Ammonia Safe Handling.

[Grizzly]

I know the Industry Leaders in training,of which a few post on the forum.
All advocate the same practice of Having a respirator around your neck or close to hand.
Whilst working on Ammonia plant where there is a risk of Ammonia leaks / releases.
So that a controlled and safe exit to a safe area can be achieved.
This I totally agree with.
But sadly I am coming across a new breed of H&S reps / trainers that are stating that you should work in your respirator.
In fact the site engineer that I have been working with for the last couple of days.
Who has 25 yrs experience on his Ammonia plant, was telling me that His trainer.
Whilst doing a C.I.T.B. (ON-Site) 2078 Ammonia had expected him to where his respirator whilst caring out works on his plant for the assessment.
His company have issued him with a personal Gas leak Monitor which at 30ppm alarms.
So that he is then expected to remove himself from the affected area.
Last time I tried one of these I was stood next to a leaking shaft seal with the monitor showing 80ppm.
At the time my colleague and I where still trying to ascertain where the leak was and certainly were not bothered by the smell.
By the way certain models of Gas monitor are equipped with a electronic log.
So if you ignore the 30 ppm and have an accident you are totally to blame.
Discuss.
We seem to have lost control of how we safely go about our business.
Grizzly

[CHIEF DELPAC]

Grizzly I am with you in wondering how far these regs. will go? It seems like the safety experts would like us to be in a chemical suit and have a self contained air pack as well. Its hard to discuss these issues with the safety experts in my part of the country as their answer is WHAT you dont believe in safety. Or this what we are here for is safety. And of course all employers are pro safety whenever an inspector is on site. Currently we are suppose to carry an escape respirators. Which in a serious leak are useless. I wish their was a more balanced approach to these problems. However it seems like in the forseeable future the regs will continue on the route as deemed by the safety experts.

[cool runings]

.

Hi Griz....

Unfortunately we are governed by risk assessments and insurance companies.

To do your job you have to jump through so many hoops its like fighting Mike Tyson
and you have your arms pinned behind you.

I can see the reasons behind it. You get hurt at work, you sue your company and
the insurance have to pay out. So the insurance company say make his job safer.
In making your job safe they make you unable to do it.

You have a few options.

One is ignor the regulations and work at your own risk.
The other is stop working and report the incident every time
the alarm activates.

Also who writes the risk assessment?
If you can risk assess to safely work in the environment then rewrite them
if you can't write a risk assessment that allows you to work in a room full
of NH3 then maybe they have a point and more thought needs to go into
working in the environment.

Ps I work with Ammonia and I know that a tollerance can be built up against it.
so I have no real answer and have to jump through the same hoops.

all the best

coolrunnings.

.

[Magoo]

Hi Grizzly
totally agree with all comments, the OH&S thing is out of control.

[RANGER1]

I'd say the trainer is covering himself during training.

Insurance companies look at graphs & act on that.

Your nose is the best monitor but of course if you don't know its there & get a lung full
the world comes to a standstill (those who have had it know what I'm talking about).

I think oil draining it might pay to have a mask + monitor.

Our company insist you have oxygen monitor at the moment ,as a mask sometimes can be a false sense of security.

We also carry Dragar 10 minute emergency escape kits for roof spaces etc.

[PaulZ]

Hi All
I agree with all that has been said. Ranger makes a good point about using a respirator when draining oil but not only for the smell but to stop splashes on the face and in eyes.
We advise our guys to always have their respirator with them when entering a roof space or other confined area and carry out a risk assessment and decide on an escape route and make sure it's clear just in case.
If and when the new WHS regs come in in Aust things could get a lot harder here.
I have worked with ammonia for the last 35 years and have had a few close calls as most of us have I would think.
Unfortunately you can't rely on everyone to assess the risks correctly and perform the job properly (taking short cuts) and they get hurt and we all suffer with more restrictive regs.
I will get off my soapbox now.
Paul

[Quality]

I would say that the trainer who said to work with the mask on does not have a clue as it states that it is an escape mask in the study notes publishes by construction skills.
as for the occupational exposure limit of 25 ppm long term and 35 ppm short term, they are specified for repetitive / continuous exposure i.e. all day every day. We are all aware that those who are exposed more often do build up a tolerance to 200 ppm and with good ventilation it will rarely get any where near this . Its common practice for those in the know to ensure the extract is running and be aware of your surroundings i.e. confined areas . Just don`t go sticking your head in the the crank case to see how long you can stand it. ha ha

[brian_chapin]

Having your respirator nearby is generally useless in the event of an incident. Our standard (and it works well for us) is that you have to wear an APR when:

- Opening the system for any reason - even if it's pumped out. Once you have tested the atmosphere after opening the system then the APR can come off.
- In the presence of 30ppm -300ppm. Anything higher than that requires an SCBA and hazmat suit.

Various safety agencies set the IDLH, STL, etc - we just get to adhere to them. The pin-on detector we use is just to let us know when we are approaching that 300ppm limit because you can't tell when wearing a respirator. I don't have a problem wearing my respirator and neither do any of the technicians I work with.

The APR is safety overkill 99.99% of the time - but why take the risk?

[Grizzly]

Your working policy obviously works for you Brian.
Working in a respirator is my beef especially as C.I.T.B. City and Guilds and The Institute of Refrigeration
All advise against it in the U.K.
But Hey obviously the new breed of H&S Experts know better.
If "OUR" Gas monitors went up to 300ppm I don't think I would argue.
Next time you have a weeping shaft seal or Valve gland, just check what your monitor reads.
I think you will be surprised just how little Vapor there is at 30ppm.
At which point our gurus have written we must evacuate the plant room. On that basis how is anyone meant to carry out any maintenance.
I am not arguing against safety.
I am arguing against the levels being set!
Quality, spot on.
The levels you quote have always been the recognized Industry levels.
Grizzly

[Segei]

I think that we should have respirators when system opened or oil drained. To have them all the time is overreaction.