What's Changed?

[grommit]

A confession - I blagged my way in - I'm not in the refrigeration profession, I'm a retired engineering instructor, but the only way I reckon I'm going to get an answer to my questions is to ask the pro's.
For the past 16-odd years we've had a Frigidaire chest freezer in our garage In Winter the temperature in the garage often falls below 0C. The freezer has given faultless service over the years, but at the ripe old age of 16 I'm sure it must be due to give out soon and we're looking to replace it.
Looking at the specs for current models I see a term that's new to me - "climate class" (quick read up about climate class) - and every freezer I look at its climate class rating is SN, limiting its ambient temperature working range to between 10 and 35C, so not suitable for use in my garage. In the past the guy at my local electrical store has given us a lot of sound advice on electrical appliances so I asked him to clarify the situation. He said this restriction applies mainly to fridge-freezers and generally not to chest freezers or certain upright freezer models such as Blomberg and Beko, which can operate down to -15C ambient. But then when he looked at the spec for a Hotpoint chest freezer he had on display - there it was - climate class SN (quick back-pedal). The brochure for the Blomberg upright model he'd shown us said the same. So my questions:
1) What's changed since we bought our Frigidaire freezer 16 years ago? Do modern appliances use different/less robust refrigeration technology? The banning of of CFC refrigerants started in 1991 - four years before we bought our Frigidaire - so I can't see it being related to that. Or is this just a way for the manufacturers to wriggle out of genuine warranty claims, knowing full well that most people keep their chest freezer in the garage? And I wonder how many owners realize the operational limits of their fridge or freezer. I've never seen one for sale with a warning that it's not suitable for use in a garage.
2) If this really is an issue, can you recommend a brand/model that we can use in the garage?

[install monkey]

jsut buy the chest freezer u want and stick an oil filled radiator in with a stat to maintain 10deg near the freezer

[tonto33]

whirlpool make good chest freezers

[cold.man]

SN = (sub normal) which is 10 to 32 degC
N = (normal) which is 16 to 32degC
ST = (sub tropical) which is 18 to 38 degC
T = (tropical) which is 18 to 43 degC

you are totally right domestic fridges, fridge/freezers, and chest freezers are not built the way they used to be the same as anything else.

yes i agree if the freezer is operating in a low ambient this will affect the performance of the appliance.

Me personally i have never had any problems and other people i know haven't to be totally honest the issue here is ENERGY i would assume.

i am a supermarket refrigeration engineer so one of the domestic guys may be able to advise you better.

on the domestic freezers the condensor can be on the back which is cooled by the ambient air and you can have your condensor coil which is cooled by ambient temp but uses a fan to cool the condensor.
and you can have freezers where the condensor coil is intergrated into the insulation this may be the type you have which may work better in this enviroment.
but like i say i may be wrong lets see what one of the domestic guys say Grommit

[grommit]

Thanks cold.man.
I'm beginning to wonder if the minimum operating temperature restriction is down to keeping the flaky modern electronic controls nice and cozy. I'm also wondering whether to try and squeeze another ten years out of our Frigidaire. Having read a few other posts I get the impression that freezers are like jokes - the old ones are the best.

[taz24]

Thanks cold.man.
I'm beginning to wonder if the minimum operating temperature restriction is down to keeping the flaky modern electronic controls nice and cozy. I'm also wondering whether to try and squeeze another ten years out of our Frigidaire. Having read a few other posts I get the impression that freezers are like jokes - the old ones are the best.

The reason the new ones are different is because of the refrigerant they use.

The freezer you will have will have R12 inside it (possibly R134a) I the ambient temp
dropped too much in the garage the refrigerant will lose pressure in the discharge side.
This pressure is required to make the refrigerant flow around the system.

The refigerant that the new ones will be on work with a lower discharge pressure and the
low ambients lower that pressure to such an extent that the refrigerant will not flow correctly.

So pick freezer with R134a in and it might work better at the low ambients.

All the best

taz

.

[frank]

The reason the new ones are different is because of the refrigerant they use.

The freezer you will have will have R12 inside it (possibly R134a) I the ambient temp
dropped too much in the garage the refrigerant will lose pressure in the discharge side.
This pressure is required to make the refrigerant flow around the system.

The refigerant that the new ones will be on work with a lower discharge pressure and the
low ambients lower that pressure to such an extent that the refrigerant will not flow correctly.

So pick freezer with R134a in and it might work better at the low ambients.

All the best

taz

.

With all of the known problems regarding the oil waxing in R134a systems in the capillaries, should he really be considering R134a freezers?

[monkey spanners]

Keep the frigidaire while its still working!

[taz24]

With all of the known problems regarding the oil waxing in R134a systems in the capillaries, should he really be considering R134a freezers?

Ok then we will compromise......

Use R12........................

To the original poster, what is the refrigerant inside the old freezer?

Even though I said it would be on R12 or R134a there is a posibility it
is on 600a or another type of HC?

I don't know.........

taz

.

[grommit]

You're starting to lose me guys. Remember I'm just a Joe Public who wants to go into Comet and buy a domestic chest freezer, and my original question was could anyone recommend a brand/model that we can use in the garage? (i.e. one that isn't restricted to climate class SN and can operate below 10oC ambient.) I can imagine the look on their face If I started to ask about refrigerants.
Grommit (originator)

[Quality]

Ok do not buy anything that is made in Italy or China

[djbe]

You're starting to lose me guys. Remember I'm just a Joe Public who wants to go into Comet and buy a domestic chest freezer, and my original question was could anyone recommend a brand/model that we can use in the garage? (i.e. one that isn't restricted to climate class SN and can operate below 10oC ambient.) I can imagine the look on their face If I started to ask about refrigerants.
Grommit (originator)

Grommit, it is clear from your posts you are an engineer who understands mechanical processes and questions how, why and checks into the technicalities before buying an expensive item of equipment. I do this as well, from cars to washing machines, lawnmowers to kettles.

But in this instance I really wouldn't worry too much, we have 2 upright freezers in our outside utility, 1 a hotpoint frost free with electronic controls, the other a beko basic. Both were purchased as damaged stock, have withstood flooding ( due to a burst pipe), down to -14 degree ambients and apart from cracked drawer fronts still perform admirably after 5 yrs.

Just buy the best you can afford, preferably (in my opinion) frost free and don't worry about it.

[grommit]

Thanks, that's reassuring, and I think it's significant that for as long as this thread's been running, no-one has reported any problems they've had (or heard of) by operating a domestic freezer at low ambient temperatures. I just don't want to go and spend £400+ then find there are problems. It's not just the cost of the appliance itself but also the contents.
Is there anyone out there with such an experience and can maybe recommend models to avoid?