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Thread: EN 378 revision

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    EN 378 revision



    .

    I presume that this is the most appropriate home for this new thread.

    I understand that EN 378 is currently being revised to harmonise it further with the PED. I've lost touch with what is happening on this one in recent months.

    Does anyone know what measures are being revised in it? Additionally, is there any alignment in line with the emission control requirement in the proposed European F Gas Regulation?

    Any indications would be helpful.


    .
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    Last edited by Argus; 07-02-2011 at 08:31 AM.



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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Argus

    I presume that this is the most appropriate home for this new thread.

    I understand that EN 378 is currently being revised to harmonise it further with the PED. I've lost touch with what is happening on this one in recent months.

    Does anyone know what measures are being revised in it? Additionally, is there any alignment in line with the emission control requirement in the proposed European F Gas Regulation?

    Any indications would be helpful.



    ARGUS,
    Thank you for bringing this up.
    So that we get our facts right, PED is the P something Equipment Directive, Yes?? I know what the P is, but my mind has gone blank!!

    If its a Directive then it would appertain to European Law which is "binding" on UK


    EN 378 refers to??

    Kindly enlighten us further what the citations refer to

    Thx

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Pressure Equipment Directive (PED)

    The Directive

    The European Pressure Equipment Directive (PED) No. 97/23/EC came into force on November 29, 1999. For a period of 30 months, until May 29, 2002 implementation and application was voluntary. However, from May 30, 2002 all items of pressure equipment placed on the market in the European Economic Area (EEA) must comply with the Directive and have evidence of compliance by carrying the CE marking, as applicable.


    Legislation across the EEA requires that all applicable items of pressure equipment placed on the market by May 2002 be fully compliant with the PED. As a result manufacturers must revise their working practice and develop the appropriate Technical Files for their full product range.

    As a result, preparation cannot commence soon enough, since the PED encompasses design verification, material selection, manufacturing/fabrication practices and qualification, product testing, product marking and user instruction compilation.

    For those manufacturers who are compliant prior to May 2002, placing the CE marking on their pressure equipment means that that equipment has a passport to free trade and must go into service in all Member States of the EEA, without the need to comply with current National Regulations. As a result, there can be great savings on the cost for statutory inspection as required for Member States such as France, Germany and Italy.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyub

    Kindly enlighten us further what the citations refer to

    Thx
    Sorry about that ? a bit of background for you:

    PED is the Pressure Equipment Directive. You?re right it?s mandatory on manufacturers and installers of equipment within the scope in the EU for over 5 years.
    http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise.../index_en.html

    It is a ?New Approach Directive? and requires a CE mark on equipment and components, pressure vessels etc.
    http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/newappro.html

    EN 378 ? 2000 in 4 Parts is the European standard on refrigeration safety.
    Parts of it are ?harmonised? to the PED.
    http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/harmonised.html

    ODS regulations (2037 / 2000) refer to Chlorinated gases in the EU, R11, R12, R22 etc
    http://www.dti.gov.uk/access/ozone.htm
    You probably know this one ? it?s been around for 5 years.

    F Gas Regulations are in progress, intended to control emissions of HFCs, PFCs, SF6 etc.
    http://europa.eu.int/prelex/detail_d...=184911#367844
    http://www.dti.gov.uk/sustainability/fgases.htm
    It?s approaching second reading in the EU parliament next month.
    It will, amongst other things, require minimum qualifications of operatives handling refrigerants, and require operators to keep equipment logs and regularly check equipment over 3kg for leakages ? by law.




    As there may be people involved in EN 378 who visit from time to time, I was hoping to find out what the latest state of play is with the new revisions to EN 378.

    .
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    Last edited by Argus; 07-02-2011 at 08:32 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Argus

    Im not sure if this second reading you refer to, appertains to the proposal to control emissions of refrigerant from vehicle air conditioning systems?

    But, controls on the type of refrigerants used in vehicles are definately on the way

    Abe



    FLUORINATED GREENHOUSE GASES

    The Council reached political agreement, by qualified majority, on:

    * a draft European Parliament and Council Regulation on certain fluorinated greenhouse gases;
    * a draft European Parliament and Council Directive on emissions from air conditioning systems in motor vehicles, amending Directive 70/156/EEC (13630/04).

    The Danish and Austrian delegations voted against; the Belgian, Portuguese and Swedish delegations abstained.

    The draft texts submitted to the Council result from a single Commission proposal for a Regulation. However, to reduce the use of fluorinated gases in air conditioning systems in motor vehicles, a separate proposal was put on the table, based on the existing EU vehicle type-approval system (Directive 70/156/EEC).

    The draft legal acts are intended to be significant elements of the first phase of the European Climate Change Programme, which was established in
    [/I]
    June 2000, by introducing cost-effective measures aimed at reducing emissions of the fluorinated greenhouse gases (FGG) which could enable the European Community to meet its Kyoto Protocol targets, while preventing distortion of the internal market.

    To that end, the draft Regulation, based on Articles 95 and 175 of the Treaty, addresses the containment, use, recovery and destruction of the FGG listed in Annex A to the Kyoto Protocol. It further regulates the labelling and disposal of products and equipment containing these gases; the reporting of information on those gases; the use of sulphur hexafluoride; the placing on the market of products and equipment containing, or whose functioning relies upon, FGG; and the training and certification of personnel involved in activities provided for by the draft Regulation.

    The draft Directive applies specifically to FGG emissions from air conditioning systems fitted to vehicles. It establishes a gradual system of elimination of air conditioning equipment with a global warming potential higher than 150.

    The European Parliament having delivered its first reading opinion on 31 March, the text now agreed will take the form of a common position after its finalisation in all Community languages and be submitted to the European Parliament for its second reading.
    [/B][/COLOR]
    [/I][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyub

    But, controls on the type of refrigerants used in vehicles are definately on the way

    Thanks Abe.

    They're a bit more than just controls! The Commission propose an outright ban on use in new vehicles....
    The Directive on MACs (Motor Air Conditioning) seems to be done and dusted. I'm not involved in that side of the business, though.

    However, I do follow the new F gas regulation as a DTI stakeholder, if you are interested the latest Rapporteur's amendments can be viewed here:

    http://www.dti.gov.uk/sustainability...eport_Regs.pdf

    Amongst other things, she is seeking to revert to a single legal base (environment), which means that certain EU countries may seek to reintroduce national restrictions on HFCs.
    A big problem, if you are a manufacturer exporting to them.

    Still, the main thrust of my question remains the revisions to EN 378. But I'm pleased that you've identified the connections between all these points.

    .
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    Last edited by Argus; 07-02-2011 at 08:32 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    It will, amongst other things, require minimum qualifications of operatives handling refrigerants, and require operators to keep equipment logs and regularly check equipment over 3kg for leakages – by law.
    Are there any sample "Equipment Logs" available to download so that we can see how we may comply?
    Do the owners (operators) have to keep these logs? What kind of recording do we have to do for leakage checks?

    I seem to catch up with legislation sometime after it becomes legal

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Frank

    These are European Directives and Regulations

    Once passed these become applicable into British law and enforceable by our Courts.

    Not ALL Directives are directly applicable, but Regulations are.

    This is a fairly complex area, I shall endeavour to give some more clarity once I have found the relevant Regulation and acsertained its applicability.

    Until then, we hold our breath

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Quote Originally Posted by frank
    Are there any sample "Equipment Logs" available to download so that we can see how we may comply?
    Do the owners (operators) have to keep these logs? What kind of recording do we have to do for leakage checks?

    I seem to catch up with legislation sometime after it becomes legal


    Don?t panic! The F gas regulations are not yet law! This has been in preparation since 2003. Read the background. http://www.dti.gov.uk/sustainability/fgases.htm

    Originally it covered HFC in all equipment, MAC and Fixed. The decision was made to split the legislation in two, with a Directive devoted to MACs with a view to a phase out and ban on use. Fixed systems will be the subject of a Regulation that concentrates on the control of emissions across the board.
    We are expecting it during 2006. The second reading with some new amendments is due in October 2005. It is probable, in my opinion, that the proposal is due for a parliamentary mauling and will proceed to conciliation ? this may give us delays from the 2006 deadline. The main stumbling block for the parliamentarians is the legal basis. Is it environment or trade or both? This is a hot potato in Brussels.

    The precise legal term for the ?operator? has yet to be defined. Is he the equipment owner? The equipment manager? The service company? We don?t know; the DTI accept that this point needs some thought.

    The draft regulation proposal does not define what you have to do for a system check and they never will. In other words it does not give you a method statement. This will be down to you to contractually draw up a type of check for your customers that will satisfy the regulation. This is a point that I have consistently made to the DTI that methodologies are need for types and complexity of equipment and the environments that they are installed in.

    A service company will need to keep records that tie in with the usage at site. Again, this is not new there is already a system in the UK for doing this used by some companies operated by REFCOM.
    http://www.refcom.org.uk/
    The Dutch have been doing it and much more besides, for over a decade.

    Full Implementation of the Regulation takes place once it is published in the Official Journal and following the time frame in it .

    UK legislation will follow that determines the way that it is implemented in UK law and the penalties fro non compliance.

    If anything this is one of the best windfalls to come the way of the industry in a long while.

    As a footnote, we have homed in on the need for mandatory leakage checks.

    The Regulation covers a number of other issues as well, such as operator competence and restrictions and controls on the supply of regulated substances.
    It's essential to read in full the latest version of the proposal and to check the Rapporteur's report - all available on the DTI web above.

    There is a fundamental difference in the EU between the two legal instruments; a Directive is what it says it is ? an instruction. This is to member states? governments to enact laws in each state in line with the requirements of the Directive by a certain time. The intention is that the laws are the same everywhere, but member states are left to decide the legal processes and penalties themselves. Directives themselves have no effect on companies or individuals, but the laws they harmonise do. Regulations have direct effect on companies and individuals throughout the EU. The results of Directives may be acceptable to EFTA states at their discretion, Regulations do not apply outside the EU.

    I've been following this Regulation since it started, but anyway, back to the original topic EN 378..... any ideas?


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    Last edited by Argus; 07-02-2011 at 08:33 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Thanks Argus - I'l try to stay informed (and comply)

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Hi,

    What i've been wondering is what lengths we are expected to go to in order to conduct a 'leak test'. Does this mean that we have a poke around with an electronic leak detector, use leak detection spray or recover refrigerant and pressurise with OFN?

    I'm not finding the information i'm looking for elsewhere so I thought i'd ask on here to see if anyone knows.

    Thanks...

    Paul.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Visual inspection for oil leaks etc., leak detector if you feel it's necessary.

    At the moment there is no need to decant the gas charge and perform a pressure test.
    Brian - Newton Abbot, Devon, UK
    Retired March 2015

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    .
    The European Commission technical committee that is dealing with leakage testing in the new regulation and the ODS regulations producing guidance on the leakage testing requirements.

    They were due to complete this and to present it to the member states’ governments for implementation at national level by July 4th this year, when the requirements of the regulation took effect.
    They missed this deadline and their deliberations are expected later this year, in the autumn.

    You can read and download the latest guidance notes in DEFRA’s web site under ‘Useful Documents’:

    http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...fgas/index.htm

    Also, have a look at the various information posted about technician’s certification and competence in ACRIB’s site:

    http://www.acrib.org.uk/

    .

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    If the leak test involves just a visual inspection they shouldn't have even mentioned it in the new revision. Doesn't everyone look for oil etc on a maintenance visit? The engineers that don't still won't but will tick a box to say they have and if challenged will just say 'that leak must have started after I left'. I don't see the point of demanding these so called 'leak tests' when there is little way of enforcing them. I think what it boils down to is that somebody wants to be seen as doing something about climate change so a couple of extra paragraphs are added but the truth is little has changed.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    The question was about EN378. Yes it is under revision and the new version was voted on and agreed in November 07 so it should be published in January 08 or so. The changes are to harmonise it with the PED and the Machinery Directive amongst others and just to update and correct. There will be a guidance note issued identifying the main changes - one of which is concerned with the difference between system pressure testing and leak tightness testing.

    As far as leak testing for the F gas regs go, this was agreed after the EN378 was finalised. But EN378 is only a safety standard so this shouldnt be a major problem of contradictions.

    The F Gas regs specify a procedure for leak checking and detection involving soapy bubble solution, using leak detecting dye or using a hand held leak detector - its more than just checking for oil. There will even be a special qualification for this if theengineer does not already have a full refrigerant handling certificate.

    You can see the European agreed leak detection procedure on the BERR website at dti.gov.uk innovation sustainability f gases.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Hello Members,

    How can I get a copy of the EN 378?
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:19 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    EN-378:2008 Review of Key Revisions
    The European Standard for the design and construction of refrigeration systems EN378 has been
    republished following a comprehensive review period. The previous version of the standard,
    EN378:2000 has been withdrawn and is replaced by EN378:2008. The title of the standard is
    unchanged:
    ?Refrigerating systems and heat pumps ? Safety and environmental requirements?
    It is published in four parts:
    Part 1: Basic requirements, definitions, classification and selection criteria
    Part 2: Design, construction, testing, marking and documentation
    Part 3: Installation site and personal protection
    Part 4: Operation, maintenance, repair and recovery
    These are generally the same as in the previous version but some content has been moved from one
    part to another where it is more appropriate.
    Harmonisation with EC Directives
    The main reason for the update was to harmonise the standard with the European Commission?s
    Pressure Equipment Directive 97/23/EC, and it was also assessed for conformity with the
    Machinery Directives 98/37/EC and 2006/42/EC. The conclusion of this exercise was that Part 2,
    which deals with design, needed to be in conformity with the directives, but the other parts were
    beyond the directives? scope, so did not need to be assessed. Details of the correlation between
    EN378 and the directives are given in Annexes ZA and ZB of part 2. As part 2 has been accepted
    as a ?new approach? standard by the European Commission, compliance with the standard provides
    a ?presumption of conformity? with the associated directives.
    As with all standards the text is either ?normative? or ?informative?. In general normative sections
    use the word ?shall? and informative sections use less definitive terms such as ?should? or ?may?.
    By convention any text given in a note to the text is treated as informative, not normative. Annexes
    to the text may be normative or informative ? generally this is stated in the title of the annex.
    Normative text is mandatory, but informative is only advisory, so that it is possible to be in
    conformity with the standard even if the text of an informative section has not been implemented.
    Changes to Part 1: Basic requirements, definitions, classification and selection criteria
    In part 1 a number of new definitions were added, particularly reflecting the introduction of cascade
    and transcritical carbon dioxide systems. A few definitions were also removed where the text is no
    longer used in the standard. The classes L1, L2 and L3 adopted in EN378:2000 have been dropped
    and the safety classes for toxicity, A and B, and the safety classes for flammability, 1, 2 and 3 have
    been reintroduced. This gives the more familiar designation of refrigerants as A1 (eg R-134a), B2
    Guidance Note 16

    Guidance Note 16
    2
    (eg R-717) and A3 (eg R-290). This is in line with the Institute?s safety codes on refrigerants, which are
    being revised to coincide with the publication of EN378:2007. The table in Annex C (table C1) has been
    simplified to make it easier to follow, but in general the requirements for system location dependent on
    occupancy have not changed, however the permitted charge sizes for flammable refrigerants have
    changed to give a more rational basis for the maximum charge sizes (which can be less than those defined
    by the Practical Limit and room volume). Annex C (Refrigerant Charge Limitations) is now Normative.
    It should be emphasised that each refrigerant listed in Annex E, tables E.1, E.2 and E.3 has a ?practical
    limit?, calculated by the method described in Annex F. The practical limit has units of kg/m
    3 and is the
    maximum charge of a system that can be installed in a certain room volume without additional safety
    precautions. So for example if the practical limit is 0.25 kg/m
    3 (R-134a) and the room volume is 24 m3

    then the maximum refrigerant charge allowed without additional safety measures is 6kg. If the system
    charge exceeds this amount then suitable additional safety measures are required. These might include
    automatic gas detection in the occupied space linked to evacuation alarms or automatic isolation valves.
    The type of detection and alarm is specified in part 3.
    Changes to Part 2: Design, construction, testing, marking and documentation
    Part 2 is the most widely updated section of the standard, and it is now the only one harmonized with
    the European Directives. A comprehensive table of cross-references has been introduced and the
    table of specified design temperatures has been extended to cover a wider range of operating
    conditions (table 2).
    New terms have been introduced for pressure testing. These seem strange at first but they highlight
    an important difference between testing for leaks during installation or after repair and testing for
    leaks during operation. Two types of pressure test are required by part 2. A ?strength test? is
    required for each component, and for the final assembly of the system. Typically component tests use
    water as the test medium, but the assembly strength test may use an appropriate gas if water would
    cause contamination of the assembly. The pressure requirement for strength testing of components
    has been set at 1.43 Ps, however there are circumstances defined where this extreme pressure may not
    be required.
    A ?tightness? test is then required to ensure that the component or assembly is not leaking. It is
    explicitly stated in part 2 that a tightness test must not be conducted until the system integrity has
    been proved by a successful strength test, or has been verified by a type test. Where the manufacturer
    consents, the component tightness tests may be conducted on the assembly. Various types of
    tightness test are permitted, but they should be equivalent to the sensitivity of applying soapy water to
    joints while the test piece is pressurised to the allowable pressure of the system. The term ?leak test?
    is no longer used for this type of test ? leak testing is a different activity described in part 4.
    The requirements for protection against excess pressure have been codified in the form of a 4-part
    flow diagram. This may look daunting at first, but it has been carefully prepared to make the
    selection of safety equipment easier to follow, and the intention was that the requirements of the
    previous standard should not be altered, but should be explained more clearly.
    Several paragraphs have been added to address the mechanical hazards of vibration, protection
    against hot surfaces and protection against moving parts, in order to ensure conformity with the
    Machinery Directive. Several useful annexes have been added to part 2 providing additional
    guidance for ammonia systems (Annex A) describing how PED categories can be determined (Annex
    B), and giving details of acceptable safety device arrangements (Annex G).
    Changes to Part 3: Installation site and personal protection
    In part 3 the distinction between ?machinery rooms? and ?special machinery rooms? has been
    reduced ? all rooms containing refrigerating equipment (except rooms containing only evaporators)
    are classed as machinery rooms, and where a room is designated a ?special machinery room? the
    3
    difference is that installation of other equipment is not permitted in the room. For ammonia systems
    the requirement for emergency showers has been specified more precisely, including the specification
    of flow rate and water temperature. The requirements for gas detection and breathing apparatus have
    been clarified in Annex A, and it is made clear that this refers to all refrigerants, not just ammonia.
    Annex A indicates that the level of personal protective equipment provided for emergency use on site
    should be discussed and agreed with the local emergency responders ? in practice this means the local
    Fire Brigade. Annex A also indicates that canister respirators should be used whenever applying heat
    (welding or brazing) to fluorocarbon systems to protect against the products of decomposition, but
    points out that such respirators offer no protection against the effects of large releases of A1
    refrigerants (including carbon dioxide as well as fluorocarbons), where the main danger is oxygen
    deprivation. However, Annex A is informative and therefore does not form part of the mandatory
    requirements of the standard.
    Changes to Part 4: Operation, maintenance, repair and recovery
    Part 4 has not been significantly altered from the previous version. A few additional explanations and
    interpretations have been provided, including some flow diagrams to explain the relationship between
    refrigerant recovery, reclaim and recycling. Part 4 also describes the testing of systems in operation
    for refrigerant, now known as ?leak testing?. Leak testing uses a refrigerant detector to sense
    refrigerant in the atmosphere ? this is not an acceptable form of tightness testing, as it would require
    refrigerant to be charged into the system before the equipment had been proved to be free of leaks.
    Part 4 of EN378 does not recognise some of the methods suggested by the EU Regulation on
    Fluorinated Gases proposals as leak test methods ? it requires leaks to be ?identified?. As this
    requires pinpointing the source of a leak it is clear that a gas detection unit in the machinery room is
    not suitable, nor is an indirect method such as software monitoring of receiver levels. In practice the
    wording of part 4 suggests that inspection after repair work should include strength and tightness
    testing before refrigerant is charged into the system and leak testing once the system has been
    charged. This is described in Annex D of part 4, where the term ?pressure test for system? is used to
    describe the strength and tightness tests and ?refrigerant leakage detection? is used to describe the
    leak test.
    Input to the revision from the UK
    The United Kingdom?s input to the development of this revised standard was co-ordinated through
    the British Standards Institute Technical Committee for Refrigeration Safety, RHE/18. The Institute
    of Refrigeration?s Technical Committee provided some experts to RHE/18, and to the associated
    CEN committee TC/182. The Institute?s Technical Committee also acted as a peer reviewer for the
    standard at various stages during its development.
    Sources of Further Information
    Copies of EN standards can be purchased from the
    BSI Bookshop on +44 (0)20 8996 7858, or on line
    at
    www.bsi-global.com

    IOR provides Safety Codes which are guides to interpretation of the Standard written for the various
    groups of refrigerants in use (Group A1 - halocarbon; Group A2 and A3 ? flammable; Ammonia; and
    Carbon Dioxide). These can be purchased at
    www.ior.org.uk

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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:19 AM.

  18. #18
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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Hi,
    I am searching for reference in this EN, about fire fighting restrictions.
    If anyone knows pls help.

    Thanks in advance
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    Quote Originally Posted by nektarios21 View Post
    Hi,
    I am searching for reference in this EN, about fire fighting restrictions.

    Not certain what you are asking.

    There are never any restrictions on fire fighting - it is always the first consideration.

    However, EN 378 is primarily concerned with refrigeration safety. The section dealing with site, installation and personal safety is in part 3.

    General classification of refrigerants (flammability / toxicity) etc. is in part 1.

    Otherwise it is not specific about fire hazards - that would be dealt with in other standards and legislation.


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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:24 AM.

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    Re: EN 378 revision

    I think perhaps he is asking about fire fighting equipment, remember Halon ?
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    Last edited by Argus; 16-09-2011 at 02:25 AM.

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