Naming and Shaming

[Kev The Tool]

Why cant we name and shame companies who don't pay. I've just been had for nearly £5000. I am in the suing process but the wa**ker has set up another company and he is ordering loads of materials in his old company's name. I have phoned all the suppliers i know and told them, but i think we should have a section for naming and shaming these people so other companies can steer clear. There is no legal issue for him not to pay he hasn't paid a plumber off the same job either.

[chillerman2006]

Hi Kev

Sadly & Wrongly

You just can not mate, if you did & he found out he will have you in court for liable

& the tiniest bit of inaccuracy or he manages to twist the facts, he wins, you pay him

All I can suggest (dont know if it helps) is that you do a follow up disclosure to the courts

highlighting his new business & any evidence you can find that he is using old company to fund new

maybe wrong but I thought you are banned from trading for a period of time ( x years) when you

have already liquidated a company...check him out on www.snoop4directors.co.uk

good luck with your claim,

R's chillerman

[Kev The Tool]

thanks chillerman, he is still trading both companies so they officially are both active. I believe ( could be wrong ) if one company goes under the other can still trade. dont know how true this is. It just pi**es me off cos he's a subby like me and he is turning over his own kind if you get what i mean, cos it isnt hard enough as it is to make a living. he's from the daventry area so pm me for more details.
Kev

[chillerman2006]

Hi Kev

if one goes under....he can not trade the other

the only way round it...he would have to put the other company in someone else's name

& be listed as just an employee....but that comes under force accounting...keep on his trail mate

you should be able to shut him down at the minimum

R's chillerman

[Kev The Tool]

thanks for that mate, i'll keep you posted.
Kev

[desA]

There are some websites around specifically set up for name-&-shame purposes (US, if I remember correctly). Not sure if they are active in the UK, though.

[r.bartlett]

go to the company he subb'ed to and ask them if they can pay you direct..

[Kev The Tool]

Already tried that one mate, unfortunately he has already been paid. i'll just have to wait and see what happens and go through the process, i dont hold out much hope though, i've seen this pattern before. It just annoys me cos i work hard for f*ck all and the system doesnt help you like it should. but if i went and beat him up i'd get done.
Kev

[chillerman2006]

Hi Kev

I can imagine the way you feel mate, keep your cool, on a dark & rainy night, karma often appears

R's chillerman

[install monkey]

go round with the bat-he'll soon pay when u smash up his pad and ankles-not condoning violence but always an option

[monkey spanners]

Someone needs to set up a WikiLeaks only for bad debtors...

I have a few i'd add to the list...

[Kev The Tool]

oh the temptation, unfortunately i'm off to oz next year and they will revoke my visa if i get done for anything like that. if anyone knows any money extraction company's i might be in the market.
Kev

[chillerman2006]

WikiLeaks ...

Do I hear a new group being opened....they are only visible to members

[install monkey]

hire a 5 tonne bulldozer and plough his car,buisness,and even his misses!

[Kev The Tool]

I like your style monkey. lol

[mikeref]

Kev, this reminds me of a thread some time ago, about whether or not to give out your licence number. Same person holding your cash?

[Kev The Tool]

it is indeed mike. He managed to get another subby to give his details over, i gave refcom his details but nothing done so far.
Kev

[mikeref]

That just sucks Kev. I mean, he knows he's done wrong by you but doesn't give a s--t! I do have situations where people leave town or are in desperate need, but when i see them, they conveniently forget the time i saved their ass! Had one unhappy person today, called me to fix a coldroom,(help, going to loose stock, how soon can you get here? My answer was..NO! find someone else to work for nothing! I fixed her icemaker over a year ago but she never bothered to pay for it! ..All the excuses under the sun. I must have lost your invoice, Bla, Bla! Stiff Sh-t! What goes around, comes around!! Unfortunately, this does not help your situation and i hope you do recover at least some of your money.... eventually. Over here, you can black list non payers by supplying details to others in the industry. It is not law but it gives others the heads up so they can choose to take on the risk or not.. All the best.. mike.

it is indeed mike. He managed to get another subby to give his details over, i gave refcom his details but nothing done so far.
Kev

[MikeHolm]

In Canada there is a small claims court, no lawyer needed which gives you a judgement. If they still don't resolve the issue, they may have a hard time getting a mortgage or loan as it goes on the credit history. Don't know if you have that kind of thing in the UK. I'm up for letting people know, quietly, that anyone working for him may get stiffed.

On another note, does he know you are leaving for OZ next year? If so he is probably thinking he can wait it out.

[Kev The Tool]

no he doesn't know im off to oz. I am currently going through the small claims, however if he decides to close his company he walks away without penalty. just another reason to leave this country. this is not the first time i've been had, the last time i got judgement and i had appointed a court bailiff to remove goods and the day after he went for £ 660,000 he knew he was going and just milked it to the hilt. He now runs a successful construction company. it's in his daughters name. i am reluctant in my ongoing case to proceed with winding up because it will cost me over a grand and a very slim chance of me seeing my money.
Kev

[chillerman2006]

Over here, you can black list non payers by supplying details to others in the industry. .

Over here Mike that is illegal

there was a big thing about blacklisting in the construction industry recently, can not remember the exact details, but I do recall offices raided, computers taken & I think stiff penalties, I will have to do a search to find exact details...but I do know that it is frowned upon here by the powers that be, to attempt to stop someone working/earning regardless of their history, it is even illegal to give a bad reference to an employee !

R's chillerman

[frank]

it is even illegal to give a bad reference to an employee !

R's chillerman

I think that quote is a little untrue. You can give or not give a reference when asked as an employer, but any reference you do give must be a true statement. You cannot 'bend' the statement to suit your own needs.

Maybe Abe can enlighten us further.

[al]

Kev

You're not alone, it's happening wholesale here too.

An interesting idea that a few have tried here is using the money you'd spend on solicitors etc and hiring a mobile advertising hoarding with the customers details and the fact he hasn't paid you, just make sure you stick to facts, if he sues you for libel he will lose, it's been quite effective here!!

here's a guy going through the same as you: http://gregcfuzion.wordpress.com/201...ntrol-warrior/

alec

[chillerman2006]

I think that quote is a little untrue. You can give or not give a reference when asked as an employer, but any reference you do give must be a true statement. You cannot 'bend' the statement to suit your own needs.

Maybe Abe can enlighten us further.

Hi Frank

you may be right mate, I know that a standard referencing form was rubber stamped as ok
which has a 1-5 scale poor-excellent, on it is a number of things including, appearance, performance, punctuality and a few others & yes it does need to be accurate as a previous employer applied to the previous to them for a reference, which came back poor, poor, poor, which they ignored as it included poor appearance which they new was incorrect as I had been interviewed 3 times after work, still rarely well groomed after a days work...I recently recieved a copy & took it to a solicitor who says I have good grounds to sue
the reference was supplied by the owner who has never seen or spoken to me, he has recently sold his company to the company he was a dealer for, both very well known & as I still have time left to make a claim, I may still releave him of some of his fat wallet

R's chillerman

Ps: thanks for editing my post

[chillerman2006]

Argh ! Kev

just had a thought mate

If you supplied parts, equipment, gas ect....they belong to you Until you have recieved full payment...go back to site & remove them

If they refuse you access call the police...its your property & they can not prove otherwise

my brother & other builders I know use this approach, they have kangoed render off walls, stripped roofs bare when its raining...it normally gets them paid & additional payment to come & do the job again !!!

Just take your invoices with you mate

R's chillerman

[monkey spanners]

If it got to the point of no return, think i'd tell the end customer the equipment has had a product recall due to fires and that we will be out next week to swap it, and just forget to put the new stuff in....

If it was a pub or such and just for a few hunderd notes, i'd give friends credit notes for the debt so they can go for a meal for free, see how they like not getting paid for stuff!

If anyone wants a curry in Wantage or a few beers in Burford...

Jon

[MikeHolm]

Law is different here. Unless it is a leased piece of equipment, once it is installed in the building it is considered owned by the building owner, regardless of payment.

[chillerman2006]

If it got to the point of no return, think i'd tell the end customer the equipment has had a product recall due to fires and that we will be out next week to swap it, and just forget to put the new stuff in....
Jon

I like it, shrewd thinking Jon

[chillerman2006]

Law is different here. Unless it is a leased piece of equipment, once it is installed in the building it is considered owned by the building owner, regardless of payment.

Evening Mike

How do you get round it over there then mate ?

Is there a way ?

R's chillerman

[al]

Same here C, once installed it becomes part of building fabric, you need landlord or owners permission to remove, you could also be accused of leaving a dangerous installation behind you

Peter_1 had a brilliant idea on an old thread, putting in logic bombs which create worse and worse and problems if engineer doesn't attend!!

alec

[chillerman2006]

Mike & Alec

thinking of what you gents are saying....If you check your invoices from your supplyer, does it say that until full payment is recieved then they are still the owner of the equipment

I am not saying knock your supplier but I presume you dont pay as you go (have credit account) and if so maybe your supplyer can then help by stating it is legally their property & you will not pay as you have not been paid & they want their equipment back...just an idea

Also would it stand if you add this clause to all your own invoice/quotes maybe its still owned by the building if signed by the company you contract off....but a sneaky move...t&c's on back of doc and make site owner sign the front giving you written permision to work on site...can just say its comany policy to validate you are allowed to carry out the work...

What do you think Gents, I know it sadly does not help 'Kev' but could this be the solution for the future....you could even explain to site owner after you have signature that he forgot to read the back
And then surely they would make sure your paid !

R's chillerman

[mikeref]

Kev

You're not alone, it's happening wholesale here too.

An interesting idea that a few have tried here is using the money you'd spend on solicitors etc and hiring a mobile advertising hoarding with the customers details and the fact he hasn't paid you, just make sure you stick to facts, if he sues you for libel he will lose, it's been quite effective here!!

here's a guy going through the same as you: http://gregcfuzion.wordpress.com/201...ntrol-warrior/

alec

That was good reading al. I've had them, up to here ( Notice where hand is). They think we forgive and forget, then have the nerve to ask for other work to be done. Not a happy camper..Mike.

[al]

Mike

Yep, i've become so flipping wise in the last 2 years, it's unreal! But i've also become a bit more relaxed...;0

I have that printed on my service sheets, doesn't matter a w##k, you can't enter a premises under false pretences etc, i have helped a few fellow fridgies liberate what was theirs, one memorable one i wasn't involved in had 2 40foot trucks and some friendly muscle!!

If you get a court order allowing repossession then you're on the pigs back, you can make all reasonable efforts to recover and this is the best bet for Kev, don't bother with winding up, get judge to allow recovery of debt, then round up a few mates and a copper and off you go.

or start a blog like the one i linked to.

alec

[AUScooler:-)]

He now runs a successful construction company. it's in his daughters name.
Kev

Unfortunately this scum bag is declaring bankrupt, he has most likely sold all his old company assets for cash and has a stash buried somewhere, good luck finding it, the courts cannot sieze assets if there are none left. He will betray himself as the poor hard done by guy, to the magistrate and most likely pull it off.

You say he is now running a company in his daughters name, man do I feel sorry for her. Anything goes wrong she is the proprietor and she will be legally responsible for anything and everything from unpaid wages to bank mortgages. He has more than likely told her a load of bull****, like oh all these guys, Kev and the plumber is after me, unfortunately for her she is more than likely a nice girl who cares for her father and has taken the bait. You claim the new daughters company is going well, how do you know this? what he is more than likely doing is getting his daughter to take out loans in her name. Telling her oh my back, I need a better work vehicle or the company would make so much more money if we had a better newer excavator. He would be living the high life like a king no stress and no responsabilities. The more loans she gets in her name the more power and control he has over her. Most scum bags do it to their girlfriends or wives, this is very unusual to do it to his own daughter. This guy must be the lowest form of scum there is.

What I would do first, is approach his daughter very respectfully and politely tell her you are very concerned for her, may bee even write her a letter. She should know what is going on. Perhaps she will shut the business down before it gets to a point of no return for her.

[Kev The Tool]

Hi auscooler, this guy you are reffering to was another guy who done me 6 years ago, i was just using the example to highlight i'd been through the legal process before and it didn't work. sorry if it was a little misleading.
chillerman, my invoices state all items supplied remain in the ownership of my company until paid for in full. unfortunately i was labour only on all 4 jobs, however i did speak to a solicitor and that statement absolutley does not allow you to enter premises and remove "your" goods, once installed it becomes the building owners property. From my experience the system is sh*t as i'm sure loads of you guys know. I might just knock it on the head and get a job.
Kev

[mikeref]

Kev, as long as you re-member this event, regardless of the outcome, i wish you well and hope you can recover sufficiently to look on life in a positive way. I hope your venture to " down under" will be worth the wait and they, (Aussies), will treat you well. If not, and you happen to grow roots in North Queensland, than contact me and i'll see what i can do for you.. Mike.

[Kev The Tool]

thanks very much Mike, it is a shame we have to keep chalking these down to experience. thanks to all for your help, i will keep you posted as it unfolds.
Kev

[chillerman2006]

I might just knock it on the head and get a job.
Kev

Sorry to here none of your responses can help solve your current issue, Hope it goes well in Oz for you mate

And your comment above seems to be a growing attitude because of to***rs like you are currently chasing....It's just so much easier to stick your hand out for your wage at the end of the month...am also looking to go full time employed...do me bit, go home & forget

R's chillerman

[MikeHolm]

Evening Mike

How do you get round it over there then mate ?

Is there a way ?

R's chillerman

It really hard to get your money here and even if you get a judgement from the court, you still have to get the guy to pay and if he doesn't pay you have to go back to the court to get a court order to take the material or get payment. Pain in the ass. Otherwise you get Guido or the mafia or bikers to do your work for you.

[paul_h]

Bikers would be the best bet.
I paid a debt collection agency $100 pm and the best they could get after hounding non paying people was about 50%, and to rub it in, the debt collectors would take a cut of that.
Now I just avoid restaurants and land lords etc unless it's COD. Most owner/occupiers are OK, it's just when a third party is involved; they want me there, but it's not their job to pay, is when I get some trouble.

[Kev The Tool]

paulh, i am the same as you with regards to restaurants and shady people etc. this guy is one of us a fellow subby on the tools who needed a hand with a big job he was doing, thats what has pis*ed me off so much, big companys go under that is just something we have to deal with but when its someone who is the same boat as you its just f**kin wrong what ever way you look at it. The only good thing to come out of all this is this guy was supposed to start a nice little job down south but due to ill health ( nothing serious i hope ) he cant do it. The company rang me and asked if i wanted to do it. so every cloud and all that.
Kev

[paul_h]

I hear you, and what happened to you is just wrong.
But to me it falls under 3rd parties like I said before, ie COD, and if they can't pay it, don't do the work.
Not saying you did anything wrong, just saying if you are moving down here, rules stay the same and you'll get burnt the same way, as I have. Restaurants, lands lords, tenants, 3rd parties (ie other companies, tradies/subbies etc, or anyone not owner/occupiers), watch out.

edit: I'm not meaning to be a wet blanket, everything starts of somewhere and I have done jobs under $200 for r/e agents, landlords etc. Most worked out well and I've done a lot of$2k-10k jobs for them later after I have found them good payers.
But also I've been sucked into some places with $4k owing and it taking forever...

[Kev The Tool]

Hi Paul,
I will have to give you a ring when i come over, i will be landing in perth 30th march 2012. I will have to meet up and pick your brains.
Kev

[install monkey]

kev-make sure u tick the right boxes on and dont take seeds over or dried food-ive seen em on border patrol on the tv!

Hi Paul,
I will have to give you a ring when i come over, i will be landing in perth 30th march 2012. I will have to meet up and pick your brains.
Kev

[MikeHolm]

After being stiffed a few times, I only do the work if I get at least 35% up front. If not, I walk away. Also, I make sure there are 3 draws, the second covers it to about 80-85% and the system can easily be shut down in a way that will cost them if they don't pay the other 15-20%. I have lost a bit over the years but only a small percentage of the job.

I knew a bricklayer who, when doing chimneys, which was most of his work, would put a piece of clear glass in the flue. The owner could look if he wanted to and all looked normal but if he didn't get paid he just left the glass there and if he got paid he could break the glass.

[mikeref]

Hi Paul,
I will have to give you a ring when i come over, i will be landing in perth 30th march 2012. I will have to meet up and pick your brains.
Kev

Oh, going to Perth are we? Still better than ending up at Christmas island. free detention centre there. Never been to Perth but i,ve heard the roads are smooth as silk, better than the pothole infested excuse for goat tracks over here.

[chillerman2006]

After being stiffed a few times, I only do the work if I get at least 35% up front. If not, I walk away. Also, I make sure there are 3 draws, the second covers it to about 80-85% and the system can easily be shut down in a way that will cost them if they don't pay the other 15-20%. I have lost a bit over the years but only a small percentage of the job.

I knew a bricklayer who, when doing chimneys, which was most of his work, would put a piece of clear glass in the flue. The owner could look if he wanted to and all looked normal but if he didn't get paid he just left the glass there and if he got paid he could break the glass.

Shrewd Mr Mike

the only way it seems to succeed is being shrewd & having a back up plan from the off... along with your staged payment system... your not green are you mate

R's chillerman

[AUScooler:-)]

Hi auscooler, this guy you are reffering to was another guy who done me 6 years ago, i was just using the example to highlight i'd been through the legal process before and it didn't work. sorry if it was a little misleading.

Kev

My mistake I thought he was using his daughter to avoid paying you.

In my opinion he is conspiring two of his own companies, to work together to make a financial gain at you’re loss. In my opinion that would be illegal but im no expert in law. Perhaps he can get away with it. or perhaps he has put his new company in the firing line.

If he is still running his old company (A) and using the revenuse to purchase materials for the new company (B) then he is putting revenue from company (A) into company (B). This revenue should be paid to you. But he is not paying you because he is claiming company (A) is running at a loss close to bankrupt this is false. He is a slipery **** but his plan he is using to avoid paying you may backfire on him.

[paul_h]

kev-make sure u tick the right boxes on and dont take seeds over or dried food-ive seen em on border patrol on the tv!

Seeds are fine, any type. Trick is to send them inside a birthday card or any cardboard!
I got ridiculously potent chilli seeds to grow from the USA that way, and many *other people* get all sorts of seeds that way too.
KTT best of luck, if I'm still around I'd be glad to meet you, I'm hoping to move to the mt barker region down south soon. Real estate in Perth too expensive, I'm hoping to bail out with 160K in my pocket pay cash for a house in cranbrook or something like that, build a massive barn size shed on a 1/4+ acre block. Build project cars for fun, grow chillies and sell seeds/sauce as a side business, brew and distill my own, and do the odd refrig-a/c job in Albany or local wineries a few days a week as a part time thing to fund my semi retired, rent and mortgage free existence.
This has been a long term plan of mine, the reason why I've learnt the ropes being self employed and putting up with bad payers after all. I could have earnt almost double being on wages, but then I'd be a city boy forever. The rat race is not for me, only project cars and making/ growing stuff makes me content.

[MikeHolm]

Shrewd Mr Mike

the only way it seems to succeed is being shrewd & having a back up plan from the off... along with your staged payment system... your not green are you mate

R's chillerman

I've been designing, pricing, installing and collecting for every job for the last 30 years so I don't think I'm that green. None of it means there isn't more to learn in any way or that I won't get f**ked in the future but you live and learn, I guess.