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  1. #1
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    Is there anyone willing to advise?



    Hello,
    First apologies for my english, but I think that we can very well understand.
    I follow this forum (passive) and thank all the very useful posts in the field of refrigeration.

    My entry in the World of refrigeration is a bit naive (easy money in a short time ) and everyone here know that it unfortunately does not work that way.

    I work for myself and for my honor, I'm trying to do the job (installation of split system air conditioners) by the rules of the profession.

    The problem is that the experts of the profession very rare to ask a banal question (the others are mostly accustomed and know just installing air conditioning, the only diagnosis is leaked gas
    All my knowledge is "self taught" from the books and literature available.

    I always want more (if I can), so I have a bunch of questions about the basic operations with the installation, commissioning and servicing of split air conditioners.

    I ask what interests me and what I do, and someone with experience said to be made ​​better and easier way.

    All issues are in some basic techniques of aircon, but there are always several ways

    Thanks to all who are willing to help a novice.
    Is there anyone willing to advise?



  2. #2
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Hi, jjosip

    Welcome to RE forums...

    Quote Originally Posted by jjosip View Post
    Hello,
    First apologies for my english, but I think that we can very well understand.
    I follow this forum (passive) and thank all the very useful posts in the field of refrigeration.

    My entry in the World of refrigeration is a bit naive (easy money in a short time ) and everyone here know that it unfortunately does not work that way.

    I work for myself and for my honor, I'm trying to do the job (installation of split system air conditioners) by the rules of the profession.

    The problem is that the experts of the profession very rare to ask a banal question (the others are mostly accustomed and know just installing air conditioning, the only diagnosis is leaked gas
    All my knowledge is "self taught" from the books and literature available.

    I always want more (if I can), so I have a bunch of questions about the basic operations with the installation, commissioning and servicing of split air conditioners.

    I ask what interests me and what I do, and someone with experience said to be made ​​better and easier way.

    All issues are in some basic techniques of aircon, but there are always several ways

    Thanks to all who are willing to help a novice.
    Is there anyone willing to advise?
    of course ...

    but you need to ask question/s ... we do not know how to help you,

    also you can search forums .... for sure you will find a lot of answers

    maybe you can start here, with this gentleman ... he knows a lot, believe me...

    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ling-scenarios

    Best regards, Josip

    It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious...

    Don't ever underestimate the power of stupid people when they are in large groups.

    Please, don't teach me how to be stupid....
    No job is as important as to jeopardize the safety of you or those that you work with.

  3. #3
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Hello,
    I see a lot of installers to use a tool similar to Refco 525-F, I know of only one besides me installer that uses something like Refco RF-888-Z (Eccentric Flaring Tool).
    I have both the tools and after a while of getting used to Eccentric Flaring Tool, I have no intention of returning to the 525-f.

    benefits Eccentric Flaring Tool:
    -much better surface quality regardless of the eventual burrs from cut pipe

    advantages of standard Flaring Tool:
    lower-weight
    non-use pattern for each pipe diameter (millimeter or inch pipe)
    -good when you have limited space

    All the "better" manufacturer of air conditioners in the instalation manuals recommend using some sort of Eccentric Flaring Tool.

    I know that the quality of the connection depends in good part on the experience of the workers.
    The question is what tool you use to make the connection Eccentric Flaring Tool, or perhaps plain Flaring Tool? or you do not care?

    Thank you for your reply

  4. #4
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Hello,
    for connecting tubes in the table has a fastening torques (1 / 4 "- 18 Nm, 1 / 2" - 55 Nm ...).
    I personally pipe fittings tightened by hand with a spanner (no torque wrench), and I've never seen anyone use a torque wrench.

    I've worked in places where a large number of screws tightened with torque wrenches, but practice on a small air conditioner is a "little different"

    question:
    the use of "real" (from tables) fastening torque with a torque wrench ensures much better quality connection between the pipe connections or similar result can be obtained with spanner and "feelings" for tightening.

    Or the difference in the failure of both the assembly is not great?

  5. #5
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Hi jjosip,

    I've used the eccentric flare tool since we started fitting R410A, but i think the old style one makes better 1/4" flares, the new style one seems to make flares that are bigger on one side.

    I've only used a torque wrench on flares once at my F-Gas training assesment. I haven't bought a flare torque wrench because the one sold by the refrigeration wholesalers look like cheap crap and i'm a bit of a tool snob.

    I have three normal torque wrenches for use with socket sets for compressor bolts etc, and a torque multiplier so i've got everything covered from 2Nm up to around 1650Nm (my hobby is old lorries so i use this for the wheel nuts!)

    Jon
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  6. #6
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Hello,
    * I use "LEAK LOCK" for sealing joints

    What do you use to seal joints?
    * Nothing, metal on metal?
    * Loctite or something similar?

    An experienced worker told me that the flange put a little oil (the contact area between the fitting and the tube-the part at 45 degrees) for better sealing.

    When I was at the previous job tightened the screws, it's always been the practice to thread Apply grease or oil for easier and better tightening screws. Honestly I've never tried this technique in aircon, I always put the leak lock sealing.

    Is it maybe someone tried it?

    Thank you for your reply

  7. #7
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    I had a few leaks with Leak Lock (bad flange connection, my fault), but always my last step in installing the air conditioner is the connection of pipes, pressure test, vacuum.

    Manufacturers say:
    CURE TIME: Leak lock will cure and be ready for service in as little as 20 minutes or no more than 24 hours depending on pipe size and temperature of application.

    Does the pressure test and vacuum immediately after connecting pipe (0 minutes from the recommended 20) can significantly affect the quality of connection that is leaking when using leak lock?

  8. #8
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    You should avoid using leak-lock on every flare joint.
    It is not necessary if your flared surface is perfectly smooth.
    Best seal is copper itself (with little oil at joining surface).
    To get perfectly smooth flared surface you need to debur pipe after cutting with deburing tool or deburing knife

    and to aply oil (you could use vacuum pump oil) at flare tool.
    Your Refco tool is child of Imperial ROLL-AIR tool and makes perfect flares when pipe is properly debured and flaring tool oiled. I keep my oil for flaring in eye dropper bottle.
    Cut you pipe with new cutting wheel.
    Practice this on your excess pipes from AC installations. Practice makes perfect!

    You should only use leak-lock if you see small scratches on valve flare surface.
    If scratches are deeper, it doesn't helps, it will leak with or without leak-lock, especially if scratch is orthogonal or at some angle at flaring ring. When you see any scratch on flared pipe, cut the pipe and flare again.

    Before tightening flare, oil backside of flared pipe to avoid twisting of flare during tightening.

    Regarding proper tightening torque:

  9. #9
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Thank Nike123 and Monkey spanners for useful answers.
    Another little question

    charging air conditioning units that leaked out of the gas (R410A)


    Which of the following ways of filling the air conditioner you prefer in the field (except 1st).For domestic air conditioners

    1st only proper and official way - gas extraction, weighing, filling the exact amount of gas

    2nd practice 1 *** Observing the temperature scale on the gauge while the added gas. (standard practice I see many other installers, but for me the worst, but for me the worst for the optimal operation of air-conditioner)

    3rd 2nd practice *** Measured temperature and pressure, calculate the sub-heating

    4th Practice 3rd ***
    Measure the difference of input and output temperature of the indoor unit

  10. #10
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    For me fastest and most cost benefiting:

    1st only proper and official way - gas extraction, weighing, filling the exact amount of gas
    Customer satisfaction guaranteed.
    Last edited by nike123; 09-08-2011 at 09:36 PM.

  11. #11
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    Minimum length of pipe with a domestic air conditioners?

    Nike123 thanks for "guidlin for tightening a flare nut (when no torque wrench is aviable)"

    My next question: Minimum length of pipe with a domestic air conditioners (with a minimum distance of internal and external units):

    Regularly I see examples of installing air conditioning in which the pipes between the indoor and outdoor units "to measure cut off" without any extra tubes just in case for a cut and re-flange.
    Often seen and assembly "wall - a wall" with a length of pipe installed 0.5 meters.

    (Desirable because of big savings on consumption of copper pipes, one of my competitors would say, "looks better (with less coiled tube behind the outdoor unit), the device still works, keep more money (less material).

    I know that some manufacturers require a minimum of 3 meters (with the installation of expensive air conditioning manufacturers I respect this minimum length of the installation)
    With cheap aircon unit I leave enough length of pipe to repair joints, just in case.

    Question: The minimum length of pipe installed (which you use) with the installation of home air conditioner where the indoor and outdoor units have a minimum distance ("wall-wall" installation).

  12. #12
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    Re: Minimum length of pipe with a domestic air conditioners?

    After installation, do you check the tightness using a pressure test?
    If so, the maximum test pressure that you are using is?

    We're talking about split air conditioners

    Thanks for your replies

  13. #13
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    Re: Minimum length of pipe with a domestic air conditioners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjosip View Post
    After installation, do you check the tightness using a pressure test?
    If so, the maximum test pressure that you are using is?

    We're talking about split air conditioners

    Thanks for your replies
    Tightness test which I make is simple one.
    After evacuation I make holding vacuum test. If it pass on my electronic vacuum gauge, I release refrigerant from outdoor unit and turn unit ON in heating mode (test) Than I check with Refco soap for leaks on all flared joints.
    If that pass test, then I finish insulation on indoor unit.

  14. #14
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    After evacuation I make holding vacuum test. If it pass on my electronic vacuum gauge, I release refrigerant from outdoor unit and turn unit ON in heating mode (test) Than I check with Refco soap for leaks on all flared joints.
    If that pass test, then I finish insulation on indoor unit.
    When doing so, vacuuming, checking with a digital vacuum-meter, release the gas, soap, what is your experience to the percentage of errors that you come across such a procedure?

    Which vacuum meter do you use?
    To go now to buy a vacuum-meter, with your experience with it, which model would you take? (Which it is available in Croatia or outside Croatia).

    Would you rather have chosen Digital manometer or the use of ordinary mechanical pressure gauge and a separate electric meter vacuum?
    Recommendation for the digital gauge?

    What do you think of a mechanical vacuum-meter (not one of 0 -1 000, but the 000-100 mbar scale)?
    Last edited by jjosip; 13-08-2011 at 08:18 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Is there anyone willing to advise?

    Quote Originally Posted by jjosip View Post
    When doing so, vacuuming, checking with a digital vacuum-meter, release the gas, soap, what is your experience to the percentage of errors that you come across such a procedure?
    0%! I could tell you if joint will leak before I tighten nuts. As I explained earlier, flared surface must be scratch free. Than you always have good joint.
    Which vacuum meter do you use?
    Refco VG64.
    Prety solid, must always be cleaned with alcohol before use.

    To go now to buy a vacuum-meter, with your experience with it, which model would you take? (Which it is available in Croatia or outside Croatia).
    http://www.accutools.com/index.php?p...subpage=bluvac

    Would you rather have chosen Digital manometer or the use of ordinary mechanical pressure gauge and a separate electric meter vacuum?
    Separate electronic vacuum gauge and manifolds and hoses dedicated to vacuum jobs like this Apion kit:
    http://www.appioninc.com/products/speedsystem.html

    But that is little overkill for every day split system instalations


    Recommendation for the digital gauge?
    Digicool 1250
    http://www.trutechtools.com/Digi-Coo...ght_p_742.html

    Or this one which is not popular jet, but have potential

    http://www.fieldpiece.com/PDF/BoxArt/SMAN3-package.pdf

  16. #16
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    Re: Minimum length of pipe with a domestic air conditioners?

    Minimal pipe length is stated in installation manual. I have got only 2 units with noise problem when I made pipe shorter than stated in instalation manual.
    I solved that later by making some kind of muffler from 22 mm pipe diameter.

    P.S.
    Mogao si se učlanit na fanzo forum pa da pričamo na materinjem jeziku.
    http://fanzo.org/forum/

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