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  1. #151
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!



    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    there are a many great ideas, that are ideals, but most just do not work in practice, because our human nature causes to strive for change. We attempt to evolve to make what we think is a better life.
    What is right or wrong is only a perception in time and location.
    Hmmm

    much food for thought with the last verse especially 'Mad'

    R's chillerman


    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  2. #152
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Gary, the problem with humans is our absolute hubris and arrogance. It is a fact that as individuals, can come up with amazing ideas, philosophical and technical, but as a group we, like most animals, have a herd mentality and lack wisdom to see the effects of our actions. (Example...People say advertising doesn't affect them so why is there an industry...we are easily duped (yes, I really need that Caddy Escalade to move my one kid to school))

    The idea that we can separate ourselves from the rest of the world we live in, make all sorts of changes to it (which we do, often without concern or awareness) and expect that at the end of the day, the steak and beer we enjoy now, we will be able to enjoy 20 years down the road is ludicrous.

    There is too many of us, 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more), Almost every disease is on the rise. And we don't think we have an effect????????

    We NEED to respect other animals and we need to realize we are not omnipotent....we need wisdom and it is in short supply.....and....we need to stop idolizing our idiology
    Well put Mr Mike

    especially the bold type...100% with you on that one Mate

    also the fish one is another good point, we are just take take taking and if we carry on like this there will be nothing left for future generations

    there needs to be fish farms for all we eat and let the sea have a chance to recover, as its not just the fish we take on the decline but the natural feeders of these and the next in the food chain and onwards

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  3. #153
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Who said we didn't have any effect? Everything affects everything else.

    Laws are not the answer. Persuasion begets allies, coercion begets enemies.
    So true mate, in every sense.....every action has a reaction

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  4. #154
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    What is right or wrong is only a perception in time and location.
    Morality cannot be subjective.

    Imagine a world where everyone is born color blind. You would mention color, and everyone would say, "Huh?????"

    Similarly, the very concept of morality must have it's basis in human instinct or you would mention morality, and everyone would say, "Huh?????"

    The very concept of morality cannot exist without an objective basis and that basis must be instinctive.

    When attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions. When attacked by an animal, we make no such moral value judgement. Morality is a human thing.
    Last edited by Gary; 23-09-2011 at 10:36 PM.

  5. #155
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Morality cannot be subjective.

    Imagine a world where everyone is born color blind. You would mention color, and everyone would say, "Huh?????"

    Similarly, the very concept of morality must have it's basis in human instinct or you would mention morality, and everyone would say, "Huh?????"

    The very concept of morality cannot exist without an objective basis and that basis must be instinctive.

    When attacked by a fellow human, we automatically judge the morality of his actions. When attacked by an animal, we make no such moral value judgement. Morality is a human thing.
    Gary, you are absolutely right. The only problem is that for every human, there is a different definition of morality and so you will never get consensus on the LAWS that all will deem necessary. This is why we must compromise, swallow our pride for some of those laws and move on. As I said before, humility is lacking amongst us humans.
    Pride goeth before a fall, as they say

  6. #156
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Gary, you are absolutely right. The only problem is that for every human, there is a different definition of morality and so you will never get consensus on the LAWS that all will deem necessary. This is why we must compromise, swallow our pride for some of those laws and move on. As I said before, humility is lacking amongst us humans.
    Pride goeth before a fall, as they say
    It's not that complicated. Basic laws enjoy near universal acceptance. As we add laws that are less clearly just, those laws become increasingly difficult to enforce and foster a culture of violence and discontent.

    There is a point where persuasion is more effective than coercion.

    You may have noticed that popular movements become less popular when they switch from persuasive tactics to coercive tactics. As soon as someone says, "Let's pass a law" it all goes downhill. Where there was token resistance, there is now very substantial and growing resistance. They have abandoned the very tactics which made them popular.

    Some people don't like having their minds made up for them.
    Last edited by Gary; 24-09-2011 at 04:20 PM.

  7. #157
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    All scientific bodies, like the IPCC, rely on national and university based people to do the research (they are doing it anyway so why not) and this is the way most research that is not "product based for market" research is handled and is why the corporate agenda must be kept out of universities (a loosing proposition from what I see). By their very nature universities are supposed to train students to think objectively in the face of those who wish to co-opt them, be that business, govt or media or religion.

    The IPCC doesn't need to pay anyone when they are doing the work as a doctoral thesis or as a prof. Information gained is verified through peer review (and a lot of peer review, both adherents and detractors). All points are taken in account (except for creationism, I believe).

    What I ask you is this... our society goes through lots of changes (computers, new cars, airplanes, digital TV etc, etc,) most of which persuade or threaten us into parting with our money for the newest IPAD ir some such. Money is made on this all the time. Is it fear mongering to persuade people that it is for their betterment to do things that pollute less, eat better foods, and look outward at the planet rather than just inward at their own wants?
    Fear mongering is the method by which some are persuaded, I am 100% in favour of saving all the resouces we can and using them sparingly, I am 100% in favor of polluting less, I am 100% in favor of eating better foods and I am 100% in favor of looking at the planet as a whole living being. I am not in favor of making law's which force me to make these changes. I am skeptical about the "science". If the science is not good how will we know if the changes proposed will really help? and if it wont then why make the changes?

    Yes, there is money to be made in this. I put in solar systems and am into heat pumps partly for the profit but I would not do it if it were not of net gain to both the person and to the climate. I will not sell someone a massive SUV and i don't hear anyone here arguing the necessity of a large SUV. There is no reason that doing good for the planet needs to be done without profit.

    Agreed, however if the science is there to support the industry then it may not be good science and if it is not then what?
    I cannot believe the theory was fabricated to support an industry, which didn't exist in the early days of global warming (actually 1000s of theories from 1000s of different people and places). That would take a massive conspiracy for little profit. What you may not know is that I have been in this business for 20 some years now and it has been slim pickings for most of that time. Unlike big oil, gas and nuc, environmental benign power gets less than 0.01% of the subsidies of the big boys so it is hardly a cash cow.

    Like I said above somewhere, the IPCC is a consensus organization. All the scientists agree on the written report. Many would go a lot further but must compromise and it is too big of a group to be taken over by one ideology.
    If many would go a lot further then it stands to reason that many are not in agreement, yes?

  8. #158
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    That is not true. They are in agreement on the text of the report but if we are looking at a 1000L container and I said it was at least a 500L container and you said it was at least an 800L container, could we not agree that it was at LEAST a 500L container. It satisfies both our statements.

    That is what is happening every time a joint statement comes out of the G8 or G20 or, in this case, the statement says that the earth is rising by 1C over some time period, someone else might think it is 2C but if it is worded "at least 1C" it good for both parties. Consensus....these guys disagree a lot on the degree of change but not the fact that it is changing.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Mike,
    I see your point, your are a very eloquent debator and your arguments are very persuasive, I would like to say you have convinced me, however I do not yet have a concensus.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I have learnt that many of us have a different opinion weather correct or not but I have also learnt that if you disagree with one certain member then your defiantly wrong

    I have my opinion weather it is correct is off question but what I do know it is my own hence I will stand by it

  11. #161
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    I have learnt that many of us have a different opinion weather correct or not but I have also learnt that if you disagree with one certain member then your defiantly wrong

    I have my opinion weather it is correct is off question but what I do know it is my own hence I will stand by it
    What are laws if not the ultimate attempt to nullify the opinions of others? Once laws are passed, your opinion doesn't matter. What better way to say I am right and you are wrong than to pass a law which forces my will upon you?
    Last edited by Gary; 27-09-2011 at 05:48 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    What are laws if not the ultimate attempt to nullify the opinions of others? Once laws are passed, your opinion doesn't matter. What better way to say I am right and you are wrong than to pass a law which forces my will upon you?
    Well said Gary.

  13. #163
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Yes well said
    But. The law is what it is and I must be right because I am obviously wrong again
    Last edited by Quality; 27-09-2011 at 07:51 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    Yes well said
    But. The law is what it is and I must be right because I am obviously wrong again

    Are you right about being wrong?... or wrong about being right?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    That is the question
    Well questioned

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Now we are getting into semantics.

    I think the bigger question here "are we having a big, negative effect on the planet or not". If you can say with absolute authority, NO, and can absolutely prove it, there is no need for a law or regulation banning something (like R22).

    If you cannot prove it and there is lots of evidence supporting the negative effects of "X" product then there is grounds for a regulation or law against it use.

    How many people died from asbestosis before we banned it in the western world. Stupidly, Canada still mines and sends it to third world countries where bags of it are opened by people without masks. These people last 5 years working before they can't work and die of the effects. "But if you ban it (the business owner says), my ability to make money on it is reduced and that is against my rights......"

    What is right?... difficult question

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Effects on the planet are neither negative nor positive. The planet doesn't care what we do, one way or the other. Obviously, you are not opposed to semantic games.

  18. #168
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    "But if you ban it (the business owner says), my ability to make money on it is reduced and that is against my rights......"
    Is that a direct quote?... or did you make that up?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I have heard a hundred times business men saying that a regulation is hampering their ability to grow their business and create jobs. You have to go back to economics 101 to know that they are in business to make a profit. Period. There are no ethics courses in most MBA schools and ethics has little role to play in business, according to the business courses I took years ago and echoed by MOST business men I have listened to (and I listen to a lot of them). That is not to say they they live in a vacuum but gaining money is the most important thing to them. Especially in the USA where free enterprise is more of an ideology than anywhere else.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    So... you made that up?

  21. #171
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Do you want an actual quote? You will accept nothing else? I can't get one from every business man so....

    No, I didn't make it up. No BS

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It's a strawman setup.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    For those who don't know what a strawman argument is: You misstate your opponent's position (set up the strawman) and then debate against that false position (knock down the strawman).

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Never heard of a strawman argument but discussions do change direction sometimes.

    Enter the healthcare argument (again). Is the reason the American right is against a govt insurance plan because it is against government or because it impedes their ability to make a profit (and a big one at that)?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Never heard of a strawman argument but discussions do change direction sometimes.

    Enter the healthcare argument (again). Is the reason the American right is against a govt insurance plan because it is against government or because it impedes their ability to make a profit (and a big one at that)?
    You say you have never heard of a strawman argument... and then you set up yet another strawman.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Very good.....back to the original thought then... I am having a hard time picturing life in your legal utopia. I think I would not want to leave the house for fear of getting sued. It is like hitting a mosquito with a baseball bat.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Utopia?... who said anything about Utopia?

  28. #178
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Well it seems like you believe your vision is closer to utopia than the current system

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Closer to Utopia? You just can't help yourself, can you?
    Last edited by Gary; 28-09-2011 at 02:34 AM.

  30. #180
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I think you will find that most people have a romantic longing for utopia (their own definition of it). Sometimes is it just looking at the past through rose coloured glasses and believing it was better than now. It seldom was. Much as I remember fondly filling the old StratoChief with 10 of my friends (some in the trunk or boot to you brits) and going to the drivein, I've almost forgot the stench of the old cars lead laden exhaust.......rose coloured glasses.

  31. #181
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Closer to Utopia? You just can't help yourself, can you?
    You are right, I can't help it.

    But it does lead into the earlier point. We are human, and we always have to find a way to fix things or change them even if they are not busted. Example... we have been through 4 or 5 police chiefs in the last 20 years and the new one is implementing changes that the one first one dumped cause it didn't work. He is doing it to make his own mark, that's all.

    The point is that we can't help tinkering with peoples lives and our rights (real or imagined) infringe on others and vise versa so how are you going to design a set of laws and regs that work for you and won't get others upset....and are flexible enough to react to things like changes to the environment.

    Again....big question

  32. #182
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    I think you will find that most people have a romantic longing for utopia (their own definition of it). Sometimes is it just looking at the past through rose coloured glasses and believing it was better than now. It seldom was. Much as I remember fondly filling the old StratoChief with 10 of my friends (some in the trunk or boot to you brits) and going to the drivein, I've almost forgot the stench of the old cars lead laden exhaust.......rose coloured glasses.
    And then there are those who envision a perfect world where everyone is forced into submission.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    You are right, I can't help it.

    But it does lead into the earlier point. We are human, and we always have to find a way to fix things or change them even if they are not busted. Example... we have been through 4 or 5 police chiefs in the last 20 years and the new one is implementing changes that the one first one dumped cause it didn't work. He is doing it to make his own mark, that's all.

    The point is that we can't help tinkering with peoples lives and our rights (real or imagined) infringe on others and vise versa so how are you going to design a set of laws and regs that work for you and won't get others upset....and are flexible enough to react to things like changes to the environment.

    Again....big question
    I have no problem at all with changes, so long as they are not forced on people. If you can't get your way with persuasion, then you can't get your way. If you can't sell your ideas, then too bad.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Wow 4 pages! Seems like a troublesome industry we have!
    I eke out a living, and go home. I drink on paydays (hopefully every day is a pay day).
    No trouble here except for not getting paid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    If you can't get your way with persuasion, then you can't get your way. If you can't sell your ideas, then too bad.
    Reminds me of debating issues on internet forums. No hope of anyone being persuaded into changing their opinion, so why bother.
    Last edited by paul_h; 28-09-2011 at 03:14 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Mike,
    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder, for example wine, is it good for you or bad for you? both maybe true(at least that is what the science suggests) so do we pass a law saying you must drink at least one glass of wine a day "after all the evidence suggest's that it is good for you" and there is a concensus amoung scientists, and since the government controls the healthcare system and we want everyone to be healthy, we must do this for the good of the people or do we ban wine from the planet because if you drink too much too often it is bad for you and usually those around you and may cause depression which will cause health care costs to rise and so for the good of the people we must ban wine..

    ...Orrrr do we leave the people to decide for themselves whether they will drink wine in moderation in excess or not at all?

    Which way shall it be then Mike?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett View Post
    Mike,
    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder, for example wine, is it good for you or bad for you? both maybe true(at least that is what the science suggests) so do we pass a law saying you must drink at least one glass of wine a day "after all the evidence suggest's that it is good for you" and there is a concensus amoung scientists, and since the government controls the healthcare system and we want everyone to be healthy, we must do this for the good of the people or do we ban wine from the planet because if you drink too much too often it is bad for you and usually those around you and may cause depression which will cause health care costs to rise and so for the good of the people we must ban wine..

    ...Orrrr do we leave the people to decide for themselves whether they will drink wine in moderation in excess or not at all?

    Which way shall it be then Mike?
    And before you make that decision, don't forget to factor in all of the rampant crime and violence that occurred due to alcohol prohibition nearly a century ago.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It's my round my shout and I. Am paying that's my choice
    My opinion is that I will get the next round also , the reason is because I can

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    It's my round my shout and I. Am paying that's my choice
    My opinion is that I will get the next round also , the reason is because I can
    I don't always understand the lingo from across the pond, but if I read this post correctly then I am drinking with Quality!!!

  39. #189
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    We seem to read the same lingo

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    We seem to read the same lingo
    Cheers!
    Emmett

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett View Post
    Mike,
    Evidence is in the eye of the beholder, for example wine, is it good for you or bad for you? both maybe true(at least that is what the science suggests) so do we pass a law saying you must drink at least one glass of wine a day "after all the evidence suggest's that it is good for you" and there is a concensus amoung scientists, and since the government controls the healthcare system and we want everyone to be healthy, we must do this for the good of the people or do we ban wine from the planet because if you drink too much too often it is bad for you and usually those around you and may cause depression which will cause health care costs to rise and so for the good of the people we must ban wine..

    ...Orrrr do we leave the people to decide for themselves whether they will drink wine in moderation in excess or not at all?

    Which way shall it be then Mike?

    I'm with you and Quality, cheers and the next round is on me.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    And before you make that decision, don't forget to factor in all of the rampant crime and violence that occurred due to alcohol prohibition nearly a century ago.
    The last thing i want to do is have prohibition again. hell, i like the Italian idea of teaching the young tikes what wine is about at meals without the stupid teenage binge drinking that goes on here because we are oh so puritan.....yea right

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    I'm with you and Quality, cheers and the next round is on me.
    http://news.yahoo.com/nasa-data-blow...192334971.html

    Mike,
    I thought you might like a little something to read with that cold beer. Quality, you too may be interested in this article.

  44. #194
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Interesting article but check out the author and go to his credentials. He writes for a think tank that states as its mandate;

    "Heartland's mission is to discover, develop, and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems. Such solutions include parental choice in education, choice and personal responsibility in health care, market-based approaches to environmental protection, privatization of public services, and deregulation in areas where property rights and markets do a better job than government bureaucracies."

    Organizations (left or right) that are disposed to a particular ideology and are trying to move people to its way of thinking must have their publications excepted with skepticism. We have a similar "think tank" here called the Frasure Institute. Its mandate to promote a right wing free market agenda. No problem except that newspapers and TV will report on some of their research conclusions without telling the public of the organizations mandate.

    Case in point....the Frasure Institute put out a paper rating the quality of education in all the Canadian provinces. all the provinces with conservative governments were on the top of the list and at the bottom were the provinces with more liberal governments. Unfortunately, the real numbers were mixed and there was no correlation between the leaning of the government (in this case) and the quality of the education. The author just wanted the quick soundbite that will influence the casual listener...

    Don't believe everything you read......now I need a beer.

  45. #195
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    So... in your opinion, Heartland Institute is the same as Frasure Institute, therefore because you don't believe what Frasure Institute says, this somehow damages the credibility of Heartland Institute.

    And then to prove your point, you bring up a totally irrelevant paper written by Frasure Institute... not Heartland Institute.

    And this makes sense to you?

  46. #196
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    As far as I'm concerned, his credibility vanished when he characterized others as "alarmist". This in itself doesn't mean he is right or wrong... but it tells me he is biased.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I wondered why he would say Alarmist if he was not trying to be alarmist. He is not even subtle in his writing. The bias is very obvious.

    I think the two think tanks went to the same school, methods are similar and have the same stated goals. An ideologically based organization wouldn't write a report or article that It doesn't believe in, IMO.

  48. #198
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The comparison of the two only shows the similarities. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. They have the same stated beliefs.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    The comparison of the two only shows the similarities. It doesn't matter what the subject matter is. They have the same stated beliefs.
    You showed the stated beliefs of Heartland, but not the stated beliefs of Frasure. How is that a comparison?

    And even if their beliefs are identical, that says nothing about their individual credibility.
    Last edited by Gary; 30-09-2011 at 12:05 AM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Here is the first part of the Fraser Institute mission statement (it is longer than this):

    Our vision is a free and prosperous world where individuals benefit from greater choice, competitive markets, and personal responsibility.
    Our mission is to measure, study, and communicate the impact of competitive markets and government interventions on the welfare of individuals.


    It is a bit more subtle than the Heartland statement, I think, but if you look at the speakers, researchers and mentors, and listen to interviews on the radio (as I do) it becomes obvious that they are quite similar.

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