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  1. #101
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!



    Quote Originally Posted by Segei View Post
    I'm not an expert in venturi effect, but I have 2 concerns about this widget.
    1. To create venturi, we need significant pressure difference between pressure in this vessel and suction pressure. This pressure difference will not be significant.
    2. In verturi, main flow will suck secondary flow. As far as I know, main flow should be significantly greater than secondary flow. For example 10:1. Assume that flash gas is 20% of total gas flow. 80% of gas create by net refrigeration effect. It means that that 1 part of main flow will suck 4 parts of secondary flow. This will not happen.
    It is unlikely to be a venturi (as you know it) I have left this part open to what it actually is, Basically it is a Thermal Vapour Compresssor (TVR) or some form Condell effect mover. (these devices use less mass flow for the motive force as the driver).

    Your are not really sucking, as this applies a stastic flow, as we know we have flow through the suction.

    The first question has to be does it have the potential to work, and how to we prove what the results would be in a perfect world.
    Secondly if the question is yes then what piece of equipment is required to achieve the results.

    I have formulated my own calculations, and have built a test rigg(s) to test. Thats does not mean my method is correct, nor the parts chosen for the test rigg are even close to what is required.



  2. #102
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    By definition, the secondary flow is going to be a fraction of primary flow... the difference will come from flashing in the separator. The question is not will it work, but rather how well will it work?
    In this industry they do not use the terms primary and secondary, for that reason, "motive and suction" flow

    How do we prove if it works? Then How can we make work?

  3. #103
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Morning MF

    does it make a difference with suction flow, where the flash gas ends up ?

    (Suction line or direct into compressor)
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  4. #104
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    CCF23082011_00000.jpg

    A very basic drawing of the widget configuration

  5. #105
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post

    A very basic drawing of the widget configuration
    Hello Mate,

    Just spun it round

    R's chillerman
    Attached Files Attached Files
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  6. #106
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    How do we prove if it works? Then How can we make work?
    MF

    I think you have with your drawing & the posts (unless I am missing something)

    Your controlling condensor pressure

    Your removing flash gas, improving mass to txv, improving evap efficiency

    Your increasing suction pressure

    Overall refrigeration efficiency has to go up ??? Surely

    Now I can see it - I can not see any pitfalls (anyone agree ????)

    R's chillerman
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  7. #107
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    It is some what more complicated in the theory, how ever I do not want show how may calculations have been achieved. I do not need some to check that i can add my apples calculation, when in fact what i should calculatting is bananas, in other words my method of determining efficiency/performance may well be flawed, and I do not want to influence, others thought patterns on what the result maybe.
    The practical objective is to reduce the compressor displacment, increase COP.

  8. #108
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    The pic is just a snapshot in time at a steady condition!
    Practically and what is required to prove performance is a the system moving to reach a steady state.
    The compressor inlet pressure will only increase when the process is underway, so to start with it will run similar to a normal system, as we start to recompressor, the compressor mass flow will increase, which inturn makes more flash gas in the vessel, which gives greater levels of recompression and so on until equalbrium is reached.

  9. #109
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    I do not want to influence, others thought patterns on what the result maybe.
    The practical objective is to reduce the compressor displacment, increase COP.
    <I'll keep making assumptions then, for others to say right/wrong & explain why>

    Viewers

    the increase in mass(?%) to the evap with reduced flow (69%)

    Does this side work - balance out - increase evap ref. effect ?
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  10. #110
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol


    just hit me looks a little like an nrc enviro pack design low pressure reciever that was higer than case tev so gravity fed valve
    Last edited by simon@parker; 22-08-2011 at 11:17 PM.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    The drawing show the liquid/vapor seperation in the vessel.
    100% in liquid (35C sat)
    Reduce pressure (0C sat)
    Liquid leaving 69% (0Csat)
    Vapour leaving 31% (0C sat)
    This would remain a constant as long as the incoming liquid remained constant.
    How ever the actual total mass flow SHOULD increase over time (as the process fires up).
    PS figures care of old faithful Coolpack!

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by simon@parker View Post
    ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol
    He has working rigg(s) (you may have missed a page in the night Mate, getting ones, un-needed beauty sleep - dont wanna sound like I got a naggs head on to go with me horses)
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 22-08-2011 at 11:48 PM. Reason: too short/sharp - sorry bud
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by simon@parker View Post
    ok am no genius am just a fix it tech perhaps you need to look at yr problem from different angle instead of fitting it to existing system as a drop in part to inrease efficency design a whole system around yr widget and then when you have it working 100percent go back and adjust yr design for drop in fitting basically taking an idea and making it better is that to easy ? or do i need a good kick and to shut up ? lol
    Certainly no good kick required, it is opinion that we are after, right or wrong does not matter, I would hope that most on here are not here to belittle those who are making an effort. and what you are saying does make sense.
    The fact is that you would need to design or redesign the system when fitting the widget, more to do with how the TEV is sized and how the evap coil is confirgured (but that well down the path of proving it works or not)
    I do not want to be BS artist, so we have to compare the performance of a system with a widget and without.
    The problem is i can not get it working, with any form of repeatability (sometimes very good, sometimes very very bad)
    And i am unable (due to lack of funds) to find the right information to solve the issue.

    cheers for your input

    Mad

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 ..Mike.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    but the rigs he has are conventional systems ? with widget added ? am talking about complet system design to give him flow required at optimum velocitys from my limited perspective if the condensor is over sized slightly with a flow regulator after it and the reciever is used as a surge vessel to back liquid up instead of a conventional reciever which flow passes through liquid will be constant vapour will be constant condenser will act as a semi reciever the rest is standard ish

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    He has working rigg(s)
    Or not so well working riggs! lol

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    maybe u need an aussie tech to advise/fine tune ur system,afterall they are the guru's of keeping beer cool and transporting beer-quote ref beer cooler buggy and australias first fridge
    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Or not so well working riggs! lol

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by simon@parker View Post
    but the rigs he has are conventional systems ? with widget added ? am talking about complet system design to give him flow required at optimum velocitys from my limited perspective if the condensor is over sized slightly with a flow regulator after it and the reciever is used as a surge vessel to back liquid up instead of a conventional reciever which flow passes through liquid will be constant vapour will be constant condenser will act as a semi reciever the rest is standard ish
    Long story short!
    First rigg, just modified an existing rigg nothing to special, to see if there was potential, had possible results.
    (also some flawed testing) because part of the design is to consider what happens if there is a failure with the widget (cause and effect)
    Built purpose rigg, with 100% isolation and by-pass of each and every component. So it can be run as 100% conventional or 100% with widget and all steps im-between
    can control load (flow and temp), pressure, Superheat, sub cooling, and condensing flow rates.
    Basically we are measuring for results cooling capacity, power draw and heat rejected, whilst measuring the parts of the refrigeration system to ensure that we keep with component specifications.
    The TVR could be wrong (venturi type device) more than one size and the wrong type, the vessel could be wrong, asumed peak performance may be wrong.

  19. #119
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 ..Mike.
    G,day mate

    I see it last night, been an eager beaver, up all night everynight since this & the other brain splitter started just like a good horse (simon agree's ) I cant leave it alone

    R's chillerman
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    maybe u need an aussie tech to advise/fine tune ur system,afterall they are the guru's of keeping beer cool and transporting beer-quote ref beer cooler buggy and australias first fridge
    No when the Aussies need a good fridgie, they call in a "Kiwi" lol
    ( always a bit of banter between the 2 countries, a bit like north and south england)

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Or not so well working riggs! lol
    Mad, so using your control rig, if it is only a scale model of the real working size, and identical rig with device in place, would there not be changes such as weight of refrigerant and volume of flow that has to be taken into account? Maybe gravity and ambients have effects. ( Assuming these are scale models as i can't see you moving coldrooms to UK on Air N.Z.)
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    G,day C.M. Have not been on long this morning, (as you already know), so i'm catching up on reading. Got the telescope out to see if Mike "Canada" is there ready to put a sock in my mouth again. Check top of page 2 ..Mike.
    Had to go out and do an honest days work so i was not available for sock putting. Speak, O toothless wonder (as they say, don't shoot me, I'm just the piano man) and I will chime in if I can think of something useful

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    theres no banter in the uk its the northerners and the rest! haha

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    No when the Aussies need a good fridgie, they call in a "Kiwi" lol
    ( always a bit of banter between the 2 countries, a bit like north and south england)
    Well you being the southerner(as I), do they b**ch about your sheila's all night, like the double act I get hit with ? horse's / donkey's & the private meassages I dont even wanna guess
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Mike,
    The unit is a full size model, could be made bigger, could be made smaller, i would expect the complete widget to be the size of an accumulator (the size that would suit a certain size plant)
    The test rigg is basically a water cooled, water chiller. (it is some what easier to control and monitor water on both sides) the actual application is not important, it is only a refrigeration circuit.
    Copeland ZB 45 on R134a "Brand new"
    The bigger the compression ratio, then it would seem the bigger the increase in performance.
    for example (using my clacs which could be completely wrong!!) an Ac improvement would only 7-9% increase max net cooling, verses a LT system upto 55% increase in net cooling. (personally I was looking at it for hot water heat pumps)

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Well you being the southerner(as I), do they b**ch about your sheila's all night, like the double act I get hit with ? horse's / donkey's & the private meassages I dont even wanna guess
    Mate! I no southerner
    I was born in BLACKPOOL!

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    theres no banter in the uk its the northerners and the rest! haha
    Install M, no drama with the Kiwis, they scare us with the face paintings when the two countries compete in football.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

  28. #128
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    vegas of the north!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Mate! I no southerner
    I was born in BLACKPOOL!

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Mate! I no southerner
    I was born in BLACKPOOL!
    Was referring to current location - now I know I am a lonely southerner

    But then again no - I shall ask my Aussie friends if I can gain an honary (cant spell) membership

    I should be ok soon - punch & judy's bed time !
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 23-08-2011 at 12:13 AM.
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    your not wrong there ill be signing off in about 15 mins.am i punch or judy haha
    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Was referring to current location - now I know I am a lonely southerner

    But then again no - I shall ask my Aussie friends if I can gain an honary (cant spell) membership

    I should be ok soon - punch & judy's bed time !

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    your not wrong there ill be signing off in about 15 mins.am i punch or judy haha
    It was a mixed referall bud - including the seaside town of blackpool

    As for who is who - you can fight over the glove puppets between you's
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Hey, what about us Canuks where the suns still shining. Oh well, maybe i'll put a steak on the BBQ and have a beer if you are all going.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Hey, what about us Canuks where the suns still shining. Oh well, maybe i'll put a steak on the BBQ and have a beer if you are all going.
    Argh ! Mike I'm 'lee marving' & your got the steaks out, its a tough draw
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    CCF23082011_00000 (2).jpg
    A scabby drawing of possible types of widget parts

  35. #135
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    After my lovely dinner (without the sword play) I'll be back an ponder the widget some more. Cheers, CM

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Both together
    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    drawing of possible types of widget parts
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    We have proven that the flash gas (just after TEV) in a normal system has little benefit to the net cooling effect.
    By having an indermidiate pressure, we retain the mass of liquid required to meet the refrigeration load, plus we have vapour at pressure higher than the suction, this vapour has the potential to do some work (chosing the words wisely I hope, as not to influence your thought patterns) How would you then determine the work available and how would this be applied, remembering that at the end all streams will pass through the compressor.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Where is the TEV sensing bulb mounted?

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Re written Gents banter on here facts only on the other please
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    I normally use the term expansion device, just used TEV for short, but if was a TEV, then i would presume at the evap. So your next aargument is that we will have some superheat, therefore the flash gas would indeed slightly increase the net cooling effect.
    For simplistic purposes I am just using saturation points (subcooling, superheat will of course effect what happens within the system, as it always does)
    On the other hand, if the widget has a whole (this how i invisage it) is mounted next to the evap, then maybe the bulb could be mounted after the widget to ensure a fully wetted coil.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    So your next aargument is that we will have some superheat, therefore the flash gas would indeed slightly increase the net cooling effect.
    No, apparently that would be your next argument. My next argument would be something entirely different.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    No, apparently that would be your next argument. My next argument would be something entirely different.
    very witty,

    Looking forward to that one coming.

    If the thing works, and we can prove it, there are plenty of other considerations that to be needed to be accounted for. (many I already know, likely some that i do not) But unless I can get independent proof of concept and some level of possible commercial practiabilty (can be bought, sold and installed for the right price, I believe this side is possible) then other considerations are not worth looking at.

    I have spent the last year working on this (not full time) as much for fun as commercial gain. I am presently stumped! hit the wall! in the dark! can not see the wood for trees. Hence bring out into the public eye.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget.

    What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    On the other hand, if the widget has a whole (this how i invisage it) is mounted next to the evap, then maybe the bulb could be mounted after the widget to ensure a fully wetted coil.
    Flooded Evap ! even more cooling ?

    How would the mixed compressor inlet vapour work out ?

    Would an accumalator need to be used or would this have an adverse affect ?

    R's chillerman
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget.

    What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.
    Lloyds Widget Revealed ???

    We need more like this to get the brain ticking !

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Lloyds Widget Revealed ???
    I don't think so.

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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    As it happens, I have been studying the very same phenomena... although my widget is very different from your widget.

    What I was looking for is the opposing forces that bring stability, the zig that balances the zag, the ying for the yang.
    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Lloyds Widget Revealed ???

    We need more like this to get the brain ticking !

    R's chillerman
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I don't think so.
    Well thats a shame as I have been working on the same project by the sounds of it !

    Whats your position on production ?

    This could be a race to the finish now,

    On your marks

    Get set

    Go



    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  48. #148
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I don't think so.
    Well I hope you can use thread to help with your project,

    hers some more to help you along the way.

    Vortex tube to further sub cool the liquid, and to use of joul thompson to reduce compressor SH, whilst increasing mass flow, of course will need high side intercoler.

    a simple turbo charger, would do the trick

    You could use a an ejector and go internal sonic an elevate the exit pressure above that of the motive force, recondense and re-introduce into the liquid line.

    there are good few other options but just best suited to very stable steady systems.

    hope this help for a starter.

  49. #149
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Well thats a shame as I have been working on the same project by the sounds of it !

    Whats your position on production ?

    This could be a race to the finish now,

    On your marks

    Get set

    Go



    R's chillerman
    Hot and heavy competition seems unlikely. The only person I ever compete with is myself.

    My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.

    So... back burner it is.
    Last edited by Gary; 23-08-2011 at 04:47 AM.

  50. #150
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    Re: Carters Widget Revealed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post

    My widget is on a back burner. In addition to the material resources involved, real testing requires a level of self-discipline which I decidedly lack... and bringing it to market is even less appealing to me. Brainstorming is the fun part. The rest of it is a nightmare. And I'm retired.
    How true.....

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