R410A phase out

[MikeHolm]

I may be daft and should know this but I heard a rumour that 410A is being phased out. Too many issues with high pressure, I'm told. Is it just north america or Europe too?

[NoNickName]

Never heard of such rumour. In the EU, starting as of 2013, there may be a phase down on HFC, not a phase out. It means that the HFC might be subject to taxation.

[desA]

What's in store for CO2 then?

[MikeHolm]

What's in store for CO2 then?

Good question. If 410A were being being phased out for pressure related reasons, the only reason for CO2 to stay would be environmental (and the argument is dicey for that).

If it were phased out, what would replace it? I need to find out where the person got his info....more later

[stanleyzhao]

R410A is a old refrigerant, but not old enough to be phased out. In fact in some emerging markets, R410A is applied as a kind of new and Eco-friendly refrigerant on air conditioners, chillers, and heat pump water heaters. R410A is still a good option to replace R22.

[desA]

Using R410A in hot-water AWHP's is asking for difficulties.

If in doubt, please investigate the high-side pressures with hot water exit at 55'C, air on at 20'C. Better still, at air on 0-5'C & observe compressor discharge temperature.

[MikeHolm]

I've been looking at that and have come to believe 410 is a less than ideal compromise. I know some fridgies who just won't bother using anything other than R22 (although they are more just service and don't do new installs).

I'm sizing the HPs for a max 40c target liquid temp so it is less of an issue for me. I am using solar as much as possible with off peak electric for DHW back up.

So, what are the options that we could believe to be around in 10 years+?

[Magoo]

Ammonia, eco friendly. Why doesnt a manufacturer come up with a hermetic or semi hermetic with aluminium windings.

[Grizzly]

And a fraction of the cost of any other refrigerant, regardless of what discounts you get!
Don't forget that the footprint is a third less with approx. a third less energy consumed for the same duty!
Witt have been producing Hermetic liquid pumps for years so the technology is there.
Grizzly

[PaulZ]

Hi Magoo
Frigopol compressors can run on ammonia, their windings are on the outside of a steel dome that covers the stator, similar principle to a Witt, Nikisso liquid pumps.
We sold a few several years ago, worked well enough but parts were hard to get.
Paul

[mad fridgie]

And a fraction of the cost of any other refrigerant, regardless of what discounts you get!
Don't forget that the footprint is a third less with approx. a third less energy consumed for the same duty!
Witt have been producing Hermetic liquid pumps for years so the technology is there.
Grizzly

Hermetic liquid pumps are canned pumps and are no so efficient, Frigopol compressor from Switzerland use the same method. The rotor is seperated from the stator by a metal sheild "Can"

[mad fridgie]

Hi Magoo
Frigopol compressors can run on ammonia, their windings are on the outside of a steel dome that covers the stator, similar principle to a Witt, Nikisso liquid pumps.
We sold a few several years ago, worked well enough but parts were hard to get.
Paul

Beat me to it.!!!!!!

[MikeHolm]

Ammonia, eco friendly. Why doesnt a manufacturer come up with a hermetic or semi hermetic with aluminium windings.

I expect this will happen sooner than later. With the copper hording in China and the general shortage of copper, many of the boiler companies have changed over to SS for boiler piping. In the solar hot water business, 10 years ago, 95% of the companies used copper fins and now 60% are using AL fins. A major metals company has just introduced an AL tubing that can withstand the aggressive environment of glycol when it gets acidic so I see a time in the near future when we will see AL windings.

We had AL wiring over here 30-40 years ago but there were fires and connection issues in the outlets due to expansion and contraction. These can be sorted out, I'm sure.

[MikeHolm]

Hermetic liquid pumps are canned pumps and are no so efficient, Frigopol compressor from Switzerland use the same method. The rotor is seperated from the stator by a metal sheild "Can"

Has anyone ever used this technology in the HP market? Sorry, don't know much about ammonia.

[desA]

Good for the sinus passages.

[MikeHolm]

That much I know.....