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  1. #51
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!



    .

    It is not DEFRA that need to know it is City & Guilds or CITB. CITB in this case.

    If the course was run correctly you should have had a complaints procedure explained to you.

    If he had failed you and if his calculations were as you say then that would be evidence and
    the complaints procedure would highlight it.

    If you felt you were not given a fair hearing then, you can take it up with the governing body
    and they will assess the evidence and it will come to light.

    If the evidence has gone it is now your word against his.

    He will be told to check his information and as a training agency they will be told to improve standards
    by carrying out internal quality audits. These will show up the problem if the training company are
    realy bothered about standards and not just proffit.

    We all make mistakes and we hopfuly learn from them but if a company is giving the qualification
    away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.

    taz.

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  2. #52
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    .


    if a company is giving the qualification
    away they are insulting your knowledge and hard work and are doing nobody any favours.

    taz.

    .
    Exactly

    If you take the citb/cskills or c&g route they have no one to answer to apart from there own investigating colleagues - easily brushed under the carpet

    Where as when you take the F-Gas Support & Defra route, they both give you a reference number, do the complaining on your behalf and then ensure it is fully investigated and rectified

    Defra's area of authority includes environmental laws are adhered to including false qualification which can have an environmental impact

    in this case carbon footprint increase

    If we all set up our systems with 27 degress of superheat instead of 7, unlike us they dont really care about the compressors life but they do about the excessive use of electricity

    You and I , don't worry training bodies as we have no clout, Defra do

  3. #53
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Exactly

    If you take the citb/cskills or c&g route they have no one to answer to apart from there own investigating colleagues - easily brushed under the carpet

    Where as when you take the F-Gas Support & Defra route, they both give you a reference number, do the complaining on your behalf and then ensure it is fully investigated and rectified

    Defra's area of authority includes environmental laws are adhered to including false qualification which can have an environmental impact

    in this case carbon footprint increase

    If we all set up our systems with 27 degress of superheat instead of 7, unlike us they dont really care about the compressors life but they do about the excessive use of electricity

    You and I , don't worry training bodies as we have no clout, Defra do

    Just for the record, I am a trainer and an assessor in a training centre.

    I have always been open about this, trying to keep inpartial regarding differant
    issues that are raised somtimes.

    I'm not sure if you trust what I say, but

    City & Guilds and CITB would come down very hard on anyone who is proven,
    not to keep to standards.

    If CITB got an email from an individual stating that they experienced somthing
    that did not seem right they would and do look into it and it is done completely
    indipendently from the trainers themselves.

    Don't get me wrong, this system is not perfect and it can be improved but if
    sombody felt there was an issue it needs to be raised so it could deal with it.

    DEFRA would not know how to deal with this problem, nor are they empowered
    to do anything. It is a quality of training issue and must be addressed by the training
    agencies themselves.

    taz

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  4. #54
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by taz24 View Post
    Just for the record, I am a trainer and an assessor in a training centre.
    .
    Yes I was aware and have wondered since if you may have trained me...along time ago i quickly add

    Due to my recent experience of this trainer in question, I would never use a citb centre again

    I would only go one place ETS now known as ETW, even though its well out of my way and would these days due to my location include over night stays

    A dog only bites me once and then he's gone

  5. #55
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It should be remembered that 2079 is not a PHD in RAC, but only an absolute minimum requirement for handling refrigerant containing F-gas in an environmentally safe manner (you can go ahead blow yourself up with propane or kill a small village with ammonia). In comparison to many other industries, it's the lightest of requirements.

    In respect of the 'government with their hand in our pocket' comments, this is a European directive so everybody is in similar boats (the detail decided by member states), here there is no payment to the government - the training is even VAT exempt. I've said it here before, if you comply and you know somebody isn't - point the EPA in their direction (053) 91 60600 for Ireland and UK is posted by r.bartlett above. The standard instrument is now in law (SI278 see it here http://www.refrigerationskillnet.ie/...i279of2011.pdf) and the EPA have tendered and are appointing auditors for suppliers, contractors and end users of f-gases.

    I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.

    Oh and for 2079 there is no requirement to retrain or retest after a period and there is no provision in the Directive for it either. It is being revised but I don't believe there is any intention to change that. I understand that the CITB training is to be renewed periodically. As a matter of interest what is the industry view on the CITB v 2079... for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?

  6. #56
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by RSTC View Post
    .

    I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.

    for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?
    Hi RSTC

    Jack of all trades & Master of None, - just my 2 cents on that one

    The candidate to choose will be the most experienced/able, qualifications come second

    R's chillerman
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  7. #57
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by RSTC View Post
    It should be remembered that 2079 is not a PHD in RAC, but only an absolute minimum requirement for handling refrigerant containing F-gas in an environmentally safe manner (you can go ahead blow yourself up with propane or kill a small village with ammonia). In comparison to many other industries, it's the lightest of requirements.

    In respect of the 'government with their hand in our pocket' comments, this is a European directive so everybody is in similar boats (the detail decided by member states), here there is no payment to the government - the training is even VAT exempt. I've said it here before, if you comply and you know somebody isn't - point the EPA in their direction (053) 91 60600 for Ireland and UK is posted by r.bartlett above. The standard instrument is now in law (SI278 see it here http://www.refrigerationskillnet.ie/...i279of2011.pdf) and the EPA have tendered and are appointing auditors for suppliers, contractors and end users of f-gases.

    I know I'm preaching to the choir in this forum, but I am always amused by people (especially company bosses) who complain about 'other' trades presenting for training, who have not been investing in training themselves or their staff.

    Oh and for 2079 there is no requirement to retrain or retest after a period and there is no provision in the Directive for it either. It is being revised but I don't believe there is any intention to change that. I understand that the CITB training is to be renewed periodically. As a matter of interest what is the industry view on the CITB v 2079... for example if you had two interview candidates one with 10 years experience and a CITB and one with 10 years experience and 2079 - which would you pick?
    Hi RSTC.
    Do you guys in ireland have the same cit& guilds / citb.
    I ask because there is a huge difference between C&G Close book exam and CITB (Is it called J11 or something like that?) Which is open book.

    Simply put the C&G is harder to obtain or at least should be.
    Also why are you quoting Ammonia as it has nothing to do with these regs.
    Safe handling of Ammonia is a totally separate course.
    Basically holding an F Gas certificate is the industry starting point now!
    We all have to have it so having one does not make the engineer.
    What it does do however is make each and everyone of us in individually responsible.
    Try arguing after something environmentally went wrong on one of your jobs, that you did not know better.
    Ain't going to happen!

    We all got driving licenses then we learned from experience.
    F Gas is no different.
    OH! I would employ the one with the experience that best suits the job role being offered.
    Grizzly

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Yes I was aware and have wondered since if you may have trained me...along time ago i quickly add

    Due to my recent experience of this trainer in question, I would never use a citb centre again

    I would only go one place ETS now known as ETW, even though its well out of my way and would these days due to my location include over night stays

    A dog only bites me once and then he's gone
    I understand what you are saying about your center preference but the standard should be the same at every center and those who have been found to have a standard which is below the requirement should be brought to the attention of the certification body i.e. cskills of c&g

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    I understand what you are saying about your center preference but the standard should be the same at every center and those who have been found to have a standard which is below the requirement should be brought to the attention of the certification body i.e. cskills of c&g
    Yep, fair comment bud

    but citb J11 is 100% to pass & renewable every 5years

    c&g 2079 is 70-75% (i am told) & is for life just like 2078

    That bit dont add up for starters, or does it

    I have since found standards are the same at a place i often recommended untill I met someone they had trained and passed. The person I met spent just over half a day with me this week & now understands principles of ref. His actual words to me when I was getting ready to leave site was "I have learned more from you today than I did at that week long course"

    I am not no trainer(just an engineer), but I do try to simplify things when explaining & I have good patience with trainee's that show interest. I also keep going over one thing till it sinks in & dont move on to another till we both sure they have got it.

    Maybe I should be training the trainers my techniques, haha
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Hi Grizzly, Chillerman
    I'm not actually employing! I'm just posing the question which (of the two) is seen as better from an employers standpoint (all other things being equal).

    Re Irish qualifications, as it's a European directive any and all qualifications are acceptable over here so C&G is as accepted as say a german or polish qualification in the eyes of the EPA. FETAC is the Irish certification body, 5S0108 is the qualification code though I have yet to meet anybody who has done this as City & Guilds seems to be the training of choice.

    RE my comment regarding ammonia etc I have spoken to a number of people who were under the impression that 2079 is in some way the top of the education pyramid, therefore miffed when they hear stories of non-time-served/experienced guys successfully completing it. Understandably they feel that their existing qualifications and experienced is undermined if (in people's minds) 2079 is all that matters....

    my two cents is that F-Gas regs, especially the training element, is a big step forward for the industry and the environment and the people who pushed the matter like AREA, IoR, etc should commended for the work they have done (certainly not given out about) but now it's time to take a step back and remind the world that there is more to RAC than just handling F-Gas!

  11. #61
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by RSTC View Post
    the training is even VAT exempt.
    RSTC or TAZ .............. or Anyone else who knows

    Can you confirm this for me ?

    Point me in the direction of official site .... eg. .gov.uk

    As I have been charged VAT

    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    i encountered these same problems here in ireland there was electricians on my course who worked for air con companys they couldnt weld and barely use guages to pump down the simplest condensing units yet they still passed

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I think we would all agree that such courses teach people just enough to be dangerous. They are not a course in refrigeration, nor are they simply a material handling/transporting course. They teach too much and/or too little. They are neither here nor there. As such, they serve no useful purpose... and if anything are counter-productive.

    Those who receive these certifications believe they are qualified to work on the systems. The problem isn't that they don't know, it's that they don't know that they don't know.
    Last edited by Gary; 13-08-2011 at 05:03 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    just for the record the 2079 will not last forever as the 2078 did not nor the 2077. I have posted previously that the 2079 is based on BS EN 378 2000 which we all know has been replaced by BS EN 378 2008 hence the 2079 was already out of date when the city and guilds certified the first candidates back in 2008 when the new standard had been released.

    My theory is to stick with construction skills which is very up to date

    ps I do not work directly for either

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by polarpodge View Post
    i encountered these same problems here in ireland there was electricians on my course who worked for air con companys they couldnt weld and barely use guages to pump down the simplest condensing units yet they still passed
    A problem not only in the EU & Ireland but also Australia & New Zealand see #12

    http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...e-in-Australia

    I presume the world over

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I think we would all agree that such courses teach people just enough to be dangerous. They are not a course in refrigeration, nor are they simply a material handling/transporting course. They teach too much and/or too little. They are neither here nor there. As such, they serve no useful purpose... and if anything are counter-productive.

    Those who receive these certifications believe they are qualified to work on the systems. The problem isn't that they don't know, it's that they don't know that they don't know.
    Here Here.. Quite right & Tactfully put

    Quote Originally Posted by Quality View Post
    just for the record the 2079 will not last forever as the 2078 did not nor the 2077. I have posted previously that the 2079 is based on BS EN 378 2000 which we all know has been replaced by BS EN 378 2008 hence the 2079 was already out of date when the city and guilds certified the first candidates back in 2008
    Well that is shocking - what a waste of time & how deceptive a new qualification can be

    I think the only way forward is a world wide recongnised minimum qualification thats syllabus has been put together to cover all the basics of refrigeration + health & safety + environmental facts.

    It needs to be derived from input from elected (by engineers) outspoken knowledgable individuals from all participating countries such as Gary that do not have a vested interest in making money from it like the current 2079 was.

    A date should be set for compulsory qualification

    And it should be made clear that if you dont have the knowledge for the theory or the skills & knowledge for the practicle you dont pass & you dont work in the industry untill you do.

    There should be no hand holding on tests

    And I for one would be happy to pay for training for myself, to bring me up to standard, if it was found I did not have the sufficient knowledge or skills to pass.

    This would then in effect clean up the industry world wide & show the public what an Elite Industry this really should be & not the, any ole fool can do it, perception that I currently come across
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    I'm not a big fan of elitism... especially when it is government mandated.

    Personally, I would go the other way. Get rid of all of these useless regulations and go back to the original plan, i.e. phase out the suspect refrigerants at the manufacturing level and nothing else.

    Stop screwing up our industry. The regulations cause more problems than they solve.
    Last edited by Gary; 14-08-2011 at 12:43 AM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    I'm not a big fan of elitism... especially when it is government mandated.

    Stop screwing up our industry. The regulations cause more problems than they solve.
    What's the way way forward then, to clean up the industry from a poor skills point of view, which all though it sounds selfish appears more important to most of us that have posted.

    Thinking outside the box here for a minute, it's a bit

    Pot Kettle Black

    We are all multi-skilled (plumbers, electricians, refrigeration eng. & transport eng. diesel fitters aswell)
    Last edited by chillerman2006; 14-08-2011 at 01:30 AM.
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    The way to improve skills is to improve education... but then, we've been playing that game ever since I can remember. Every time there is a call for better education in our industry, what we end up getting is more education, not better education. More of what we don't need to know instead of what we do need to know.

    It's like teaching someone how to swim. We teach him all about the chemical and physical properties of water and precisely how to build a swimming pool, then throw him in the deep end and wonder why he drowns. What can we expect when those who decide what constitutes "better education" are the people who design pools, rather than the expert swimmers?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    The way to improve skills is to improve education... but then, we've been playing that game ever since I can remember. Every time there is a call for better education in our industry, what we end up getting is more education, not better education. More of what we don't need to know instead of what we do need to know.

    It's like teaching someone how to swim. We teach him all about the chemical and physical properties of water and precisely how to build a swimming pool, then throw him in the deep end and wonder why he drowns. What can we expect when those who decide what constitutes "better education" are the people who design pools, rather than the expert swimmers?
    It's late here now mate but I think I get what you mean

    We need expert swimmers to pass on the skills, not so much pool attendents & without interference from politicians

    It's just like the olympics though, larger countries have more expert swimmers to choose from & smaller ones have to just use what they do have & only occasionly gain medals when a gifted swimmer is found.

    We still have a problem here then, people learning to swim & passing on there skills as they go, sadly not many of olympic standard
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It would seem to me that most of this BS is driven by pilocks in govt departments, uni academics, training facilitors, manufactures and large end users, at the end of the day the contractors have to abide by the BS. If it is really seen as an issue, then regulate the industry properly, like the gas, electrical or petro chem industries (only those who are time served and fully qualified are allowed to undertake refrigeration/AC work) Refresher courses to keep up with changes in technology. (you will never stop those who will break the law regardless)

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    Point me in the direction of official site .... eg. .gov.uk

    As I have been charged VAT

    extract from www.revenue.ie Appendix A: VAT Exempt activities :
    "children's or young people's education, school or university education, and vocational training
    or retraining (including the supply of goods and services incidental thereto , other than
    the supply of research services), provided by educational establishments recognised by the
    State, and education, training or retraining of a similar kind , excluding instruction in the driving
    of mechanically propelled road vehicles other than vehicles designed or constructed for
    the conveyance of goods with a capacity of 1.5 tonnes or more, provided by other persons;
    "

    That's for our side of the pond but I don't think you are any different. Hope that helps

  22. #72
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by RSTC View Post
    extract from www.revenue.ie Appendix A: VAT Exempt activities :
    "children's or young people's education, school or university education, and vocational training
    or retraining (including the supply of goods and services incidental thereto , other than
    the supply of research services), provided by educational establishments recognised by the
    State, and education, training or retraining of a similar kind , excluding instruction in the driving
    of mechanically propelled road vehicles other than vehicles designed or constructed for
    the conveyance of goods with a capacity of 1.5 tonnes or more, provided by other persons;
    "

    That's for our side of the pond but I don't think you are any different. Hope that helps
    Ok thanks mate, will phone and query my bill monday

    cheers
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by mad fridgie View Post
    It would seem to me that most of this BS is driven by pilocks in govt departments, uni academics, training facilitors, manufactures and large end users, at the end of the day the contractors have to abide by the BS. If it is really seen as an issue, then regulate the industry properly, like the gas, electrical or petro chem industries (only those who are time served and fully qualified are allowed to undertake refrigeration/AC work) Refresher courses to keep up with changes in technology. (you will never stop those who will break the law regardless)
    Evening Mad

    that would be perfect for us here & would be the way forward from an engineers point of view - the main thing we all know would happen is the less able would be removed from the industry untill they are able - and that would drive up wages - like it did when the gas trade was fully regulated
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Some say that politicians etc are bad yes often that's true, but without rules how does society operate? Someone has to set the rules. Or is it suggested it's everyman for him self (see Somalia, pirates, terrorists etc)?
    Then there are those that deny global warming, well the vast majority of world scientific community can't be wrong! But then there are some who see conspiracy every where and even when confronted with evidence disproving their theories they invent more rubbish!
    With regard to re-training, would you like a surgeon to operate on you who last had up to date training say in 1970 when they qualified? Or would you prefer a surgeon who used up to date practice & technology as so saving you're life!
    All trade industries need to be governed by a registration system same as doctors and therefore to practice unregistered would be a criminal offence. This in the long run makes life easier for all. The customer would be confident that he will pay only once for a job. Not hire a cowboy who screws the job, then the customer pays twice to get a qualified person to correct the bad job! This would raise the pay for all after all if the customer knows he will only pay once he will be prepared to pay a reasonable price. Otherwise the qualified are under cut by the cowboys then the qualified are knocked down on price because the customer has run out of money!

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.

    The vast majority of the scientific community can't be wrong? Aren't these the same crowd who said tomatoes were poisonous? They are often wrong... and these days they are funded/controlled by politicians.

    Some of the worst jobs I have seen were done by licensed people... and some of the best by unlicensed people. It doesn't mean a thing.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.

    .
    Too Right Mate

    you have a perfect way of summing up Gary

    Cheers chillerman
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Once again we hear the all or nothing crap. We need minimum laws, not zero laws and not laws that dictate how you must walk, talk, look, act and think, every waking moment of your life.

    The vast majority of the scientific community can't be wrong? Aren't these the same crowd who said tomatoes were poisonous? They are often wrong... and these days they are funded/controlled by politicians.

    Some of the worst jobs I have seen were done by licensed people... and some of the best by unlicensed people. It doesn't mean a thing.
    Gary , the vast number of scientists who work on global warming are at universities, which by the way, are supposed to be areas where one can undertake study in almost anything and discuss almost anything without interference from governments or corporations. This is the very basis of the University and has been for centuries. Unfortunately the world IS moving towards a corporate agenda whether we like it or not (govt is more and more controlled by them), and funding is coming more and more from corporate sources. This is a fact in North America although less so in Europe.

    In the medical world, where my wife is a scientist, the govt says "we have to reduce arthritis". You scientists present grants for possible avenues to explore and a body of your peers will decide (not the government, mind you) if they have merit. Then you get the funds.

    The scientists (and I know a few) couldn't care less about a govt agenda. They are from all areas of study and some of them just wonder why all the frogs are disappearing, for example. They just want to find out why something is happening and if it points left, they go left. If it point right they turn right.

    The climate conferences put out their report and that report is a consensus report so if 5% of the scientists don't agree, it doesn't go in the report. In this way, what you read is the very base of agreement. Nothing pie in the sky.....nothing overblown.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    With the massive changes going on around us, post 911, expect more intrusion, not less into our lives. I am a bit libertarian as well which is why I couldn't live in Europe, I think, but i do understand the flawed way we create the laws, many of which I hate as much as you guys do.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Might be o.k for your area Mike. Different points of view down here. Not me but the way the powers to be tend to go with what they want, not with something that is factual. If it doesn't bring in the money, they turn the other way. Happening now, so much evidence has been provided, for and against such subjects as global warming/ carbon pollution. Medical leans to where the money is, not what can cure someone for a few dollars. Imagine how the drug companies would go broke, with many people out of jobs if there was a cure for anything. (Taking forever to develop cure for the big C when many out there know ways around it). Sorry for rant and have to stop here before i get wound up about the "C"..Mike.
    To the optimist, the glass is half full. To the pessimist, the glass is half empty.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Been a while since I was at university, but I remember it being very political. All the professors leaned so far left it's a wonder the building didn't tip over.

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    The current govt in Canada is dominated with people whos profs (at U of Chicago and U of Calgary) leaned so far to the right that Hitler almost comes into view. You may be right about a lot of universities generally leaning to the left but one thing I noticed is that the left will put on a debate and invite the right to speak but the right seldom does the same for the left.

    A funny thing I noticed years ago. A local paper in Toronto took all the 44 elected city councilors, looked at their lawns and gardens and added their political leanings to the picture. The upshot is that the more conservative councilors had very perfect, controlled lawns where nothing was out of place and the lefties may have had designed landscaping but then left nature to take its course. The point that was made was that the lefties wanted people to be able to do their own thing, whatever that was (as long as they were not breaking laws) and the right needed everything under its control, a bit opposite to the general perception.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeref View Post
    Might be o.k for your area Mike. Different points of view down here. Not me but the way the powers to be tend to go with what they want, not with something that is factual. If it doesn't bring in the money, they turn the other way. Happening now, so much evidence has been provided, for and against such subjects as global warming/ carbon pollution. Medical leans to where the money is, not what can cure someone for a few dollars. Imagine how the drug companies would go broke, with many people out of jobs if there was a cure for anything. (Taking forever to develop cure for the big C when many out there know ways around it). Sorry for rant and have to stop here before i get wound up about the "C"..Mike.
    Mike, I've had the big "C" and it's not pretty. Father in law and sister in law going through it at the mo. I agree with you that corporate medical goes where the money is. In Canada, where the provincial govt is responsible for supplying money to the hospitals, they see health cost taking up 40%+ of all tax dollars and have to try and balance health delivery and finding ways to reduce the rising costs.

    The simple fact is that most ailments are on the increase especially ones where environmental factors such as manufactured foods or pesticides and hormones may be at play. How do you stop all these things without research and banning things from the food chain. Corporate food guys will scream blood murder and their goes our freedom but when most people couldn't care what they eat as long as their tummies are full, where do you stop? It is a big question.

    There is a big argument here about the pink ribbon campaign for breast cancer and the proceeds going towards chemo and not towards research to get rid of the problem....only benefits the drug companies, as usual.

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    The left would force you to live this way and the right would force you to live that way. They differ only in the brand of dictatorship they are peddling. When the boot is on your neck, it doesn't matter if it's left or right.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    The point that was made was that the lefties wanted people to be able to do their own thing, whatever that was (as long as they were not breaking laws)...
    Therein lies the rub. If everything is dictated by law, then people are NOT able to do their own thing.

    Everyone gives lip service to freedom... then they pass law after law... after law... after law... after law...

    I would want people to be able to dp their own thing, whatever that is (as long as they are not harming others). See the difference?
    Last edited by Gary; 21-09-2011 at 02:23 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Evening Gary

    'laws were made to be broken' or we would not have them anyway, would not be needed

    also agree with your second comment (as long as they are not harming others).

    physical/mental harm can not be tolerated but those claiming harm from trivia, should not be tolerated either

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Harm to others should be the dividing line between that which is legal and that which is not.

    There are actions which are clearly harmful to others and these should be felonies.

    Then there is the grey area where harm to others is debatable and these should be at most misdemeanors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Harm to others should be the dividing line between that which is legal and that which is not.

    There are actions which are clearly harmful to others and these should be felonies.

    Then there is the grey area where harm to others is debatable and these should be at most misdemeanors.

    OK, not so hypothetical question....if McDonalds makes "food" with little nutrition and a lot of fat and sugar, markets it really well (as they do), and therefore are a partial cause in the increase in diabetes and other diseases, does this constitute harm to a perhaps not so bright person (who may otherwise be an upstanding member of the community)? If it does, what is the solution? It's that fine line between a corporations "right" to make money and the publics "right" to be protected. We can't be expected to be educated in everything we eat or do. Do we?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    It's hard I find to judge what exactly is that borderline between what should/shouldn't be law

    have been thinking about it since your post & I cant stand here & say this should this shouldn't be

    apart from the obvious that are definately wrong....we both agree I think, we don't want lawless

    but what exactly should be law I really cant say, as some things affect others in different ways

    I think its really hard to nail this one, as there will always be another view on what we agree by others & I suppose thats why we are having this conversation, as others have agreed with what is law now, but we dissagree

    What is a 'felony' mate ???

    R's chillerman
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    OK, not so hypothetical question....if McDonalds makes "food" with little nutrition and a lot of fat and sugar, markets it really well (as they do), and therefore are a partial cause in the increase in diabetes and other diseases, does this constitute harm to a perhaps not so bright person (who may otherwise be an upstanding member of the community)? If it does, what is the solution? It's that fine line between a corporations "right" to make money and the publics "right" to be protected. We can't be expected to be educated in everything we eat or do. Do we?
    I would say (personally) that should be governed by a health law

    If you are going to market anything it should be farely truthfull & unhealthy food should be clearly labelled as unhealthy, that would be right to protect all & give them a chance to decide, do I put 5 bullets in this gun for russian roulette or only one, as most foods not good for you now ! Or so they say (especially my full english breakfast I have nearly every day) Where as when I was a wee laddie bread & dripping was supposed to be a treat, that made you grow big and strong !

    R's chillerman
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    The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).

    BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    What is a 'felony' mate ???
    A felony is a major offense, generally resulting in prison time.

    A misdemeanor is a minor offense, generally resulting in a fine.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).

    BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since
    I still think you can not ban something - we all need the right to choose - I smoke yet I know odds are stacked against me living to old age, breathing perfect, many smokers last breaths are not good and thats if your lungs dont succomb to the big 'C'

    Your second bit mate, Sorry to here that Mike, that really is wrong, very wrong...cant imagine what you been through, especially knowing they caused it, have had minor, just skin and that was worrying enough at the time, it does not matter how level headed you are, thats a hard thing to hear...Do hope you totally clear now mate

    As pathology was conclusive hope they had to pay you plenty too (even though money is never enough)

    R's chillerman

    ps: your still looking young mate
    If the World did not Suck, We would all fall off !

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    A felony is a major offense, generally resulting in prison time.

    A misdemeanor is a minor offense, generally resulting in a fine.
    Thanks mate

    we often have american programmes on and never new difference

    cheers

    R's chillerman
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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeHolm View Post
    The biggest point here is that there are two ways to look at a problem like this......one is to say "ban it as it shows some evidence of hurting people" or the opposite which is not to ban it until it is proven to hurt people. Most corporations like the second one so they can sell smokes to minors knowing that the time it takes to actually prove something is a long time and takes a lot of money (and screws up the health system).

    BTW, what caused my cancer when I was 35, according to the pathology report, was the fire retardant put into McDonalds deep fat frying oil that went into my hash brown potato every morning for 5 years. Apparently it is a carcinogen. haven't had one since

    If a product is obviously dangerous to your health or labelled as such, and you purchase it anyway, the government should have no say in the matter. It is a voluntary transaction. You have chosen to take your chances.

    BTW, you should sue McDonalds.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by chillerman2006 View Post
    I still think you can not ban something - we all need the right to choose - I smoke yet I know odds are stacked against me living to old age, breathing perfect, many smokers last breaths are not good and thats if your lungs dont succomb to the big 'C'

    Your second bit mate, Sorry to here that Mike, that really is wrong, very wrong...cant imagine what you been through, especially knowing they caused it, have had minor, just skin and that was worrying enough at the time, it does not matter how level headed you are, thats a hard thing to hear...Do hope you totally clear now mate

    As pathology was conclusive hope they had to pay you plenty too (even though money is never enough)

    R's chillerman

    ps: your still looking young mate


    Should the seatbelt law be repelled?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    If a product is obviously dangerous to your health or labelled as such, and you purchase it anyway, the government should have no say in the matter. It is a voluntary transaction. You have chosen to take your chances.

    BTW, you should sue McDonalds.
    Should there be a law to test and declare these products

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Should the seatbelt law be repelled?
    Yes... it is none of the government's business.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by r.bartlett View Post
    Should there be a law to test and declare these products
    No... if they prove to be harmful, sue the manufacturer... if they label it and you use it anyway, you lose the lawsuit.
    Last edited by Gary; 21-09-2011 at 10:14 PM.

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Yes... it is none of the government's business.
    Should I have to pay to have the road wiped down after someone went through the windshield?

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    Re: The Trouble with the Industry !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    No... if they prove to be harmful, sue the manufacturer... if they label it and you use it anyway, you lose the lawsuit.
    what if you die before you get a chance to sue

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