Fahrenheit colder.
Agree
It is then you can turn the set point up again to the original position, and Lockhead Martin has calculated the product will save 6% per degree on a medium temp and 8% on low temp per degree.
Disagree, to a new set point position (higher normal internal product temp), agree basically with lockhead
Yes you do reduce the compressor on and off which reduces spiking, but also longer run time and longer off times. this also means that there is no build up on medium temp equipment, so there is no defrost cycles required on medium temp equipment as it seems to do a natural defrost.
Historically, off cycle defrost was standard, but the need for close control (perceived or real), had meant that some form of timed defrost is required (aux heat or natural)
I spoke to an engineer last week who said he has had NO build up on the coils whatsoever, and has taken a 10% reduction off the whole plant from using this product. so the refrigeration was actually compensating savings for the generators, heating, lighting etc. this engineer has 37 years behind him, and said he has never found a product what works, and said he cannot find one thing that makes him unsure of what he is physically seeing.

Try it and make you own assessment. No harm in trying, and then you may be able to right what you have seen instead of me trying to convince you.
I have used similar products and technequies, for various reasons, and do use the a direct product method in some circumstances (a special temp sensor placed inside a product)
Don't get me wrong, I was exactly like you on this until I got one in my hand and did my own trial.

Thank you, for trying to understanding your product.

In away this is a backward step, in the past system had a large diffs on the thermostat. The same results.
But the need for closes control and the resulting product quality became paramount.

The saving them self donot come directly from the product, but from the awareness that many refrigeration applications are running colder than need be.

Many moons ago, we had "the refrigeration industry" issues with environmental health (govt dept), they would turn up at restaurant or the like at the busiest time, place their thermometer in the air of the fridge. WOW just about all failed every time. We over time instructed them to place the thermometer in some product. WOW now they passed.

I hope that you can see the product itself does not doing anything (short cycling excluded), apart from bring true awareness. it is the knowing that you can turn up the temp and keep the product within regulations.

[mechanicalman]

Yes the company who manufacture Endocube also have a patent for Endotherm, a Glycol based thermometer which reads food temperature. this is used on in stall and after installs to see what the food is reading. this is what is used to make adjustments. look they gave me a list of engineers to talk to from reputable companies with many years behind them. they all have had positive results. we tried to dismiss the claims, but once we got one in our hands and did our own testing using a Fluke logger. we was pleasantly surprised. everything your saying we thought of the sames. but we were wrong.

[mad fridgie]

Yes the company who manufacture Endocube also have a patent for Endotherm, a Glycol based thermometer which reads food temperature. this is used on in stall and after installs to see what the food is reading. this is what is used to make adjustments. look they gave me a list of engineers to talk to from reputable companies with many years behind them. they all have had positive results. we tried to dismiss the claims, but once we got one in our hands and did our own testing using a Fluke logger. we was pleasantly surprised. everything your saying we thought of the sames. but we were wrong.

I do not think you have read what i have written, there is nothing wrong, I proved that energy savings could be made, i have not shown what sayings are made by increasing the product temperature, I left that to Lockheed.
I disagree with the testing methods (One of the things i do for a living). Testing relies upon repeatable conditions. Who is to say that the test results are "not selective" Non showed consecutive days. If this only takes 5 mins to fit, then results should be consecutive time scale.
The fundamental saving is made on elevating the product core temperature. This can clearly be seen on the Endocube web site.
One of the reasons, for it not taking off (20+years ago) is the damage done to fresh products. If storage is very short term then, not an issue.
I do not care what other engineers think (reputable or not), I do care what about what engineers know and can prove.
The product may seem to work for you, but please understand why! If i am wrong in any of my assumptions, then please post any counter claims, engineering based!
What did you test with your fluke meter?

[mikeref]

Bottom line is to maintain product temperature with minimal power consumption. Air sensor may cycle at +2 to +6 and average product temp will be +4 degrees C. So if the sensor is to mimic product temperature, than surely there will be longer run cycles as the air temp will go lower than 2 degrees C, therefore extended power consumption when it is not required.
On the off cycle, this same sensor is going to read a slow increase in temperature, while the room air temp is +10 degrees C or more. Thinking this is a dangerous situation as bacteria and growths will start to multiply on the outer surface of product. Surface and core temperatures aren't going to be the same.
I understand there will be less cycles but actual compressor run time would surely be similar to a conventionally operated coldroom. (Taking out volumetric efficiency at higher temperatures.).. Mike.

[Segei]

What will food manufacturer tell you about increased product temperature? Who will take responsibility if some body get poisoned?

[mad fridgie]

What will food manufacturer tell you about increased product temperature? Who will take responsibility if some body get poisoned?

I think this why they have got all these approvals, to cover their arse, in elevating the product storage temp.
Ecocube: " not our problem the food is deteriorated, we have approval, that elevating the product temp is safe"
I am sure you did not do all this when you fitted a VSD to your motors to save energy!

[Segei]

Food safety isn't simple issue. Let's leave to the professionals.
We can talk about refrigeration engineering including VSDs. However, when I look at ecocube or ecube I don't see any engineering idea that can be useful to save energy.

[mechanicalman]

I suggest those who believe will test and see results of maintaining food temperatures within accordance to the protocol P235 for food temperature monitoring with the NSF and those who don't lose nothing other than never knowing the facts.

[mad fridgie]

Food safety isn't simple issue. Let's leave to the professionals.
We can talk about refrigeration engineering including VSDs. However, when I look at ecocube or ecube I don't see any engineering idea that can be useful to save energy.

I think that as an industry we should understand about food safety, maybe not the detail but at least the principles, as for most in the industry, refrigeration is used to keep food in a safe condition.
As mechanicalman, clearly states that the ecocube meets at least the minimum standards required. And it is understandable why they have gone through the standards process.

[mad fridgie]

I suggest those who believe will test and see results of maintaining food temperatures within accordance to the protocol P235 for food temperature monitoring with the NSF and those who don't lose nothing other than never knowing the facts.

I am not sure what you mean by this comment.
If you mean that by lifting the core temp of any product in cold storage will save energy, "then I believe!"
If you mean there is maximum allowable temp a product can be stored and is classed as legally safe, "then I believe"
Do you believe that increased temperature swings, dries out products.
Do you believe that the lower the temp of most products, the greater the products usable life.

[Segei]

I think that we should follow to requirements from food manufacturer. If food spoiled and you didn't follow manufacture protocol you are guilty. Probably, protocol P235 is safe, but his is just recommendation. I didn't hear that food manufacturers measure core temperature of the stored product.
Why do you think that using endocube will lead to higher core temperature?

[mad fridgie]

I think that we should follow to requirements from food manufacturer. If food spoiled and you didn't follow manufacture protocol you are guilty. Probably, protocol P235 is safe, but his is just recommendation. I didn't hear that food manufacturers measure core temperature of the stored product.
Why do you think that using endocube will lead to higher core temperature?

If you look at the test results, on the ecocube web site, it shows that the core temp of the food increases, compared to that of the previous setting. The savings indicated by the ecocube are based around increasing the thermostat set point. Energy is Energy, this product does not change the energy dynamics of the system at a set condition. The savings come from reducing the need for cooling, basically raising the set point. The ecocube does not add more insulation to the room, nor does increase the natural refrigeration effect.
It may just be that we are over chilling our food, and the ecocube may well high light this problem.
In food production, core temp measurement and control is used very heavily (and even regulated in some sectors)
Your food, normally comes with a label, store below -18C for example. You Know that if the temp is below -18C your product core temp will be some where close.

[Grizzly]

Hi Mad fridgie.
Yours is a reasoned argument and the reason why as an engineer I questioned mechanical mans motives in the first place.
However as you have devoted some much time to put your point of view.

May I ask a question of you / make a valid point?
Does not product rotation within the store plus traffic movements within, make close control irrelevant?

Their argument is like any training school set-up. Total control can show results that are totally unpractical in the real world.
Which is where I believe you "Come in".

I have had Supermarket "specialists" telling me and various coldstore bosses that they require temp control of their product at + or - 1c.
You should of seen the womans face (and others) when I told her it's not possible.
Not without changing the existing control systems, as a standard stat has a 2c diff.
No-one before had ever argued.

Grizzly

[mad fridgie]

Hi Mad fridgie.
Yours is a reasoned argument and the reason why as an engineer I questioned mechanical mans motives in the first place.
However as you have devoted some much time to put your point of view.

May I ask a question of you / make a valid point?
Does not product rotation within the store plus traffic movements within, make close control irrelevant?

Their argument is like any training school set-up. Total control can show results that are totally unpractical in the real world.
Which is where I believe you "Come in".

I have had Supermarket "specialists" telling me and various coldstore bosses that they require temp control of their product at + or - 1c.
You should of seen the womans face (and others) when I told her it's not possible.
Not without changing the existing control systems, as a standard stat has a 2c diff.
No-one before had ever argued.

Grizzly

Close control, is a big word, so in away you could be correct, but take for instance a cafe chiller, stock rotation is slow, use is intermittent but heavy at times, close (closer control) does help keep the product better for longer. You may or may not know, when designing fresh product room we design with high humidity, so small td on the evap.
I will give you an "over the top example" what may happen with products using this device.
get a chicken out of the fridge, place into a hot oven for 5 mins. What temp will the surface be, what temp will it be 15mm into the flesh. Or make a bit a guess.
Also many supermarkets over chill to allow transport of the product home, especially ice creams, with high % overrun (lot of air, less cream)
i am not saying the ecocube is a bad product, just that what and how it does what is claimed need to be explained.
It is something many guys have done to resolve certain problems, reads "magoo's" thread.
the Blood banks always recorded both air temp and simulated product temps.

[mikeref]

G'day Grizzly. Air-conditioned supermarkets and fast turnover is one scenario. Corner stores, restaurants and the like, is another. Setting a conventional thermostat for 2,3,4 degrees differential on return air temperature will have minimal effect on overall product core temperature. My focus is on the smaller business guy that doesn't have the capitol to have his coldroom or freezer room access to an a/c environment.
May i say, most times here, the room door is opened to ambient temperature, and whether or not a curtain has been installed, a significant amount of warm air is introduced, as the cold air escapes.
For a small coldroom, air temp is quickly lost and the room contents are now absorbing heat. The insulated thermostat cannot see the rapid rise in air temperature, as i have said in one of the comments above,and the room temperature rises far too much.
The longer the thermostat is delayed from restarting the next refrigeration cycle, the quicker the product will deteriorate. Shorter shelf life results, then the unsuspecting owner may well have a case of salmonella,(food poisoning) on his hands.
I honestly think that air temperature control is a must, regardless of the core temp of products .
BTW, the rum in my fridge has to be at the right temperature in the afternoons or there will be hell to pay