Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 131
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)



    Recently a HVAC technician installed a replacement scroll compressor. When he energized the system the compressor trip the main breaker within about 4 minutes.

    He left (went out of state) and another technician found that the compressor oil had been pumped out (up to the new drier/filter).

    I noticed before the first technician installed it that it was transported and carried in a horizontal position.

    So my questions are:

    How long after being in a horizontal position should a scroll compressor be left without power before being powered up?

    Besides being carried/transported in a horizontal position, what else would cause pumpout or pushout of the compressor oil?

    Could pressure testing or purging with nitrogen push out any oil? During charging with ***** can that push out any oil?

    During running with ***** can that push out any big quantity of oil?

    Can a typical good brand of filter/drier be expected to block most of the oil from going upstream?

    Thanks,



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Hi Texasgeezer

    I would GUESS that if all the oil was missing from the compressor then this was not due to transportation and that this was pumped out by the compressor

    a blockage in the system would allow the compressor to pump all the refrigerant from the low side and cause a negative pressure and then the compressor woud pick up the oil and pump it out

    the system should have a low pressure switch which should have shut it down

    Its seems likely that you have 2 faults here...a blockage in the system and a faulty or incorrectly set LP switch and probaly a 3rd another blown compressor

    without knowing exactly what the unit is - common blockage would be a faulty expansion valve or liquid line solonoid has not been energised or is faulty

    pressure testing would not migrate all the oil

    it is normal for oil to travel around the system including through the drier

    would really need to know running pressures and temperatures along with what system it is to know for sure

    I have known new compressors to go bang (mechanical fault @ manufactor) but not due to dumping the oil in 1st 4 minutes

    Hope this helps and keep us updated with what is found

    R;s chillerman

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Thanks for the reply, I do believe the oil dump was related to how the scroll was handled, but have been unable to find 'handling' information or 'do this/not that' information concerning transporting the unit laid down for stability.

    A few of the 'old timers' have since told me that a scroll that has been laid down should rest upright for at least a day before powering on to allow the oil to migrate back to the bottom. One told me that he would never allow a scroll to be installed if it had been transported horizontally.

    There was no blockage in the lines and a second unit was installed with another new drier filter & tested & it ran like it should.

    I'm trying to find out if there are any 'do this/not that' considerations for helping to prevent purging oil from the compressor during it's first startup after installation.

    The filter/drier did appear to 'block' the flow of the large quantity of liquid oil.

    I have also searched for information about how to properly drain a home type scroll compressor & how to properly fill it. What I have found is to turn it upside down & drain the oil out of the suction inlet & then to measure & put the 'proper' amount of new oil back into the suction inlet. This seems a bit crude to me, but maybe that is the way it is done.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I just had a thought based on your comment about 'a blockage' causing a vacuum & resulting in the oil being sucked out. Maybe enough oil that was trapped in the top of the compressor from 'mishandling' was pushed out to the filter/drier causing an increase in vacuum that then resulted in the 'rest of the oil being sucked out of the bottom' and also being trapped by the filter drier.

    Could that be 'what happened'?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    ok..lets say the excessive amount of oil in the discharge line blocked the drier...the unit would have dived into a vacuum and the LP switch should have shut the system down, saving the compressor

    also I can not see how laying it on its side would allow ALL THE OIL to end up in the wrong side, I would expect some oil in the compressor allowing it to run for longer than it did without blowing


    something does not add up
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 09-08-2011 at 02:15 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    england
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,790
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    While transporting a scroll on its side is not ideal i don't think you would get much if any oil through the scroll and into the output side which is just the top couple of inches of the body.

    They hold between 2 and 4 pints so again there is unlikely for there to be enough volume above the scroll to hold its entire oil charge.

    When you take the rubber bung out of the discharge port to pipe it any large amount of oil would flow out anyway, so would have been obvious to the original installer.

    Have a look here for a typical scrolls workings,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSYuB...eature=related

    Suspect soemthing else was or went wrong.

    Was a new drier fitted the first time?

    Jon
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    A new drier was installed. Everything looked ok. Second technician found what looked like a complete blockage from the new filter back into the condensor with oil. Second scroll installed like the first with a new filter/drier & started up without problems. Only thing noticed was how it was transported & handled.

    Also the filter/drier appeared to block all (or virtually all) liquid oil. No drops of oil showed above the filter when it was removed. So the filter did appear to cause a blockage due to the liquid oil.

    What is the consensus on how to handle the scroll, should it be kept upright even during transportation?

    If oil does come out of the outlet when the plug is removed, or it is somehow pumped out, how does one properly determine that the compressor has a proper amount of oil?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    england
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,790
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Why did the original compressor fail?

    This is the first question that should be answered.

    Clean new oil will not block up a drier, the oil goes round the system with the refrigerant anway.

    How did the new tech find that the replacement compressor had lost oil? Did he drain it and measure it? Or did he assume it had because there was oil in the liquid line? Had this oil come from the new compressor or the old one? Is there now too much oil in the system?

    Cut the old drier open and see whats blocked it up.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcrnzxbEtSk

    Jon
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,556
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Was this a single or 3 phase compressor, if it ran backwards it could push the oil out of the suction port.
    It could just be a friday compressor, and had no oil in it. I have not seen you talking about removing 2-4 pints of oil from the system.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    United States of America
    Age
    53
    Posts
    86
    Rep Power
    7

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    what you describe is what happens when you hook up the "start" wire and the "common" wire in reverse. this usually happens when the compressor plug is installed incorrectly. i am assuming this is a single phase scroll compressor. I think the compressor didn't run long enough for it to push all the oil that had accumulated in the vanes. I have accidentally started up a scroll compressor without much oil(beginning days as a tech), and what happened was that the compressor began to lockup and actually overloaded the compressor motor to the point that it heated and turned off on overload. Then later after cooling the compressor with ice, the compressor started again. I shut it off and removed all the remaining oil and added the proper amount. It ran fine afterwards.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Split Croatia
    Age
    51
    Posts
    6,100
    Blog Entries
    6
    Rep Power
    30

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    What is the consensus on how to handle the scroll, should it be kept upright even during transportation?
    From Maneurop Scroll Performer instructions:
    • Store and transport the compressor in an
    upright position.
    The compressor must be
    handled with caution in the
    vertical position (maximum
    offset from the vertical : 15į)
    http://www.ra.danfoss.com/TechnicalI...3.A2.02%20.pdf
    Last edited by nike123; 04-08-2011 at 08:53 AM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by texas64 View Post
    push all the oil that had accumulated in the vanes.
    What Vanes ? its a scroll not a centriff !

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    United States of America
    Age
    53
    Posts
    86
    Rep Power
    7

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I got this from Wikipedia, I guess you can't believe everything you read:

    History

    Lťon Creux first patented a scroll compressor in 1905 in France and the US (Patent number 801182).[1] Creux originally invented the compressor as a rotary steam engine concept, but the metal casting technology of the period was not sufficiently advanced to construct a working prototype, since a scroll compressor demands very tight tolerances to function effectively. The first practical scroll compressors did not appear on the market until after World War II,when higher-precision machine tools permitted their construction. They were not commercially produced for air conditioning until the early 1980s.[2]
    [edit]Design

    A scroll compressor uses two interleaving scrolls to pump, compress or pressurize fluids such as liquids and gases. The vane geometry may be involute, archimedean spiral, or hybrid curves.[3][4][5][6][7]
    Often, one of the scrolls is fixed, while the other orbits eccentrically without rotating, thereby trapping and pumping or compressing pockets of fluid between the scrolls. Another method for producing the compression motion is co-rotating the scrolls, in synchronous motion, but with offset centers of rotation. The relative motion is the same as if one were orbiting.
    Another variation is with flexible (layflat) tubing where the archimedean spiral acts as a peristaltic pump, which operates on much the same principle as a toothpaste tube. They have casings filled with lubricant to prevent abrasion of the exterior of the pump tube and to aid in the dissipation of heat, and use reinforced tubes, often called 'hoses'. This class of pump is often called a 'hose pumper'. Furthermore, since there are no moving parts in contact with the fluid, peristaltic pumps are inexpensive to manufacture. Their lack of valves, seals and glands makes them comparatively inexpensive to maintain, and the use of a hose or tube makes for a low-cost maintenance item compared to other pump types.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I didn't provide all the information about the failure because I was only interested in the (oil) issues concerning a home type scroll compressor.

    I am not an experienced AC/refrigeration person, but I'm a little bit more technical than others that have no interest in this sort of thing.

    I spent a few hours searching for information before I posted my questions. After sleeping, my first thoughts are that this subject has not been thoroughly studied & put to bed.

    In looking a the interconnected components, what I am wondering is:

    - the evaporator coil is a more friendly place to retain liquid oil than a higher temperature & more agitated compressor or hot & designed to flow condensor coil. It seems that the evaporator coil would cool the mixture & more readily 'capture' oil in it's lowest spots in a liquid form. It does not appear to be designed to readily return the oil if it does convert to a more liquid form (unlike an accumulator is designed to control the return of oil).

    - maybe on a scroll compressor during normal operation most of the oil remains in the compressor & does not readily circulate throughout the system.

    - maybe since the installer can't see the oil leaving the compressor during startup after a replacement scroll is installed they are never aware that the 'mishandling' of the compressor resulted in oil being expelled & it will never properly return to the compressor where it is needed to give a longer life.

    So what I think happened is the scroll was mishandled resulting in oil going into the scroll compression area & maybe above that. And when the scroll was placed into the vertical position again not enough time elapsed for the oil to return to the bottom of the scroll. So, when the scroll was started 'all' oil above the 'sump' area was sucked or pushed out of the compressor. And, in my case so much oil was pushed out that it caused the scroll to shut down after running for a while.

    I think for those that have some old scrolls on hand it would not take long to verify that mishandling would cause oil to be pumped out. And for those that have cut the top off of a scroll maybe pour some oil into the scroll compression area & see how long it takes to go back to the sump.

    As 'nike123 from croatia' posted, the manufacturers are aware of this but it seems they have not provided enough information to support why.

    Maybe, for all of those that have 'mishandled' the scroll they have been shortening the life of that scroll & the system where it was installed under the mistaken thoughts that they are doing nothing wrong. Sort of like how 'no liquid refrigerant should be put into the suction side', but it does seem to be routinely done to shorten the time required to bring the system back into operation. Too me it seems sort of like 'how hard can you hit someone' before it is deemed unacceptable.

    Maybe for those of you that have good contacts with the few scroll manufacturers you could ask them to better document the reasons for not transporting the scroll except in a vertical position. I bet it would save them a bundle in warranty claims.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Hello Bud

    the reason behind the handling is to stop the FIRST scroll from being filled with oil

    if it was and the unit was started there is the risk of hydraulic lock, which will damage the scroll

    oil can not get past all the scrolls - they have to seal to be able to pump

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Thanks chillerman2006,

    I can clearly see why the scroll should always be handled in the vertical position.

    What I'm trying to find out is what should be done when it is not handled that way. Locally, I received comments from less than an hour, at least one day, to 'I would never install one that had not been kept vertical'.

    The manufacturers do not appear to adequately address this issue, this is possibly resulting in a lot of people unintentionally doing something that possibly reduces the life of the compressor.

    - if oil is expelled on first startup due to mishandling, then that is not a good thing

    - there does not appear to be a consensus on how long to leave a compressor in the vertical position before starting up. Unintentional things happen, the compressor can fall over easily during tranportation because of it's shape & weight. The compressor is easier to carry vertically.

    - a lot of people in the trade appear to assume that any oil that leaves the compressor will
    return to it. I do not believe that the typical home system is designed and installed to make this happen.
    - the few evaporator coils I've seen don't appear to designed to return liquid oil efficiently.

    I'm just trying to see if anyone knows what truly should be done to try to prevent shortening the life of the compressor in case of mishandling.

    Too me any oil that is lost from the compressor is not a good thing & would probably reduce it's life due to that loss. Higher temperature due to less lubrication & quicker breakdown of the remaining oil probably results. Also any appreciable amount of oil elsewhere in the system is probably not a good thing.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    All i can say is it would not matter to me if it was delivered via a catherine wheel, as due to the size of the systems i work on - by time i have sweated it in, pressure tested, triple vacced, thats a least half a day and most of the oil that could have been in the first scroll would have migrated back down - also during pressure testing i check the high pressure switch is set correctly and then the low pressure switch as i release the nitrogen

    i imagine this pot is quite a bit smaller than i am used to but principles the same

    i would be really really surprised if this failure was caused by the way it was transported

    its most likely a blockage that caused a low side vacuum and the bit you keep missing THE LOW PRESSURE SWITCH failed

    Did either of the technicians check that the safety circuits were working correctly or give a reason for the first compressors failure, did they acid check the oil, or send it for Analysis

    would be nice to know why the first compressor failed(my customers insist on an explanation & my remedy), was it mechancal failure, burnout, liquid returning ect ect

    other than that it could just have been a manufacturing fault with compressor - its not that common but it does happen

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    There is no low pressure cutoff on my Carrier brand condensing unit. A lot of other protective things were not installed either. Probably their units run a long time without these things & when they would come in handy to protect the compressor the unit is out of warranty.

    The time elapsed from 'show up' to 'power on' was about 1 & 1/2 hours. My objective was to get through this 'horrible' hot weather we're having here in Texas. My original intention was to completely replace the system during our cold period.



    My questions relate to the 'oil' issues of improper handling. I also wanted to know how to check the oil volume in a small homeowner type scroll.

    During the three week elapsed time since my 1st compressor failed I have found about 12 things that different 'reputable' contractors have done improperly. From the primary ground wire not connected to my air handler upstairs - to the screws that support the 'A' coil being left out after servicing.

    I'm trying to get better educated so I can try to make sure that the work is done properly & professionally.

    I am a little puzzled that there has not been more comments like the one from 'split Croatia' that give manufacturer's information about how to make up for something like improperly transporting a scroll.

    I think I know how to check the oil level, it appears to be crude, but might be the only way: dump the oil out.... measure it.... add make up oil.... dump it back in. Then leave it vertical for at least a day & longer if possible before powering on.

    Seems like something that most contractors would not want to do.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgeezer View Post
    I think I know how to check the oil level, it appears to be crude, but might be the only way: dump the oil out.... measure it.... add make up oil.... dump it back in. Then leave it vertical for at least a day & longer if possible before powering on.
    A recipe for disaster. You have learned just enough to be dangerous.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Thanks for the smart? remark.

    I have had people like you work on my unit in the past. Think you know it all but are not willing to show how much good information or bad advice you can give. If you know how to properly do it, then tell me.

    I have simply asked for information, I am not doing the work myself.

    Previous contractors have:
    1. Left the main ground wire floating in the air & not connected to my air handler.
    2. Installed the air handler to low, inside the emergency pan.
    3. Plumbed the primary & emergency drain wrong.
    4 left metal on my ductwork exposed to hot attic temperatures after sealing with latex. Some of the exposed metal runs were over six feet long & without insulation put back in place.
    5. Installed a 40 amp breaker when a 50 should have been used.
    6. Put in too small of an intake grill.
    7 Beat one compressor with a two pound sledge when it didn't start up (another contractor found it had been miswired by the compressor beater).
    8 Left the front sheet metal off of the 'A' coil
    9 Left the 'A' coil hanging by the copper pipes (didn't put the screws back in mounting plate).
    10 Wrong sized run capacitor
    11 Left part of the return copper uninsulated
    12 Ripped the primary drain pan about 4 "

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    So Gary, from New Port Lucie, how do you properly check oil level in a home type Copeland scroll compressor?
    And what is the proper procedure to follow when the scroll has been mishandled?

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgeezer View Post
    Thanks for the smart? remark.

    I have had people like you work on my unit in the past. Think you know it all but are not willing to show how much good information or bad advice you can give. If you know how to properly do it, then tell me.

    I have simply asked for information, I am not doing the work myself.
    I have no problem with seeking knowledge, nor do I have any problem with doing the work yourself. I have a problem with guessing, assuming, jumping to conclusions... and then feeling qualified to offer procedures based on all of the above.

    We don't know what destroyed the original compressor, we don't know what destroyed the first replacement compressor, and we don't know if the current compressor is working properly... or what was done to correct the problem(s)... if anything.

    BTW, that's New Port Richey, not New Port Lucie.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    england
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,790
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    To find out how much oil is in compressors without an oil level sightglass you have to tip it out the suction port (not comps with built in accumilators though) into a measuring jug, then put new fresh oil back in, making an educated guess how much was still in the comp and how much may be round the system.
    Oil is by nature runny so by the time its been refitted vaced and charged it will be where it needs to be or it never will.

    I'm not sure if you realise that its normal for the oil to leave the compressors discharge when running, it goes round the system and back the the sump via the suction.

    They are a very robust compressor design, the scrolls will can move apart to allow any oil or liquid refrigerant, thats why they are called complient.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1zA...80520A790FB81A

    Copeland used to put screws through them when they were developing them to test the complient feature.

    If all the oil has gone, i could more believe it leaked out in the guys truck on the way to you, or its been washed out by liquid refrigerant causing it to foam and up to the intake port than its all been sat in the head and scrolls till it was started. No amount of normal running will suck the oil up from the sump. What oil normally leave the discharge has made its way to the top of the compressor by its lubrication system to the bearings and scrolls etc.

    Oh, and if you had had people like Gary working on your unit in the past it would still be working ok and you wouldn't be on here being condescending...

    Jon
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    [QUOTE=texasgeezer;235811]Thanks for the smart? remark.

    I have had people like you work on my unit in the past. Think you know it all
    QUOTE]

    I think your find that if someone like gary had worked on your unit, you would not have had any problems

    The list of problems you have had suggest you have been employing sub standard companies to do your work

    You may want to do some background and maybe even buy one of garys books!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    They are a very robust compressor design, the scrolls will can move apart to allow any oil or liquid refrigerant, thats why they are called complient.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV1zA...80520A790FB81A

    Copeland used to put screws through them when they were developing them to test the complient feature.
    Monkey Spanners - Well I didn't know that, just shows you never stop learning in this game

    Gary - whats your view on a scroll hydraulically locking ?

    I know how robust they are, pumping vapour, liquid and oil (and now screws) but I am under the impression they will be damaged if one of the scrolls is totally filled with oil

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,556
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I think that scrolls are robust, but not bullet proof.
    I did go to a copeland tech seminar, where it was shown that the comp was loaded with 100% liquid then started, away she went. How ever I decided to untake my own set of test (basically to install an accumulator or not), when running I introduced large amount of liquid, what was observed was massive pressure pulses (bet my needle on my discharge pressure gauge), even though the average pressure was not excessive, after a while the internal relief opened. This was repeated many times, comp still runs but sounds like bag of spanners spinning a washing machine.
    Oil is always going to leave the compressor, hence the reason for correct pipe sizing to ensure oil return, if was dry running then we would increase pipe size to reduce pressure drops and increase efficiency. ( a balance is always required)
    The question still remains if the the comps have dumbed all the oil! where is it?

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Cheers for the info mad fridgie

    very interesting + suggests damage was caused but still works

    Compressor version of run flat tyres

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    There have been only a couple of answers that I feel are appropriate to my original questions. To me most of you are interested in 'what caused the original failure'. That is not important information to know if you have any knowledge about what the answers are to my question.

    Gary's 1st comment was one that will leave an everlasting impression. "A recipe for disaster. You have learned just enough to be dangerous. " To me, that is a 'smart' & 'stupid' remark to make. I don't give a hoot if most of his work appears to work OK or not. That answer has nothing to do with my questions.

    I believe a lot of technicians survive because the equipment is very forgiving of installer/servicer errors.
    I believe that 'mishandling' and subsequent oil discharge is one of these errors. The equipment is normally forgiving & it takes a great quantity of oil to show an immediate problem. A small amount of liquid oil at initial startup probably does circulate through the system without causing noticeable problems.

    What I believe happened to the second compressor is that oil was still in the upper area (scroll or upper chamber) & it was pushed out during the initial startup.

    The oil was in liquid form where normally hot gas would be expelled. This liquid went through the condenser pipe & coil & hit the new filter-drier & with any flushed out particles created a partial blockage that overwhelmed the compressor. Any oil that was pushed above the filter drier returned by gravity waiting for the next startup after the compressor cooled down. That is why it was still below the filter area, even after a few startup attempts.

    My air conditioning system is working fine, now, after replacing the filter-drier a second time, and getting rid of the excess oil.

    There was about a pint of liquid oil that came from the replacement compressor and was in the filter & the 3/8" pipe, back into the condenser.

    My remaining unanswered question is 'how long to wait' after a small scroll compressor has been laid down for 'ease of handling'?

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,556
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Lets look at this technically, lets presume the compression chamber is 100% full of oil, how much oil do you think you are talking about. Without now the the actual displacement, but you have said domestic, so not a whopper, we are looking at under 0.1Litres, well less than 1/4pint if my conversions are correct. So the amount of oil removed has to be attributed to some other reason, than just your transport issue. (still leaving enough oil charge to keep the bearings lubricated) You must also understand that oil is always flowing through the refrigeration system.
    The compressor is not designed to pump a liquid (compliant) so even if the oil was pumped out (which it would over time) the actual piping velocities would be very low with oil only and would not strip contaminets from the internals from the pipe.
    Fouling of your system is more than likley caused by the original compressor failure.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgeezer View Post
    To me most of you are interested in 'what caused the original failure'. That is not important information to know if you have any knowledge about what the answers are to my question.

    Gary's 1st comment was one that will leave an everlasting impression. "A recipe for disaster. You have learned just enough to be dangerous. " To me, that is a 'smart' & 'stupid' remark to make. I don't give a hoot if most of his work appears to work OK or not.

    I believe a lot of technicians survive
    I believe that 'mishandling' and subsequent oil discharge is one of these errors.

    What I believe happened to the second compressor is that oil was still in the upper area (scroll or upper chamber) & it was pushed out during the initial startup.

    The oil was in liquid form where normally hot gas would be expelled. This liquid went through the condenser pipe & coil & hit the new filter-drier

    My remaining unanswered question is 'how long to wait' after a small scroll compressor has been laid down for 'ease of handling'?

    Tex,everyone on here that replies to posts enjoys helping people

    No ones digging you out or being funny

    If you take a step back and read back all the posts and look at it from theother side of the fence for a minute, you may not feel as offended

    You have started a thread asking questions and whilst the replies may not beexactly what you are looking for, they have been free and from experiencedengineers, whom in order to be able to give advice have to be able to imaginethe system in question from the info put forward and all of which have to havea good understanding of amongst other things, chemistry, physics,thermodynamics and electro-mechanics.

    You then do some info digging and tell us how it is and you believe this ishow it all works

    Donít you think thatís a little rude & disrespectful ?

    Gary for onehas over 4 decades of training, hands on experience, teaching and the author ofsome well known technical manuals

    While his bedside manner may not be always perfect when rallied/upset (whoseis?) by what we see as (donít take offence) anothernewbie know it all, his comments are valid & justified by your own commentsand guesswork.

    I for one respect his knowledge and achievements in the industry and havethis week personally asked him for advice (which I also received free ofcharge) and I have nearly 3 decades of training and experience. You just neverstop learning in this game.

    You want info and so do we

    The first question on all our lips is why did the 1st compressorfail, as it is the way the industry works.

    We donít have that answer, which is not good as this could be the reason the2nd compressor went pop ! Burnout and then no system clean up !!

    Leaving contaminated acidic oil and particles from the burnt out compressorswindings insulation, in the system, the latter could have blocked your drier,the oil could not.

    Acidic oil in a system will contaminate a new compressors oil, causingpremature failure. Plus note it does not need any gravity to return to the lowside of the compressor just the correct oil for the refrigerant in use to ensureits miscibility with the refrigerant, both vapour and liquid.



    The answer to your question of handling of a scroll and how long to leave itbefore starting it up in a system does not have a definitive answer.

    One manufacturer have one view as NIKE found for you 15 degrees, anotherview monkey spanners knows of pumpingoil, liquid and even nails demonstrated before his eyes and then again liquidtime after time from mad fridgie shows that could not kill it.

    The general view is from all the experience of all the engineers that havereplied has been no longer than the time it takes to correctly install the pot.As it just can not go no where and would drain back down.



  31. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    Lets look at this technically, lets presume the compression chamber is 100% full of oil, how much oil do you think you are talking about. Without now the the actual displacement, but you have said domestic, so not a whopper, we are looking at under 0.1Litres, well less than 1/4pint if my conversions are correct. So the amount of oil removed has to be attributed to some other reason, than just your transport issue. (still leaving enough oil charge to keep the bearings lubricated) You must also understand that oil is always flowing through the refrigeration system.
    The compressor is not designed to pump a liquid (compliant) so even if the oil was pumped out (which it would over time) the actual piping velocities would be very low with oil only and would not strip contaminets from the internals from the pipe.
    Fouling of your system is more than likley caused by the original compressor failure.
    But... but... but... he knows that the original failure is irrelevant.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Tex,everyone on here that replies to posts enjoys helping people

    No ones digging you out or being funny

    If you take a step back and read back all the posts and look at it from theother side of the fence for a minute, you may not feel as offended

    You have started a thread asking questions and whilst the replies may not beexactly what you are looking for, they have been free and from experiencedengineers, whom in order to be able to give advice have to be able to imaginethe system in question from the info put forward and all of which have to havea good understanding of amongst other things, chemistry, physics,thermodynamics and electro-mechanics.

    You then do some info digging and tell us how it is and you believe this ishow it all works

    Don’t you think that’s a little rude & disrespectful ?

    Gary for onehas over 4 decades of training, hands on experience, teaching and the author ofsome well known technical manuals

    While his bedside manner may not be always perfect when rallied/upset (whoseis?) by what we see as (don’t take offence) anothernewbie know it all, his comments are valid & justified by your own commentsand guesswork.

    I for one respect his knowledge and achievements in the industry and havethis week personally asked him for advice (which I also received free ofcharge) and I have nearly 3 decades of training and experience. You just neverstop learning in this game.

    You want info and so do we

    The first question on all our lips is why did the 1st compressorfail, as it is the way the industry works.

    We don’t have that answer, which is not good as this could be the reason the2nd compressor went pop ! Burnout and then no system clean up !!

    Leaving contaminated acidic oil and particles from the burnt out compressorswindings insulation, in the system, the latter could have blocked your drier,the oil could not.

    Acidic oil in a system will contaminate a new compressors oil, causingpremature failure. Plus note it does not need any gravity to return to the lowside of the compressor just the correct oil for the refrigerant in use to ensureits miscibility with the refrigerant, both vapour and liquid.



    The answer to your question of handling of a scroll and how long to leave itbefore starting it up in a system does not have a definitive answer.

    One manufacturer have one view as NIKE found for you 15 degrees, anotherview monkey spanners knows of pumpingoil, liquid and even nails demonstrated before his eyes and then again liquidtime after time from mad fridgie shows that could not kill it.

    The general view is from all the experience of all the engineers that havereplied has been no longer than the time it takes to correctly install the pot.As it just can not go no where and would drain back down.

    On the other hand, if the internal mounts are broken, there is no amount of time that will fix it.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    On the other hand, if the internal mounts are broken, there is no amount of time that will fix it.

    Well if they failed whats to say that in turn they have not taken out the reverse syphon pressure shims, that new compressor going to fail

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,556
    Rep Power
    20

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    But... but... but... he knows that the original failure is irrelevant.
    Sorry my mistake, I should know better by now!

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I'm only looking for answers to a few questions. I didn't want to muddy the water by talking about something that I understand. My original compressor failed after it was 19 years old. It was not noisy beforehand. All the motor terminals had continuity to the copper pipes. As expected a new filter/drier was installed. A 'quickchek' did not show any sign of acid.

    I am a 'newbie' to y'all, but it does seem that most of you want to troubleshoot my failures instead of providing answers to what should be relatively simple questions for engineers & other concerned professionals to answer.

    How long to leave a scroll vertical, before powering on, to prevent pumpout of 'pure' liquid oil? I have found that Copeland does expect a new compressor to be rejected if it was shipped in a non-vertical position, so maybe this should make you wonder why?

    I have also been told that it is expected that only about .5% of the oil, related to refrigerant flow should be out of the compressor. Not being an engineer this is hard to get a grip on what it means in real terms, but it does seem that a large quantity of oil is not expected to be out of the compressor.

    Also, from the way the filter appears to be made, maybe it passes oil in droplet/mist form just fine, but how does it handle oil in liquid form? Do any of you really know?

    As for Gary, no amount of defensive talk will change my view of him. If he bent over, then looked up, he might get a better view of how he came across with his flippant answer.

    My questions were prompted by my equipment failure, but they only relate to 'oil' issues in general. I still believe that this is a problem that has been hidden because you simply can't see the 'oil' that might be there due to mishandling.

    Most of you seem to minimize my questions, but since none of you can provide a truly supportable opinion, I do not yet believe they are not important to consider. One of the posts does show that immediate damage can occur due to oil in the top of the scroll at initial startup. Since damage did occur (even in testing) wouldn't you like to know how to properly minimize any liquid oil from being ejected at initial startup?

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Tex

    hands up I dont have the answer you require

    I have even been doing my own digging to try to find the perfect answer for you

    The problem I have is unlike screws, recips & turbo's where I have reguarly had my hands & eyes on there internal components with scrolls I have not

    A couple of times i have cut the casing off and had a good look but not recently, so i have to rely upon old memory and pictures to jog my memory

    You seem like a smart fella and pick things up very quickly, so try this link and come back and educate me when you have the answer

    http://prostores1.carrierzone.com/se...com/StoreFront

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Thanks Chillerman,

    I'll let this drop, after dissecting my original compressor this morning, I don't see how much more than about 8 ounces trapped in the upper chamber would be typically pumped out after mishandling. Also, I was really surprised to see all the areas of the scroll had such little wear considering it was about 19 years old.

    It doesn't appear there is any consensus on what a 'delay' might be to allow oil to return to the sump.

    I've kept the second scroll that had the pumpout & for my own interest will do some 'controlled' tests with it this fall.

    I do believe this should be a concern for replacement scrolls, if they are laid down, even temporarily there will most likely be some pumpout due to that mishandling. They are definitely easier to handle if they are close to horizontal.

    By the way, if you receive any texts inviting you to a street party it might be wise to ignore them, unless you want to help gather up the hooligans. It's really a shame to see that type of mob behavior.

  38. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Thanks for the update mate

    It's nice to hear answers as well as questions

    We all want to learn & thats what RE is all about

    I like the riot comment...nice one

    Last edited by chillerman2006; 10-08-2011 at 08:40 PM. Reason: ref..riots
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    13
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    I didn't think I would be adding more to this thread but...

    I received a 'semi official' email stating that the smaller Copeland scrolls should be left in the vertical position for 'at least an hour' before powering on. Hopefully Copeland will be adding an official comment to their website in the near future.

    They had another answer to a question about how much oil would be expected to be in one of the smaller Copeland scrolls during normal operation. The way I read the answer is that it would not be unusual to have 80 percent or more of the oil in circulation (out of the scroll).

  40. #40
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    thanks I think

    Semi official ?

    it would be standing in situ longer than hour so - all good

    not sure about 80% in system - other way round - 80% in compressor

    glad i never fit anything without sight glasses - Its nice to see what you have rather than guess
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    44
    Posts
    5,707
    Rep Power
    39

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! just breifly viewed all the previous posts,
    1 is crankcase heater working? was it energised for 24hrs prior to starting?
    2 were all the electrics changed?
    3 was a suction burn out drier fitted?
    4 was the tev orifice inspected to ensure the inlet gauze is clear?
    5 you say it ran for 4 minutes before it failed-that tells me when it was charged liquid was dumped into the system washing the oil out the sump !
    was this repair a cash job?ie throw the comp in ,take the money and run?
    have u spoke with copeland technical. i think i have helped u with ur lil dilemma

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! just breifly viewed all the previous posts,
    1 is crankcase heater working? was it energised for 24hrs prior to starting?
    2 were all the electrics changed?
    3 was a suction burn out drier fitted?
    4 was the tev orifice inspected to ensure the inlet gauze is clear?
    5 you say it ran for 4 minutes before it failed-that tells me when it was charged liquid was dumped into the system washing the oil out the sump !
    was this repair a cash job?ie throw the comp in ,take the money and run?
    have u spoke with copeland technical. i think i have helped u with ur lil dilemma
    Hmmmm! I think you got this one rumbled

    cash job parts & procedures not followed

    There has been no mention of these checks or procedures so we can conclude 'you get what you pay for' & without a clear feed of liquid & suction clean up its not gonna be long!

    The original poster had us chasing a problem that did not exist & confused us

    Tex, am wondering did you get offered these services and declined due to cost

    or

    was it a cheap cash job, how much was you charged ?
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    44
    Posts
    5,707
    Rep Power
    39

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    dont copeland indeed all compressors that come in a box have an arrow to show which way up? even the postman can manage that! so anyone with basic refrigeration knowledge knows this!(even the gimps at comet tell u 24hrs for ur misses cake fridge!haha

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by texasgeezer View Post
    Also, I was really surprised to see all the areas of the scroll had such little wear considering it was about 19 years old.
    I've seen compressors go twice that age without incident. Old age is not, in and of itself, a cause of failure.

    I would be far more concerned about a 19 year accumulation of dirt on the coils and/or fan blades, which is the most likely cause of the original failure.

    Also of concern would be the condition of electrical components that have experienced that failure. The original compressor shorted to ground, which means very heavy current was drawn across any and all contacts in series with it, likely burning them.

  45. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Quote Originally Posted by install monkey View Post
    !(even the gimps at comet tell u 24hrs for ur misses cake fridge!haha
    Your so right it's embarrassing

    We are all going to have to book ourselves on a comet salesman coarse

    I just asked the mrs "what do you have to do if you pick up a freezer from the shop & lay it down?"

    Straight away she said "let it stand for a day"

    Or better still lads she just said for a small fee you can all come for dinner & she'll explain it in more detail



    ps. rb & the fire brigade "your not welcome" she spends enough time teaching you boys new things
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    44
    Posts
    5,707
    Rep Power
    39

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    i hope that wasn't small talk before foreplay! she's just left rbs eating a choccy biccy-thats why she's chubby-everytime she goes to rb's he gives her a choccy biccy!hahahaha

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    UK
    Age
    48
    Posts
    1,920
    Rep Power
    23

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Well ok ok

    they can cum too
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    manchester
    Age
    44
    Posts
    5,707
    Rep Power
    39

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    even the 2 spanish fire men hose a and hose b !

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    The cake fridge being on its side is a more valid concern, because the oil has someplace to go (suction line and/or evaporator).

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    New Port Richey, Florida - USA
    Age
    72
    Posts
    5,069
    Rep Power
    28

    Re: related to proper handling of home type copeland scroll compressor (oil related)

    Seems the compressor-being-on-its-side-caused-it-to-pump-out-all-the-oil theory is unravelling.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •