F**K Hitachi

[rbartlett]

well we are installing our first Hitachi units 1 inceiling ducted 5 wall mounts and 1 under ceiling

What a load of ****e..

Easier to install -my arse !!

oh don't forget to wrap the mains wires LN+E three times round the magnents(supplied) coz their electronics isn't up to it...

oh don't forget you must use screened cable and as you have 240 and 24 v you must run 2 cables coz their electronics isn't up to it..

you can power to the outside but to remove the (supplied) cable means you have to dismantle the indoor unit !!!!

underceiling unit to fit the 'wireless remote ' option

first WIRE the WIRELESS remote base unit and run the cable down the wall !!

what a bloody larf. what is the point of having a wireless remote option if you have to wire in a base unit which (unlike the Daikin) won't go into the actual unit....???

jeezus Hitachi wot a load of rubbish..

forget 'em and stick to Daikin

cheers

richard

[Brian_UK]

OK Richard, we understand that you are taking a stand against your illustrious leader but are they that bad ?

Anyway he'll have you for plagarising his thread title..

[botrous]

LOLOL , let's hear what Marc will say about that

[Abe]

Like I said.............What is wrong with Fujitsu??

Give em a try........

[rbartlett]

OK Richard, we understand that you are taking a stand against your illustrious leader but are they that bad ?

Anyway he'll have you for plagarising his thread title..

I don't have a leader -of any sort..

cheers

richard

[slingblade]

lol... hitachi must be really ****e if you prefer daikin {of all things}. i dont fit that many personally but fujitsu are the best, no danger. ill stick to troubleshooting on chillers and leave you to enjoy yourself.

[stan1488]

Buy Airedale, in which time you want to engineer a proper small split hvac system, Carrier Trane York cheers mate!

[OrO]

Gentlemen,

I think that all technologies are more or less the same ( TOP 5 Producents ) and all another things depend on people which work with the technologies, on their attitude and their habits .... etc.
And of course Ii is linked to the trade mark for which your heart beats.

My beats for DAIKIN

PS: Today I´ve heard something about VRV III, and I think it will be GREAT BOMB on the market !

[Bones]

Fujitsus new logo.....

drum roll....

[Brian_UK]

Leader, hey? Sheesh Brian, I never saw you as the **** stiring type

Who ? me?

[rbartlett]

Richard is an ESTJ. They hate change and especially hate having to adjust to change

Marc is an estp which likes change for no other reason than it's change. logic and reasoning become irrevent

It's called a toroid. But I do appreciate your sentiments. I also find wrapping 2 cor 0.75mm² 3 times through a 1" diameter hoop quite a challenge and very time consuming.

so it must be true that as you age your long term memory become better...

Quote:
oh don't forget you must use screened cable and as you have 240 and 24 v you must run 2 cables coz their electronics isn't up to it..

Yes, I agree, at our age memory can be very handicapping.

Age and memory are important -but so is good desgin

Quote:
you can power to the outside but to remove the (supplied) cable means you have to dismantle the indoor unit !!!!

Ouch - and I bet they're mighty ugly undressed !!

indeed. terminal cover firmly secured with TAPE the list of nasties is quite long...

Hmm, does sound like a bit of fidgeting but then most cassettes and underceilings are installed with wall mounted wired remotes anyway.

We went with the 'wireless remote option' in order to get away from using a wire. this is a two million house remember

We do this on Daikin occasionally where -through superior design -the 'wireless remote' becomes integral in the indoor unit.

Sadly Hitachi seem to be inferior in their quality of engineering (again) unable to engineer this.

Also the base unit was deemed too ugly that we had to fit it very low down on the wall by the radiator.

Stay with the same old s-h-i-t, hey? Sooo ESTJ!!

playing lets 'shoot the messenger' doesn't negate the fact that Hitachi are an inferior product which actually INCREASES installation time due to poorly thought out processes.

Another example.

the small floor standing has two keyhole slots for securing. Sadly they are inaccessable so the screws have to be 'slightly lose' inorder to fit the unit. however on a plasterboard wall they need to be tight to get a firm fix.

This meant that we had to dismntle the indoor unit in order to drill the fan scroll casing to gain access the srews to tighten them.

yet ANOTHER case of poorly designed equipment which whlist initially a lower purchase cost actually increased costs due to the need to carry out the above.

Another example of an estp

"I've had an idea -so it must be good."

"you've had an idea -which would have been good if I'd have had thought of it."

Therfore in order to convince a estp of the merits of an idea you have to let them somehow convince themselves that it was them who had actually thought of it in the first place which automatically transforms the idea into a good idea.


however none of this deflects from the issue -one that is studiously being avoided and indeed the 'deflecting' is showing up your obvious weekness in your arguement-

that Hitachi is an inferior product to Daikin .


cheers

richard

[Abe]

In the "end" it boils down to one single issue

Why was the Daikin guy so patronising and obnoxious to Marc ??

This is what started it all !!

Oooops, I should have kept quiet
Retreats back into my corner

[rbartlett]

In the "end" it boils down to one single issue

Why was the Daikin guy so patronising and obnoxious to Marc ??

This is what started it all !!

Oooops, I should have kept quiet
Retreats back into my corner

Abe I think you have the wrong end of the stick. The main issue that has made us re-visit our commitment to Daikin UK is the fact that they (the various salesmen(women) lied to us regarding their commitment to us as a company kept us waiting ,then lied again....

The fact that they -Daikin sales dept-consider Marc an irrelevance is not an issue (except to Marcs ego but he can always come here for a 'massage';-).

We all believe we're far more important than we actually are -however some struggle to come to terms with it.

However when I spoke to a guy during this issue (a different dept) I asked for an email and got it straight away with exactly the information I asked for so it was not all bad.

We also had a Daikin certificate which would have done what we needed and solved the issue but we lost it. So we do have some blame here too...

I understand Daikin UK laid off quite a few staff and they were all afraid to put their head above the parapit in case it got shot off.

The salesman who disappeared to America came back and sorted it and suddenly everything went back to normal and the level of commitment returned to acceptable levels.

However my main concerns of poor delivery was proved to be true as we were promised a delivery that was missed , we were then promised the next day -that too was missed I phoned the sales dept and then the sales guy said

"well, actually our computer system is completely shot and we don't know what we have downstairs let alone when you'll get it"

Hence the 6 Hitachi splits.(it was a Daikin quote and order)

So the damage is done and we are now Space air boy's.

I have known Space for many many years and consider them to be a good company -apart from their acounts who are a real p.i.t.a. for late payment -but 'hey' that's why Neil's a millionaire !!

it's interesting that I'm considered the one reluctant to change but it was me who said we should go to Space long before this issue arose and the reluctance wasn't mine...

cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

I refer you back to my statement

Hitachi are inferior to Daikin.

I gave examples-

design
construction
wiring
accessories
installation

in return you have offered nothing of relevance.

You seem unable to keep on topic -which is something we used to see in alt.hvac when posters were unable to actually back up their argument with facts so try to smokescreen their way out...

I await your on topic reply


cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

That's what I mean about ESTJ's Buying Daikin from Space Air rather than Daikin themselves constitutes a bold change. For me this is called "Comfort by Stagnation".

a very strange reply

we wanted to use daikin because we all agreed they were the best (for us-then)

I suggested that due to the up and coming depot changes we should investigate Space as an alternitve supplier.

Nothing was done because Paul was 'such a good guy' and Daikin UK were great (then)

So I suggest change and because I was right to be concerned my idea is -now-scorned

this is classic estp response

my idea good
your idea -not good unless it's my idea

cheers

richard

[Dave Goodings]

1) If we ask them to provide a letter stating that they have confidence in us as a competent HVACR company they ask you what Daikin training have you had? Firstly, let's get real, what the **** can Daikin teach me apart from a few banal specifics about their product like fault codes and accessories compatibility etc? Secondly, Daikin training is not the only source of HVACR training available in the UK or the world and nor is their training definitive of UK or global HVACR training and by this observation their training is an irrelevance with regards to the matter of my company's technical competence

1)Marc Why would you want a letter off Daikin stating they have confidence in you as your work should speak for itself?

2)Also do you not think Daikin where massaging your ego and wallet by saying they would go on your courses?
good sales technique!!

3) Daikin would surely not give out letters stating their confidence in you just in case you fxxked up leaving them wide open to be sued/ bad press etc!!

regards
Dave

[rbartlett]

Richard, I've already replied to your comments. You're thinking like an American, like a creationist. You've decided your stance against Hitachi before you even looked at them and now you seek any excuse, ad hoc fashion, to condemn them. The comments you've made refer to minor differences.

I did not see the need to change as Daikin are the best.

There are not many makes that I haven't had first hand experience of installing wise

(purely off the top of my head)

qualitair
mastair
prestair
calder
airdale
carrier
delchi
toshiba
fujitsu
LG
amcor
airwell
mitsubishi
rheem
condor husion
Daikin
goodman
trane
york
panasonic

now Hitachi

As regards 'minor differences' of course all splits are simular it's the minor differences that 'make the difference'

However Hitachi offer a few systems that Daikin don't ie the internal condensing unit. otherwise they are a 'me to' product.

We were offered a freebie to maidenhead for 'training' and we all came away with the impression that whilst the diagnostics were slightly better on some systems basically they were just another split maker and only price would split us from daikin.

It must also be noted that we did not spec ONE hitachi system from then UNTIL the dispute with Daikin.Which proves the point as we would have gone over to Hitachi that day if they were so bloody great.

You complain about having to send two cables between indoor and outdoor but this is only when power it taken to the indoor unit, something that is not even an option with Daikin. Personally, I send my power to where ever I prefer and adjust my interconnect cable spec to complete the job... it's no big deal.

This is not correct on two counts

1 Daikin CAN be wired to the indoor as the interconnect consists of 3 cables L N +3

however in the outdoor unit there are 2x L and 2 x N terminals

ie power comes in and is immediately sent the indoor unit. therefore it is obvious that you can wire the power to the indoor unit as long as you double up with the interconnect on 1 and 2

no/ 3 remains as it should.

I know this works as I have done it.

2 some Hitachi indoor units are 24v -therefore if you require a condensate pump you must run a 240v supply indoors also.

thus no/1 negates your argument and no/2 proves mine.


cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

Dave, a client about to give us a £50,000.00 order was asking how he could know we were sufficiently competent. I think he asked fro a few references too, I understand we gave him 20 references. He was happy with the references but was just wanting to know Daikin's opinion of us

.

in fact the client was blown away by the list he got (no other tenderer was willing to give ANY references) ours was a list of 20 with a note that if he required more to just ask. He actually phoned a few and the response he got resulted in us being awarded the job

1) If we ask them to provide a letter stating that they have confidence in us as a competent HVACR company they ask you what Daikin training have you had? Firstly, let's get real, what the **** can Daikin teach me apart from a few banal specifics about their product like fault codes and accessories compatibility etc? Secondly, Daikin training is not the only source of HVACR training available in the UK or the world and nor is their training definitive of UK or global HVACR training and by this observation their training is an irrelevance with regards to the matter of my company's technical competence

the certificate system has been in place for many yeras. us asking for one without the 'training' was outside their guidelines.

Daikin is a japanese company which tend to pride themselves on rules and regulations and prefer that history dicates.
This combined with the upheaval and pauls absence caused the 'little local difficulty'

Some inside japanese companies abroard take a more pragmatic view but heaven help them if it all goes 'tits up'

Your technical competancy was not in question nor was your willingness to take them on.However this was irrevent as it was outside the rule for Daikin UK (and indeed Space as they are dictated to by Daikin in this matter) for issuing certification and therefore not done.

The actual issuing of their certificate is no proof of anyone being a good installer,however the mere fact that they are doing something in the first place should be applauded.


However as I have said the lies and lies that Daikin UK gave us is totally unacceptable and for that reason alone our parting was inevitable and justifyable

cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

All I wanted was a letter stating an opinion on our company's technical competence. No certificate WANTED !!

Amounts to the same thing and as such outside their giudelines.

cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

You say so and then you simply go on to agree with me, merely paraphrasing what was implied

again you avoid the issue with word play rather than facts..it don't cut no ice 'fraid..

cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

So, if someone I know receives a letter of reference from me, the purpose of which is to aid them in finding a specific form of employment, they, by way of this letter, have also received from me, implicitly, a certificate representing the successful attendance and pass of all my training modules?

Now you really seem to be struggling to avoid the issue of Hitachi but I guess we all can now see you've lost that one so we shall go on to semantics if you prefer..

A reference will emcompass many things such as honesty integrity relability relevant dates and competance etc

Any training recieved may or may not be mentioned but should be covered by a certificate if possible as a separate letter

This certificate will be a letter of competance -ie such and such has attained a particular level of education in whatever the course was.

Maybe it's just an English thing then, a nation of muddled minds?

Ah and there in lies the rub. A lot of non English speaking people struggle with the nuances of my native language.

However I apologise if you struggle at times to comprehend simple English but you really really must tell me next time you naughty monkey

cheers

richard

[Dave Goodings]

Quote
So, if someone I know receives a letter of reference from me, the purpose of which is to aid them in finding a specific form of employment, they, by way of this letter, have also received from me, implicitly, a certificate representing the successful attendance and pass of all my training modules?

Maybe it's just an English thing then, a nation of muddled minds?

Marc Surely what you would give is a character reference as training modules is a completely seperate thing, which a new employer (may) or (may not) put much value on ( Not trying to devalue your courses as I have not attended them!!)

Regards
Dave G

[frank]

Certificates awarded by Daikin - or whoever - relate only to the holder being conversant with the manufacturers product training and, more often than not, having passed a simple written exam at the end of the product training course.
All of these courses relate only to technical nuances of each manufacturers models, control logic, compatability, controllability etc. and do not relate to basic HVACR training. It is stated by Space Air that anyone attending their training course should be knowledgeable in refrigeration basics.
Some of our employers have asked for written proof of competence in the product and we have merely forwarded the Daikin Product Training Certificates as proof, (or Hitachi, Toshiba, Mitsi, Fuji etc).
A letter or reference as referred to by Marc is indeed something different.

[rbartlett]

All I wanted was a letter stating an opinion on our company's technical competence. No certificate WANTED !!

might help if you had actually read what marc was after ;-)

Marc O'Brien
Moderator
Site Moderator : and general nice guy Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Rotherwick, Hampshire, UK
Age: 39
Posts: 1,862


Re: Daikin a/c units.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Daikin are the best. There is no manufacturer that is any where near as good. Some say that Mitsi is close but usually Mitsi are about 3 years behind Daikin.

who say's a leopard never changes his spots..??

Still it's all irrelevent now as the last bastion of his argument was 'Hitachi is quieter'

However after switching on the 4 wall mounts I noticed they are noisier.

of course you could say "ah it's just you being biased"

but this was verified by our other team of installers who when asked
"how do they rate against Daikin?"
both said unprompted "noisier than Daikin"

We used a couple of subbies to get the install going who have been installing for 10 years about the ease of install

one commented "didn't like them, too fiddly, more hassle -must be about price"

btw We couldn't turn on the ceiling mount as the condenser isn't available till the end of the month!!!


cheers

richard

[Krups]

i was wondering what all the entp and estp stuff was about....
so i found out and did a jung test and this is what came back.....
Introverted (I) 63.89% Extroverted (E) 36.11%
Intuitive (N) 51.22% Sensing (S) 48.78%
Thinking (T) 76.47% Feeling (F) 23.53%
Perceiving (P) 61.76% Judging (J) 38.24%

INTP - "Architect". Greatest precision in thought and language. Can readily discern contradictions and inconsistencies. The world exists primarily to be understood. 3.3% of total population.

not sure what my reactions are to that, or how i feel about them, but then i only answered how i feel at the moment, and that changes with the seasons...

interesting though

haha under favoured careers Assassin came up - nice and Slacker lol 6 weeks off wrk with a fractured wrist in my eyes is slacking...

[Krups]

i did read loads on it Marc...i will carry on when i have time, and take the test again in week or so, as it said, the more times u do it, and the more times the same types come back, the more accurate it is...
and i remember doing it ages ago, and the same type came back!
i read up a meaning of it on www.typelogic.com and its scarily accurate!
also i think it does depend truly on how ur feeling at that moment..
therefore bring back diff results...
but i guess some things would never change...

it would b nice to adopt the knowledge in ur (aswel as others on here) brain to enhance my cerebral being and help in my quote.... "INTPs thrive on systems. Understanding, exploring, mastering, and manipulating systems can overtake the INTP's conscious thought"

[Abe]

I did mine again.............istj
http://keirsey.com/personality/sjit.html

I think it about sums me up

[Jase]

Beware of the flare nuts on Hitachi!!
Dare I say anything else...

regards
Jase

[rbartlett]

[QUOTE]

Richard, this quote is from a pre-hitachi-seminar post. Until the Hitachi seminar all Hitachi kit I had come across was exceptional and the seminar gave me no reason to alter this opinion

.

so are daikin the best or not?
yes or no?

All the comments I've got about Hitachi kit, comments from abroad as well

oh the smell of desperation .....

, have only supported my original opinion on Hitachi kit

so are daikin the best?
yes or no?

So, I have to say that my initial reaction is indeed to question the possibility that your comments on the noise are possibly premeditated. I will have to hear for myself.

I already qualified my comments on this so I got it independently reaffirmed by our own fitters who have absolutely no axe to grind.

sadly this is another classic example of your

my idea -good
your idea -bad

approach to life..

cheers

richard

[techguy]

Some people hate change. Marc get him some asprin

[rbartlett]

Some people hate change. Marc get him some asprin

jeezuss not another one sucking up..marc your little harem is growing !!

cheers

richard

[rbartlett]

Ssshhh, I can't comment right now, Paul (our Daikin Rep) is sitting here with us. We're mostly talking about his year in America.

Richard just can't stand change, once he's committed to an idea it is eternally the only good idea.

But we're talking to Paul about where we can find a good sales rep like himself for our growth next year

from your comments i take your lack of engagement to be a complete capitulation

many thanks and rightly so.



cheers

Richard

[rbartlett]

Lol, are Daikin the best, yes or no?

Ask the BBC to ask the people of Britain whether Daikin are the best? I'm not an authority on the matter, however, the people might be. After all, they voted Lady Di the third best Britain that ever lived - and rightly so

this is getting worse

not only do you now think you're not an authority on all things refrigeration anymore but think the great British public actually know better than you !!



cheers

richard

[Sipho]

This is a great thread, although it's a pity Richard doesn't start his sentences with capital letters.

It's almost like Marc is talking to a 3rd person about Daikin the company and Richard is talking to a 4th person about Daikin the Kit.

[Thermophysics]

Nice observation, Sipho. I also agree with the remarks concerning capital letters. ("or the lack of" as the more superfluous Brit would say).

I've already pulled Richard up in another thread for faulty thinking so no more comments from me for now.

[tonto]

This thread is getting more interesting by the minute........

[techguy]

Hi Richard,
Firstly I don,t ****ing suck up to anybody secondly what the **** are u on this thread has gone on long enough if u and Mark have a problem then meet up and sort it out.
You are just another Diakin looser who has been on top of the heap for years now new manufacturers are coming into the market taking more and more of Diakins share and showing the myth that has been perpetuated by Diakin that there the best is exactly that a myth. if you are worried about a few cables and wraping a wire around a magnet then it brings into question your ability not the quality of the product.
:-)
T

[smileypete]

Beware of the flare nuts on Hitachi!!
Dare I say anything else...

regards
Jase

Hi,

Why is that Jase?

cheers,
Pete.

[MRcoolingMAJIC]

You are just another Diakin looser who has been on top of the heap for years now...

Lol, I think this man is very cleverly sneeking in support for Daikin.