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Thread: Aluminium or Copper?
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01-02-2012, 02:06 PM #1
Aluminium or Copper?
I’ve just been reading this article on aluminium replacing copper pipework over at RAC Magazine: http://www.racplus.com/issues/rising...624766.article
Does a cheaper material that performs better sound a little too good to be true? Anyone got any experience of working with aluminium rather than copper pipework?
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01-02-2012, 02:51 PM #2
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
I have seen these pipes before, they are fine as long as you don't need to braze them.
The aluminium out layer is holding the copper inside, very useful and value for money for small AC jobs.
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01-02-2012, 06:44 PM #3
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
well every fridge pipe with alloy on the outside i have ever dealt with rotts out. and should you wrap it in armaflex its 10 times worse you can have a perfectley good alloy pipe with one pinprick in it where the water sits and it rotts out, just ask disco 3 and jag owners.iarp tried it on serovers to help subcooling if you had a gas leak cut of thesuction pipe insulation and there it was a leak on a bend or where the join was. if it works it will be great, lighter cheaper easier to bend and meant to kink less also the other problem is have you ever seen alloy when on a fridge circuit it springs a leak and aint used for a bit the air just reacts and the inside of the pipes andblisters nice big driers then?
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06-02-2012, 04:37 PM #4
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
My company is one of the companies featured in this article - if anyone wants to learn more about the reasons to switching to aluminium pipe I would be happy to answer any questions
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06-02-2012, 07:19 PM #5
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
I smell a rat...
One new member raises the subject and another with a vested interest appears.
If this turns out like the last copper/ali thread ,it should be very interesting.
http://www.refrigeration-engineer.com/forums/showthread.php?33446-Aluminium-Pipe&highlight=copper+alimnium
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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06-02-2012, 07:56 PM #6
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
stufus- i havent seen any wholesalers who sells the stuff,also ive not seen any other contractors using it
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06-02-2012, 08:37 PM #7
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
I don't see how replacing copper pipe with an aluminimium one could save money, surely it would be cheaper to leave it as it is????
Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)
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06-02-2012, 08:40 PM #8
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Hello Stu, No rats to smell - read the article - it names me and my company - so I am being clear and yes I do have a vested interest, but all I want from the forum is to educate on the the option of using aluminium pipe
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06-02-2012, 08:55 PM #9
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06-02-2012, 09:00 PM #10
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Hello Stu - no rats to smell - if you read the article on the link above - you will see that I am named within
As this is a open forum I thought I could express my views and give anyone advice on the product
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06-02-2012, 09:01 PM #11
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
The product is available from a national wholesaler and several independants - the rest of the trade is testing
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06-02-2012, 09:01 PM #12
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
tony- the install eng who throws in splits keeping the left over copper as a token gesture isnt going to convert to lawton or equivelent-due to when the eng has his lil trip to the scrap yard he wants top dollar- for the greedy companies and the 1 man band it would be financially viable and can increase profits and sometimes win a job by undercutting the rest who quote on copper pipe.
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06-02-2012, 09:02 PM #13
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Aluminium pipe is about a thrid of the price of copper
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06-02-2012, 09:11 PM #14
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
There are other savings to be made - which compensate for your scrap - plus the scrap yards are now being vetted as copper theft is so much on the increase. For the installer - you save/make money because cost of aluminium, no need for oxy/acet (cost saving), no need for nitrogen purge (cost saving), lighter to use (save time on labour)
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06-02-2012, 09:14 PM #15
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
the next install i do i will give it a go-and report back my findings- it better be a 14mtr piperun-otherwise im gonna have to spray the scrap copper coloured
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06-02-2012, 09:21 PM #16
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Fair enough Tony ,Just checking.
Have not used any incarnation of this pipe and have no inclination to do so.
Have yet to hear any positive feed back about it on this side of the water.
Have heard of a few companies trying it out ,but that seems to be as far as they go.
Proof is in the pudding ,time will tell.
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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06-02-2012, 09:27 PM #17
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
The coils come in 50 mtr lengths, boxed, so that you can use what you need and put the rest in the box for next job.
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06-02-2012, 09:29 PM #18
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06-02-2012, 09:32 PM #19
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Stu, our aluminium pipe is not like anything that you have seen as yet, it has been developed for our industry, not a mix of copper/aluminium, it is 99.7% aluminium extruded pipe, with a specialist brazing rod developed for the purpose.
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06-02-2012, 09:33 PM #20
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Doesn't kink, you use all the same tools that you have already, but with less effort, bends easy, rasts, easy a joy to use
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06-02-2012, 09:35 PM #21
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
1 problem-for the 1 man band trying to make a good profit on a job-has to outlay for 50mtr of pipe-at 30% less than copper- so his first job he aint gonna earn a bean- only after 40 mtr of pipe is he gonna see a profit on material cost side-big companies no problems with initial outlay
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06-02-2012, 09:40 PM #22
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Doesn't kink, you use all the same tools that you have already, but with less effort, bends easy, rasts, easy a joy to use
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06-02-2012, 09:43 PM #23
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Does it need a thicker wall to cope with the pressure? or is it the same thickness as copper?
Are there any fittings avaiable, t's 90's reducers?
Can you join it to steel such as rotalock valves or copper and copper plate stubs as in driers or txvs?
Or is it aimed at the small split air con market?
As a self employed person at the moment i would rather make less money and use copper but i am open to new ideas and technologies.Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)
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06-02-2012, 09:43 PM #24
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
i bend pipe using me knee-normally upto 3/4- would i have to anneal it? how tight a radius can you get compared to copper- also ill have to check my skin isnt allergic to ali pipe
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06-02-2012, 09:44 PM #25
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
This thread is fast becoming an advert....not a discussion on the differences between copper and aluminium pipe.
Lets get back on track.....
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06-02-2012, 09:54 PM #26
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Funny how the OP is watching but not chirping up.
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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06-02-2012, 09:57 PM #27
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
how does this pipe compare to copper in the thermal expansion? ie on a 410 heatpump ur pipework is exposed to pipe temps from 1 to 40 deg- its all well having a high bursting pressure-but when its connected to a brass flare nut on a brass valve? -u dont want to return to pressure test a system with an occasional leak!!- i am willing to try it but i want to ensure reliability
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06-02-2012, 10:09 PM #28
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
tony can you give me some answers please
1/ what i have been quoted for the alloy pipe 50m i can but copper for same money
2/ when i armaflex alloy pipe and the moisture sits there is it going to rot and go pourous
3/ what is the reaction with salt air/ sea its salt water tested but so was the last tesy alloy condesor we fitted by the sea it lasted 13 months and went pourous
4/ the noise resinates more via alloy than copper so is the wall thicker on alloy to allow for this
i dont want any body to think i am anti alluminium but i have had previous issues on it ta charlie
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06-02-2012, 10:37 PM #29
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07-02-2012, 01:00 PM #30
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
I’ve not chipped in again as I don’t have anything much to add to the conversation Stu. I would like to see answers from Tony to the questions raised by both monkeys (install and spanner) as well as charlie patt. I remain unconvinced that something can be cheaper and better at the same time, but will continue watching with interest to see if those guys have spotted a flaw that isn’t mentioned in the article.
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07-02-2012, 07:15 PM #31
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
i no its not commercial but land rover have stopped makeing the pipes on there disco 3 until they have sorted the issues with alloy pipes going pourous when its sat in armaflex it pits and leaks the newest one i have done is a eleven plate not even twelve months old leaking on a elbow where the moisture sits and the pipe was on the inside of the vechicle to
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07-02-2012, 11:57 PM #32
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Frank, you may have scared Tony away. I would like to get answers to the questions/comments from the lads.
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08-02-2012, 09:48 AM #33
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Hello Mike,
Not scared away at all - just busy - we have a product here which has been three years in development and in which we have the confidence to give a 3 year warranty - I will answer all questions in due course, Thanks
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08-02-2012, 05:15 PM #34
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Ok - A bit of free time now to cover your questions;
Monkey Spanners - the pipe has a thicker wall to compensate for pressure O/D remains the same as standard acr pipe the pipe has been certified and pressure tested to 2400psi
We currently have in development straight lengths, and all fittings but as with the pipe we now have this will not come to market until fully tested and certified
At present our brazing rod will not join steel to copper
It works very well in the split market with some systems being able to be installed with no brazing at all
For Install Monkey
You can bend 3/4 easily Requires less strength to bend, Light weight & offers better flexibility than copper
Does not kink as easily compared to copper, Using the same set of bending tools as copper and not sure why you would have an allergic reaction to ali pipe unless of course you were installing it naked?
For Charlie Patt
1. Can't see why you have been quoted same as copper on ali pipe maybe it wasn't our product - generally as a comparison you need to take the cost of your 30m copper coil divide by 30 to get your metre price and then times this by 50 - then you get your comparison and savings
2. The pipe creates its own protective layer when exposed to atmosphere which actually gives it a lower corrosion rate than copper
3. Reaction salt/salt air our product is 99.7% ali, the reaction form sea is ususally due to the thickness of the pipe as stated our pipe is thicker therefore we forsee no problems here
4. The wall thickness of the pipe has been taken into account for what you describe as sound resonation
Hopefully this answers a few more of your questions - one other thing to take into account - copper is virtually no longer left in the earth to be mined so if we don't do something now - what will you use?
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08-02-2012, 06:47 PM #35
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08-02-2012, 07:00 PM #36
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
hrp quoted me the copper and cars the alloy hrp cheaper at the moment/ whats this protective layer you have is it something you are adding to the pipework you are makeing, and the salt issue aint the real issue its the fact when alloy sits in armaflex its reacts mainly wherever the moisture sits on bends on flats etc yes i am mainly talking about vechicles but i have had it on commercial stuff and yes the wall thickness is a lot thinner but i have had pipes go in less than 6 months on both commercial and vechicle when its sat in flex and it can be on the inside. this proective layer is my main question is it in the alloy all the way through, can it be scratched and removed when rolled out does it need applying on?, i no that copper is short i just thought we would go over to some form of plastic at some point if your that happy with it send down two reels i have 32 ac units going in at newquay next month lets try some on a small pipe run i will only need 10 metres and sea what it does 31 units are staying but we no we have to move 1 unit in dec 2012 so we can remove the pipework and sea what it does
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08-02-2012, 10:15 PM #37
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
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08-02-2012, 10:20 PM #38
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
As Frank said this is turning into an advertisement.
I fully appreciate Charlie's questions' which are all relevant to a new product .
And I would also be of the same mind as the OP.
Regardless of price, if ALI was as good as it's been made out to be surely it would have been rolled out for this type of application in abundance before now.
Best of luck in your venture Tony.
But I for one will stick to what I know and trust,by the time ALI is the industry norm(IF IT GOES THAT WAY) I'll be retired
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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09-02-2012, 09:55 AM #39
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Mike - thanks - you have been reading well
Stufus - the reason it hasn't been out before now is that we have developed a specialist brazing rod for ali pipe
again not an advert - education - at the moment I can only dream of retirement
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09-02-2012, 03:19 PM #40
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09-02-2012, 05:09 PM #41
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
We have all data sheets - same info can be found on our website - but if I load information on here it will be stated that I am advertising rather than educating - I am sure a moderator would indicate this?
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09-02-2012, 05:54 PM #42
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
I will make you an offer you can't resist:
Ask the owner of your company to organised an open day for RE members where you can demonstrate all the pros and cones of ali tubing in AC&R, let them feel the material, make solder connections, make salt bath tests, dine them with good lunch and beer, give everyone a folder with all the data they need to make a decision, a small key holder with the company emblem and phone number. I believe that 12 people will do.
Afterward, they will come back here and spread the massage. [or not]
What say you?
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09-02-2012, 06:02 PM #43
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Upload the info to rapidshare and post the link then those who are interested can check it out.
Cheers
StuTool's ? check ! Condom's ? check !
If you can't fix it , f*ck it !!!
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09-02-2012, 07:19 PM #44
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
tony would you mind answering my last questions please
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09-02-2012, 08:27 PM #45
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09-02-2012, 08:35 PM #46
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
braided hose is the way when copper runs out-and yes i do install naked- except for the tool pouch! haha
Hopefully this answers a few more of your questions - one other thing to take into account - copper is virtuallno longer left in the earth to be mined so if we don't do something now - what will you use?[/QUOTE]
also if theres food and beer then what about the free pen?Last edited by install monkey; 09-02-2012 at 08:37 PM. Reason: i want a pen!
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09-02-2012, 08:39 PM #47
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
A pen will be in the folder you will get there. How did you think you will write notes??
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09-02-2012, 09:11 PM #48
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13-02-2012, 12:21 PM #49
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
Hello,
The pipe carries a 3 year warranty against any manufactured defects - I would hope that this would cover your requirments
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13-02-2012, 12:22 PM #50
Re: Aluminium or Copper?
The Question of an RE Open Day - If someone could advise if they have an interest in this then we would consider - I don't need to ask the owner of the company as that is myself.
Things to consider - location, date time - all suggestions welcome