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  1. #101
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!



    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Should I have to pay to have the road wiped down after someone went through the windshield?
    Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.

    A ridiculous question merits a ridiculous answer.
    Last edited by Gary; 21-09-2011 at 10:22 PM.



  2. #102
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    what if you die before you get a chance to sue
    Then your family can sue.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.
    Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.

    In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing

  4. #104
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Then your family can sue.
    and if I have no family or they cannot afford to sue?

  5. #105
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Yes... you personally should be required to bear all cleanup costs.

    A ridiculous question merits a ridiculous answer.
    Who do you think pays to clear up the mess then?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Then your family can sue.
    And what if your family or yourself cannot afford to sue, or for that matter you are able to sue but Mr BIG can afford the nations top lawyers? Americans I believe sue more than anyone else by a wide margin, yet it does not seem to make things safer in the USA nor does it seem to stop people from taking advantage of others. It is not the solution to everything.

    And the time is long past for me to sue McDonalds. I decided it was not worth the emotional energy and bad karma.

    Laws help to bridge the divide between rich and poor and so does mediation (when it is available)

  7. #107
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.

    In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing
    Well said Master Bartlett...

  8. #108
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Your logic ran out of road very quickly....Sadly for all some of us who have hippie backgrounds life gets in the way. To live a true Communist way would be utopia. Sadly as history shows: human frailties committed that experiment to the dustbin of failed ideologies. Your dream of a lawless yet lawful society is yet another ideal doomed to failure.

    In certain societies your ideals worked. Native Indians being an obvious one. However they had plenty yet lived a simple life. Those days are long gone and society has become what it is and we are well past the point of no return.. Still the world loves a daydream believer as they used to sing
    Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.

  9. #109
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.
    You obviously don't know what Communism actually is: rather how it has been (mis)intrepreted..

    Communist idealogy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    You obviously don't know what Communism actually is: rather how it has been (mis)intrepreted..

    Communist idealogy

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
    And you obviously have not read my posts... or perhaps you were referring to yourself as a communist?
    Last edited by Gary; 21-09-2011 at 11:19 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Communist/ Fascist, nearly the the same thing and we are not quite there yet but America is slowly moving towards Fascist or theocratic-fascist rule as I see it.

    If you took all the Europeans out of Europe and replaced them with a half Billion Americans with their current ideologies(left and right), there would be war within a couple of years. There is a reason why the political climate in most American cities is more left wing than in the suburbs......people need each other and to get along in density, you need to compromise. Not in Texas or anywhere else where there is room for people to get away from everyone else but when you cannot get away, you must learn to live with people and that means laws.

    Britons have the right to common passage across privately owned tracts of land for a reason...
    They prevent people from building on every single piece of property (unlike over here) for a reason....

    a million other laws that are for the common good and keep some harmony....

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    And you obviously have not read my posts... or perhaps you were referring to yourself as a communist?

    I did, as you stated communism was a form of dictatorship -which it plainly isn't. (Not if you truely understand what communism is,which by your own admission you don't)

    We all should be communists> "For the people by the people" is communism in it's purest form... How ironic is that?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Communist/ Fascist, nearly the the same thing and we are not quite there yet but America is slowly moving towards Fascist or theocratic-fascist rule as I see it.

    If you took all the Europeans out of Europe and replaced them with a half Billion Americans with their current ideologies(left and right), there would be war within a couple of years. There is a reason why the political climate in most American cities is more left wing than in the suburbs......people need each other and to get along in density, you need to compromise. Not in Texas or anywhere else where there is room for people to get away from everyone else but when you cannot get away, you must learn to live with people and that means laws.

    Britons have the right to common passage across privately owned tracts of land for a reason...
    They prevent people from building on every single piece of property (unlike over here) for a reason....

    a million other laws that are for the common good and keep some harmony....
    There has never been a true communist country so I don't believe you can make the connection. If you said Socialist/Fascists were close then I'd agree. For example Hitler was a left wing socialist who was called a right wing fascist

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I admitted no such thing... and communism calls for the majority to dictate the lives of the minority.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I admitted no such thing... and communism calls for the majority to dictate the lives of the minority.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Communist?... just another form of dictatorship.
    Err yes you did..Unless you don't understand what a dictatorship is either?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Err yes you did..Unless you don't understand what a dictatorship is either?
    I use a much broader definition of dictatorship.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    There has never been a true communist country so I don't believe you can make the connection. If you said Socialist/Fascists were close then I'd agree. For example Hitler was a left wing socialist who was called a right wing fascist
    Very true but I was referring less to the theoretical definition of Communism than that of the "state capitalist" country of the the USSR and their brand of communism. Also, where in the USSR, everything was state owned, Nazi's made pacts with the large industrialists and didn't nationalize industries under their own name (although they were controlled by the state to some extent for the upcoming war).

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Gents

    1. you's blow me away with your vast knowledge & in depth detail of this confusing (to me) subject

    2. you are all good friends of mine....please please keep it cool...I am very interested in your views here, very educational to me, but sad to see friends of mine getting so heated, we all have different views & none of us can agree with everyone all the time, but it does not mean , anyone is wrong or right.....hope you's can all shake hands tonight & continue to educate me (& others) without the heat

    Thanx in advance

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Those who advocate controversial (grey area) laws naively believe those laws will be obeyed and everyone will live happily ever after. Sorry, that's not how it works.

    The more controversial the law, the more likely it will be disobeyed.

    You can put a gun to someone's head and force them to obey you, but when your back is turned they will disobey you... and if they think they can get away with it they will strangle you in your sleep.

    Whenever one person/group is able to dominate another person/group it is personal and heated... especially for those on the losing end who must choose between slavery or punishment.
    Last edited by Gary; 22-09-2011 at 06:37 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The thing that confuses me with communism is 'if' its for the good of everyone to be all equal with no higher/lower classes, everyone is treated the same

    Then why do the two countries that first come to mind R & C ...have such appalling records of human rights ???

    Why do they execute (murder) their own ??? ( is this right ??? does anyone have the right to take life ??? ) & one I have seen recently even makes the other prisoners carry this out

    Rather than allow everyone to be equal, it appears to me that they have even more laws, with far harsher punishments and the harshest of all if your dare speak out against the regime that run the country

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The grey area laws are the most difficult to enforce, leading their advocates to call for increasingly harsher punishments... until they end up murdering their own.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    By which are you referring to (grey area laws) laws that say you are not aloud to object to who & how the country is run ???

    Or am I getting lost here again mate ?
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The grey area laws are those laws where the offending action is not clearly harmful to others.

    Virtually everyone would agree that such things as murder, rape and robbery should be illegal.

    Such things as speaking out against the powers-that-be (or for that matter not wearing a seat belt) are not as clearly wrong and many would view such laws as unjust.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Ok with you now

    What about execution Gary, I think thats still active in your state ???

    Whats your views there, is this justified ??? Do you think we should not ???

    I dont get it & if I walk at night in the dark & tread on a snail/slug or anything else, I am not happy & feel I need to take better care where I walk, life is life to me & feel lucky to be part of the dominating creatures, and know could just as easily been born as something else & it could be me being trodden on
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It would depend upon the extreme severity of the crime and how absolutely certain I am that they are guilty. After they are executed, you can't say, "Oops, wrong guy" and release them. That said, some people are clearly a waste of skin.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    As to other creatures, the moral compact (I don't harm you and you don't harm me) only applies to humans.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    It would depend upon the extreme severity of the crime and how absolutely certain I am that they are guilty. After they are executed, you can't say, "Oops, wrong guy" and release them. That said, some people are clearly a waste of skin.
    I dont know, mate if I agree totally - for instance I watched the iraq leader hang, even though I do not agree with anything he did, I did not think it was right what happened & if I had the choice would have preferred to see him jailed for life, but then again looking at it from the other side, the people he had hurt then I think I would have been ok with it....& then when I think of the organisers behind the two towers, they should not be given mercy, So yeah the more I think about it I do agree, as long as it is certain they carried out the extremity

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    As to other creatures, the moral compact (I don't harm you and you don't harm me) only applies to humans.
    Thats another hard one for me as not harming others does not make certain they will not harm you...dogs come first in my world, they if brought up properly have the best morals, bitches more so than dogs, they will give you continued love & loylety and all they ask in return is food & exercise, a good bitch will defend you to the death, where as a dog will until they get flared and then they will flight...over the years I have taken two dogs off ex friends and decked a stranger in the street for kicking his dog, all animals even those I dont like get respect and I would not hurt any of them intentially, where as some humans like the one kicking his dog, ask for it, so maybe I have some double standards there, when I look back at the other quote and my response, but hey we would not be human if we were perfect

    R's chillerman

    ps: my pups attachedme pups.jpg
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

  28. #128
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    its all about opinion I agree with the dogs as they are as you say but older folk do not like others opinion if its different from their own we all will end up with a similar opinion
    Last edited by Quality; 22-09-2011 at 09:18 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    its all about opinion I agree with the dogs as they are as you say but older folk do not like others opinion if its different from their own we will end up with a similar opinion
    Hi Quality

    Dogs I can yak on all night about, so I best not

    I hear what you say about our elders, currently siting in the midle bracket here I try to keep up with the future (the younger Gen.) & try to see it from the past (the older Gen) I like the future as its always evolving as each generation goes by & I try to learn from the past.. The bit that makes me more past than future is change... many area's I like change especially technology/gadgets but I have noticed I really dont like change to what is the norm to me, the way I live my life in general, the natural me & most of all work, thats so hard to accept change, I am so set in my ways already that even though I dont agree with many recent events...I can see why some dont like that change... its just something we all need to get used to though... as its a cold hard fact of life, the younger generation are taking over all the time and with that comes change ! And without them and change we dont have a future

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Winning the lottery is change.

    A sharp stick in the eye is change.

    As you get older, you've gotten the sharp stick in the eye from those who promise change so many times that you start questioning whether it's change for the better or change for the worse.

    It's not enough to say people (older or otherwise) resist change. Exactly what change are we talking about?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I have a lot of time for animals, i sponsor an animal sanctuary and have a couple of rescue dogs and a half share in a pony! I find it easy to be compassionate for animals as even if they have harmed me i don' think they have the, inteligence is not the right word as they are as bright as they need to be, maybe ego is a better description, they don't have an ego that leads to the harm. No dog would bite you because it thought you disrespected it for example.
    I am working on having more compassion and understanding for my fellow humans as even when they harm me, even when its ego led, its also due to causes and conditions, in other circumstances we could have been friends, no person is inherantly bad (excepting people who have serious mental conditions and such and even here there are causes and conditions).

    I have respect for all forms of life, yesterday i got an odd look from a customer as i rescued a beetle that was walking about where it would likely get squished.

    Who knows i may well be a beetle next time round if i'm lucky enough

    Jon
    Mostly found in Oxfordshire, UK :)

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by monkey spanners View Post
    I have a lot of time for animals, i sponsor an animal sanctuary and have a couple of rescue dogs

    Jon
    Just a quickie and will come back to other posts tomorrow as now - bed/up early

    Top Man Jon....Respect

    R's chillerman
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    there are a many great ideas, that are ideals, but most just do not work in practice, because our human nature causes to strive for change. We attempt to evolve to make what we think is a better life.
    What is right or wrong is only a perception in time and location.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Winning the lottery is change.

    A sharp stick in the eye is change.

    As you get older, you've gotten the sharp stick in the eye from those who promise change so many times that you start questioning whether it's change for the better or change for the worse.

    It's not enough to say people (older or otherwise) resist change. Exactly what change are we talking about?
    Then again, always got time for Gary

    change - forum/fridge controllers analogue to digital/price of a pint/weather/waist size/seat belt law revoked/cheap ciggies in florida & milton keynes/end of world famine...practically anything mate...all change will make some happier than others and changes come a knocking wether we like them or not...and I have found most are not welcome to me

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Really? I have no problem with most changes.

    So... you must be older than me, right?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Really? I have no problem with most changes.

    So... you must be older than me, right?
    Is it possible to be older than you Gary

    Of all the people I know and of all the people I think I know
    you would be top of my list to sit down over a nice meal and have
    a real good talk.

    Your views and beliefs may differ from mine at times but you have a morral
    conviction and a sense of right and wrong that I completely, 100% agree with.

    I just don't always come up with the same conclusions as you but is that not what
    makes life great.

    We might not be totaly free to post everything on this site for obvious reasons
    but we can have an exchange of oppinions.

    All the best
    mate taz.

    Oh and Ps, regarding the death penalty I'm for it and against it.

    I would not be prepard to actualy kill sombody in cold blood.so how could I ask sombody to do that for me.....


    taz

    .

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    there are a many great ideas, that are ideals, but most just do not work in practice, because our human nature causes to strive for change. We attempt to evolve to make what we think is a better life.
    What is right or wrong is only a perception in time and location.
    Well put Mad,

    If I may make one addition to the "right and wrong" with convention.

    I hope you all know that this sort of discussion may tempt providence. (in this case providence = Mr. O'Brien)

    Quidvis Recte Factum Quamvis Humile Praeclarum.

    Latine dictum, sit altum videtur.

    Si hoc comprehendere potes, gratias age magistro Latinae.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Gary, the problem with humans is our absolute hubris and arrogance. It is a fact that as individuals, can come up with amazing ideas, philosophical and technical, but as a group we, like most animals, have a herd mentality and lack wisdom to see the effects of our actions. (Example...People say advertising doesn't affect them so why is there an industry...we are easily duped (yes, I really need that Caddy Escalade to move my one kid to school))

    The idea that we can separate ourselves from the rest of the world we live in, make all sorts of changes to it (which we do, often without concern or awareness) and expect that at the end of the day, the steak and beer we enjoy now, we will be able to enjoy 20 years down the road is ludicrous.

    There is too many of us, 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more), Almost every disease is on the rise. And we don't think we have an effect????????

    We NEED to respect other animals and we need to realize we are not omnipotent....we need wisdom and it is in short supply.....and....we need to stop idolizing our idiology
    Last edited by MikeHolm; 23-09-2011 at 11:45 AM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    There is too many of us, 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more), Almost every disease is on the rise. And we don't think we have an effect????????

    Mike,
    What makes you so certain that "WE" are the cause?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    Gary, the problem with humans is our absolute hubris and arrogance. It is a fact that as individuals, can come up with amazing ideas, philosophical and technical, but as a group we, like most animals, have a herd mentality and lack wisdom to see the effects of our actions. (Example...People say advertising doesn't affect them so why is there an industry...we are easily duped (yes, I really need that Caddy Escalade to move my one kid to school))

    The idea that we can separate ourselves from the rest of the world we live in, make all sorts of changes to it (which we do, often without concern or awareness) and expect that at the end of the day, the steak and beer we enjoy now, we will be able to enjoy 20 years down the road is ludicrous.

    There is too many of us, 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more), Almost every disease is on the rise. And we don't think we have an effect????????
    Who said we didn't have any effect? Everything affects everything else.

    Laws are not the answer. Persuasion begets allies, coercion begets enemies.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    ... 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more)...
    It kinda worked itself out, didn't it?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett View Post
    There is too many of us, 80% of fish in the see are gone (to the point now that some fisherman are selling lesser species as more desirable ones because the good ones are not there any more), Almost every disease is on the rise. And we don't think we have an effect????????

    Mike,
    What makes you so certain that "WE" are the cause?
    That is pretty simple. I assume that you are saying that climate change happens anyway. Yes it does, but never as fast as in the last century. Not even close. As I said above somewhere, the scientists make these conclusions by consensus therefore the reports must be middle of the road as you will always find someone who will believe things happen faster or slower. These scientists are from all disciplines, all countries with all ideologies and there is 10,000 or more of them.

    These people ARE the experts in their fields, why, if they put through thoroughly vetted reports, should we not believe them.....the only reason I can think of is that we just don't want to. Either because it is too hard for our fragile egos to accept that we capable of it or because it is not in our current financial interest to accept it (maybe we just pine for the good old days).

    Every report in the last 20 years stated the earth temp and co2 would rise by X amount and every subsequent one has said "oh I am sorry, it seems we were a bit low on the last prediction, it's rising more". And if there s dis agreement, it not about the basic understanding of climate change, it's about how much or how little the projections will be.

    So, yes I am certain that we are the cause. Remember, we are the ones who make tools, we are the ones who mine mineral, burn oil and make dams in China that cause local major seismic activity. Not the apes or the whales. We are also the only species who is capable of wiping out whole other species within a few years and we breed like rabbits, no.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    It kinda worked itself out, didn't it?
    Yes, but not the way I hoped it would.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    That is pretty simple. I assume that you are saying that climate change happens anyway. Yes it does, but never as fast as in the last century. Not even close. As I said above somewhere, the scientists make these conclusions by consensus therefore the reports must be middle of the road as you will always find someone who will believe things happen faster or slower. These scientists are from all disciplines, all countries with all ideologies and there is 10,000 or more of them.

    These people ARE the experts in their fields, why, if they put through thoroughly vetted reports, should we not believe them.....the only reason I can think of is that we just don't want to. Either because it is too hard for our fragile egos to accept that we capable of it or because it is not in our current financial interest to accept it (maybe we just pine for the good old days).

    Every report in the last 20 years stated the earth temp and co2 would rise by X amount and every subsequent one has said "oh I am sorry, it seems we were a bit low on the last prediction, it's rising more". And if there s dis agreement, it not about the basic understanding of climate change, it's about how much or how little the projections will be.

    So, yes I am certain that we are the cause. Remember, we are the ones who make tools, we are the ones who mine mineral, burn oil and make dams in China that cause local major seismic activity. Not the apes or the whales. We are also the only species who is capable of wiping out whole other species within a few years and we breed like rabbits, no.
    First of all, I find it hard to beleive that scientists or any other discipline can say with any certainty how fast the earths temperature has heated or cooled millions of years ago!

    Second many things are decided by concensus. In this country laws are passed by concensus, taxes are levied by concensus in the courts, people are found guilty by concensus. That dosent make them right, law's are repealed, taxes are reduced and sometimes convictions are overturned. were all of these people wrong? probably not, they made the best decision they could with the information they had at the time which the decision had to be made.

    Of these 10,000 or more scientist's, how many are actually experts in the field? not many they review the "information" and hypothesis presented by others from which they draw conclusions and maybe come to a concensus.

    Since from your way of thinking these supposed experts have determined that the earths temperature has never risen so fast as in the last century, why cant they predict with any certainty what the earths temperature will rise by?

    I do not want to believe or not believe what the "experts" say, I do however question all science which is not repeatable, if they cant reliably predict the future temperature what makes you think they can say what the rise was in the past, it dosent make sense! we must question all that is not proven and while these experts I am sure are as smart as they come, they too are human and therfore fallable, and subject to making the facts support there position.

    Correct me if I am wrong but I am of the understanding that scientist ask questions form a hypothesis and then set out to prove or disprove there hypothesis, if a government entity or for profit entity see's benefit in the conclusion going one way or another are these same experts not subject to persuasion?

    As to your lat point, what happened to the dinosaurs?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    If you "cannot believe" that scientists can tell accurately what the temps 10,000 years ago then I may agree with you but I believe that they can tell withing a good range what those temps were and that is enough to create a working theory. Very little in this natural world can be proven 100%. They have even just "possibly" repudiated E=MC2 over at CERN and are looking for independent tests to see if they are right. Scientists get it wrong too. BUT science doesn't usually work in absolutes but in processes and trends. Outcomes are checked constantly against the theory. If it doesn't play out....the theory gets adapted.

    If you want to know who the scientists are look up the IPCC and see who the contributing authors are. I can tell you they are atmospheric scientist, biologists, chemists, physicists, geologist etc, etc, etc from all over the world. I can tell you that you can tell how much CO2 there was in the atmosphere by doing ice core samples at the poles and they can go way way back in time. This is what they do and they are not here to BS people. They noticed trends long before anyone sent them out and the term "global warming" was not even coined yet.

    Laws and taxes have nothing to do with the natural order of the world as they are completely human constructs.

    Dinosaurs and comets as far as I know and that is the prevailing theory.

    The real point here is that we can wait for absolute proof of something we will be waiting a bloody long time and if we have our heads up our a**es that far for that long, we deserve to follow the dinosaurs. So much for our superior intellect.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Sitting on the fence here, i have to say that we, the human race, are the first on this planet to use the earths resources to our advantage. Somewhere in our evolution, we became the number one rulers here, able to determine the fate of this planet and all life forms that have to co-exist with us. Never before has there been as many cars on the roads or planes in the air sucking in the air we breathe. Sooner or later, there has to be a tipping point where nature says, enough and fights back..or not... and we die from our own ignorance. Thinking that somewhere out there in space, another species is looking in on us and saying... Nope! If they can't keep their back yard tidy, then we don't want them in ours..mike.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    They have even just "possibly" repudiated E=MC2 over at CERN and are looking for independent tests to see if they are right. Scientists get it wrong too.

    My point exactly!


    the·o·ry

       /ˈθiəri, ˈθɪəri/ Show Spelled[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA
    noun, plural the·o·ries. 1. a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.

    2.a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.





    The problem I have with all of this "global warming" is that the evidence isn't in yet and unlike you mike, I am unwilling to blindly follow the herd of 10,000 or more scientists because they have a "theory" about it. (I'm not from missouri but I may as well be). As you said it is possible that some scientists have found sub atomic particles which are moving faster then the speed of light, if it proves true that they have, then the "theory" E=MC2 will have been proven wrong!

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    So Mike,
    I went to the IPCC website and a couple of things caught my attention.

    1)The IPCC is a huge and yet very tiny organization. Thousands of scientists from all over the world contribute to the work of the IPCC on a voluntary basis as authors, contributors and reviewers. None of them is paid by the IPCC.

    If they are not paid by the IPCC then by whom?

    2)The IPCC is a scientific body. It reviews and assesses the most recent scientific, technical and socio-economic information produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of climate change. It does not conduct any research nor does it monitor climate related data or parameters.

    If they conduct no research then how do they verify the information they are reviewing is accurate?

    The point I am trying to make is this: There is an intire new industry spurned on by fear mongering about global warming, can we agree on that? if we can then can we also agree that those in a position to make all the money off of this new industry will stop at nothing to protect that? and if we can agree on that then can we agree that it is possible that the Theory was established to support the industry? and if we can agree on that then maybe we can agree that many, not all, of the reports provided to the ICPP are going to be in support of that theory. What do you think?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmett View Post
    So Mike,
    I went to the IPCC website and a couple of things caught my attention.

    1)The IPCC is a huge and yet very tiny organization. Thousands of scientists from all over the world contribute to the work of the IPCC on a voluntary basis as authors, contributors and reviewers. None of them is paid by the IPCC.

    If they are not paid by the IPCC then by whom?

    2)The IPCC is a scientific body. It reviews and assesses the most recent scientific, technical and socio-economic information produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of climate change. It does not conduct any research nor does it monitor climate related data or parameters.

    If they conduct no research then how do they verify the information they are reviewing is accurate?

    The point I am trying to make is this: There is an intire new industry spurned on by fear mongering about global warming, can we agree on that? if we can then can we also agree that those in a position to make all the money off of this new industry will stop at nothing to protect that? and if we can agree on that then can we agree that it is possible that the Theory was established to support the industry? and if we can agree on that then maybe we can agree that many, not all, of the reports provided to the ICPP are going to be in support of that theory. What do you think?
    All scientific bodies, like the IPCC, rely on national and university based people to do the research (they are doing it anyway so why not) and this is the way most research that is not "product based for market" research is handled and is why the corporate agenda must be kept out of universities (a loosing proposition from what I see). By their very nature universities are supposed to train students to think objectively in the face of those who wish to co-opt them, be that business, govt or media or religion.

    The IPCC doesn't need to pay anyone when they are doing the work as a doctoral thesis or as a prof. Information gained is verified through peer review (and a lot of peer review, both adherents and detractors). All points are taken in account (except for creationism, I believe).

    What I ask you is this... our society goes through lots of changes (computers, new cars, airplanes, digital TV etc, etc,) most of which persuade or threaten us into parting with our money for the newest IPAD ir some such. Money is made on this all the time. Is it fear mongering to persuade people that it is for their betterment to do things that pollute less, eat better foods, and look outward at the planet rather than just inward at their own wants?

    Yes, there is money to be made in this. I put in solar systems and am into heat pumps partly for the profit but I would not do it if it were not of net gain to both the person and to the climate. I will not sell someone a massive SUV and i don't hear anyone here arguing the necessity of a large SUV. There is no reason that doing good for the planet needs to be done without profit.

    I cannot believe the theory was fabricated to support an industry, which didn't exist in the early days of global warming (actually 1000s of theories from 1000s of different people and places). That would take a massive conspiracy for little profit. What you may not know is that I have been in this business for 20 some years now and it has been slim pickings for most of that time. Unlike big oil, gas and nuc, environmental benign power gets less than 0.01% of the subsidies of the big boys so it is hardly a cash cow.

    Like I said above somewhere, the IPCC is a consensus organization. All the scientists agree on the written report. Many would go a lot further but must compromise and it is too big of a group to be taken over by one ideology.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Really? I have no problem with most changes.

    So... you must be older than me, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    Is it possible to be older than you Gary

    Of all the people I know and of all the people I think I know
    you would be top of my list to sit down over a nice meal and have
    a real good talk.

    Your views and beliefs may differ from mine at times but you have a morral
    conviction and a sense of right and wrong that I completely, 100% agree with.

    I just don't always come up with the same conclusions as you but is that not what
    makes life great.

    We might not be totaly free to post everything on this site for obvious reasons
    but we can have an exchange of oppinions.

    All the best
    mate taz.

    Oh and Ps, regarding the death penalty I'm for it and against it.

    I would not be prepard to actualy kill sombody in cold blood.so how could I ask sombody to do that for me.....


    taz

    .
    I must be Mate

    An I reckon Taz is older still hiding his age

    R's chillerman
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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