Uni Flair Free Cooling Chiller vs PowerPac Turbocor

[HRC]

Hi all I’m looking at investing in 3 x 102kw Uni Flair Ultra Low Noise chillers which has a COP of 2.86 (ERAF Scroll Compressor)

It can produce 63kw of free cooling when outside temperatures is 5deg
Our average yearly temperature is 14.5deg and at least 50% of the year in the evenings the temperatures are at least 10deg or less making a good support case for free cooling.

The other option is the PowerPac Turbocor although I don’t believe it has any free cooling options

The powePac configuration would be 2 x 300kw chillers (one in stand by operation for redundancy) which has a COP of 4.4

The powerPac on paper seems the better choice, although the Uni Flair chiller has free cooling which will decrease the amount of compression power needed when the temperature is within range hence decreasing operational costs over time if the temperature is correct.

We are looking for a water temperature of around 15 degrees, any help / advice would be great.

HRC

[Magoo]

Hello HRC.
the COP performance is the biggest consideration during normal daytime operaton, add to the turbocor system an ambient cooler to take advantage of nighttime free cooling and extra power savings, bypass the ambient cooler during daytime. Then you get the best of both options.

[NoNickName]

I would suggest a Turbocor free cooling for maximum saving.
Please contact UAP solution http://www.uapsolutions.com.au/ .

[chillerman2006]

Hi HRC

For Excellent German build quality & Swiss precision technology would advise 'Axima'

or good bang for your buck, Air Technology Australia pty Ltd ... market 'climaveneta' & 'Clivet'

All are available in Oz with turbocor & free cooling with part load cop's of 6+ & free cooling cop's of 12+

R's chillerman

[HRC]

WOW a COP of 6 or 12 !! That’s mind blowing makes the uni flair option we are looking at seem extremely poor.
Do Axima have an Australian distributor ?

I checked out the Air Technology Australia website and it seemed very basic / poor with no real information on Clivet systems I assume a phone call would be the best place to get more information.

To provide you some more back ground information our expended heat load will be 250kw at full capacity, hence the current thinking of getting 3 x 125kw units, the third unit would be for redundancy.

Do Axima or Clivet systems with a free cooling option come in small sized units ?

[chillerman2006]

HRC

Check/confirm all figures as different manufacturers claims differ, 6 will be best at part load & 10+ is free cooling only - no mechancal cooling

Speak to Adrian on this thread, he will know more than me http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...antum-chillers

R's chillerman

[NoNickName]

COP figures on turbocor are like fishes for fishermen.
Beware of paper. It takes everything you write on it.

[charlie]

Well 102 kW is definitively a too small capacity for a Turbocor compresso (the smallest unit with a single TT300 compressor is giving around 200 kW).

I would reccomend Climaveneta that is selling FC units for more than 20 years all over Europe and is offering a wide range of units with scroll and screw compressors (try to have a look to the web site www.climaveneta.com).

In addition to the standard FC system where is normally recommended to add glycol to the system in order to avoid FC coils freezing during winter time, Climaveneta is offering anothe option called "NG" (No Glycol) that is including a FC circuit separated from the plant with an intermediate heat exchanger and filled with a glycol solution that is granting protection against freezing down to -18°C ambient temperature.

Air Technology can offer for sure Climaveneta units but in order to have a more prompt reply probably better to contact the official Agent:

Martinelli Pty Ltd
PO Box 800 Baulkham Hills - Sydney
1755 SYDNEY
Australia

Tel. +61288470307
Fax +61280039879
sales@climaveneta.com.au

Check carefully the maximum operating ambient temperature of unit!

FC coils are having 2 or 3 additional rows compared with a standard chiller unit of the same size and this is reducing the heat exchange efficiency so normally the maximum operating ambient temperature of a FC unit is 2 - 3 °C lower of a chiller unit of the same capacity.

Regards.

[NoNickName]

Well 102 kW is definitively a too small capacity for a Turbocor compresso (the smallest unit with a single TT300 compressor is giving around 200 kW).

No, it's not. A Turbocor compressor can be run down by the inverter.

I would reccomend Climaveneta that is selling FC units for more than 20 years

I would not.

offering a wide range of units with scroll and screw compressors (try to have a look to the web site www.climaveneta.com).

Shameless advertising.

Climaveneta is offering anothe option called "NG" (No Glycol)

Like everybody else nowadays.

the maximum operating ambient temperature of a FC unit is 2 - 3 °C lower of a chiller unit of the same capacity.

I can't see why. Other brands are offering the same performance at the same ambient, even in FC configuration.

[chillerman2006]

No, it's not. A Turbocor compressor can be run down by the inverter.

I would not.

NoNickName

I normaly highly recommend Climaveneta as a medium priced chiller, they are normaly well designed from a serviceing point of view, everything is easily accessable and their rework of the carel controllers seems to be quite good, info is readily available ect ect

There are a number of Italian manufacturers in a similar price bracket

Who would you recommend out of the Italian brands & why ???

Regards Chillerman

[NoNickName]

Who would you recommend out of the Italian brands & why ???

I'm too involved in the market to answer such a question. I simply don't like the brand Climaveneta. It has been an extortionist for too many years, and have been selling under cost wherever and whenever wanted a competitor out of the door.
Everybody can choice its own marketing techniques, and Climaveneta is of course free to choose which one suits it best, but a lot of smaller companies have been forced out of business because of this.
Not just that, but also the sourcing: it has been ripping refcomp off until it could, and then turned to bitzer, while concentrating all carel resources. Carel after sales and r&d ignored and still are ignoring smaller and smallest companies.
Now it's DeLonghi group, which is outsourcing manufacturing and sourcing components in China. Beware.

[chillerman2006]

I'm too involved in the market to answer such a question. I simply don't like the brand Climaveneta. It has been an extortionist for too many years, and have been selling under cost wherever and whenever wanted a competitor out of the door.
Everybody can choice its own marketing techniques, and Climaveneta is of course free to choose which one suits it best, but a lot of smaller companies have been forced out of business because of this.
Not just that, but also the sourcing: it has been ripping refcomp off until it could, and then turned to bitzer, while concentrating all carel resources. Carel after sales and r&d ignored and still are ignoring smaller and smallest companies.
Now it's DeLonghi group, which is outsourcing manufacturing and sourcing components in China. Beware.

Hi NoNickName

Interesting response, your first line & a another thread together makes me wonder about 'Geo'
Thanks for the nod on manufacturing, York has rebadged splits from there - not good !

R's chillerman

[HRC]

Instead of purchasing 3 x 125kw units I would be happy to get 2 x 300kw units instead I assume this would be a preferred configuration for a turbocor setup, the second unit would be only for redundancy.
Our of interest what price are you guys paying for a typical free cooling turbocor 300kw chiller ?

Kindest Regards

[chillerman2006]

Instead of purchasing 3 x 125kw units I would be happy to get 2 x 300kw units instead I assume this would be a preferred configuration for a turbocor setup, the second unit would be only for redundancy.
Our of interest what price are you guys paying for a typical free cooling turbocor 300kw chiller ?

Kindest Regards

Hi HRC

I have no solid figures due to I commision & service do not purchase
But I would like to add its nice to see someone with their head screwed on & buying with redundancy in mind...You would not believe the amount of times a customer is having a go at me because they only purchased enough cooling capacity to cover their needs & when the inevitable breakdown comes, its me that gets it in the ear when I dont arrive in a 40 foot lorry carrying every spare under the sun


R's chillerman