Heat pump 'specialists'

[sparkatan]

It is interesting that plumbers now seem to be in high demand, much more so than refrigeration engineers. This seems to be reflected in potential earnings and the volume of work available. It is also worthy of note that a plumber can go on a two minute crash course and be fully experienced and qualified in purchasing and installing air source heat pumps.

The plumbing trade seems to be the industry chosen by the major air conditioning manufacturers to promote their products, probably because plumbers are already installing pipework in domestic situations, however it is evident to anyone who has a evolved with refrigeration & air conditioning that the manufacturers have bypassed them to the point where it seems almost as if purchasing split type air conditioning equipment is ok but heat recovery to a wet system is better left to the 'specialists'.

I know that air source heat pump technology is not 'rocket science' but it would appear that it is not beyond these 'heat pump specialists' to fail to grasp a few of the basics and here is a little scenario which led me to think 'will this 'biting the hand that feeds' mentality return to haunt the greedy a/c manufacturers?

The other day I was called out to a problem with an air source heat pump which was being used to provide under floor heating for a dwelling. Apparently the 'heat pump specialist' would not entertain repairing the heat pump, particularly as it was outside the warranty period.

The system consisted of two, air to water heat pumps, one run, one manual standby. The standby unit was throwing up a fault code which, after examination, was found to be short of refrigerant. Taking a look at the system, I noted the water pipework was very neat, well insulated, and to the layman, a pretty asthetically pleasing job, however, the electrical installation was what i have come to expect of a plumber....

The heat pumps were located within a garage, the owner imforming me of their clever little plan which was to utilise air that was not freezing, so to gain maximum efficiency.

This theory would be fine if the units had not been installed the wrong way round, hard up against a wall, forcing air out of the garage via a bird-meshed louvre.
I asked if the garage door was closed to which the owner said 'yes, permanently'.
When I asked the question, where the fresh air was supposed to come from to the the units he pointed to an inlet grille 150mm x 500mm, located above the door.

I pointed out to the owner that as the units were fitted with propellor type fans pushing against a fairly high external resistance, with low pressure on the inlet due to the very restrictive inlet grille, there was a likelihood that airflow over the coil would be reduced considerably, the heat pump COP would be lower, with the overall effect that his payback time would be reduced, his running costs would be high and he had, in essence, defeated the object.



....but who am I to know.

[nevgee]

I think you've struck the nail squarely on the head. However I believe you may have inadvertantly reversed the "specialist" title. Surely it's the refrig /ac guy who is the specialist while the Plumber is generally just a no hoping joe soap with whom the general public seem to have some affinity. I don't want to steriotype the Plumber, but I find it hard not to from experience, more than any ill founded assumption.

Most of the ASHP and GSHPs that I attend usually have problems that are mostly plumbing circuit errors or lphw control faults. I find there is often some raport with Electricians, who generally are very curious and interested in the workings of Heat pumps, and nothing other than grumbles and dissinterest from Plumbers.
Strangely I often find that you can explain to an Electrician that you believe there to be some error in the wiring and you can give a simple reason for your reasoning. The Electrician will mostly take on board your concern and check it out, no problem. However, is it not always the case with a Plumber when you tell him your concerns about the pipework being wrong the general response is *#*~ *ff there's nothing wrong with my work. But I realise now this response is due to his exellence in professionalism and him being a "specialist" he should never be challenged.

I have been told over the years by Plumbers, that installing ac kit must be easy as there are only 2 pipes between indoor and outdoor. In the reverse of this statement we as AC&R engineers should be looking to installing the wet side of the heat pump, only two pipes F&R some valves, a tank and a pump. There is no reason at all why we can't do it. A 1 - 2 day course at building college gets you the G3 pressurised system ticket .... who needs a Plumber?

If we don't start doing this work they will, and the manufacturers of the HPs will have their pet engineer trained up to "f" gas to follow the Plumbers after install to make the corrections and do the warranty work. This is how they do it now with the gas boilers so it makes sense they will continue to do so with heat pumps. The result is the Plumber gets away with it once again and he will continue to be revered amongst the domestic circles as an elusive but essential service provider. Whereas the AC&R chaps will still be seen as very "special" people who work in strange and mystical places beyond the domestic arena.

The cycle needs to be broken.

Rant over

[MikeHolm]

In the UK is the term "Plumber" also meant to mean boiler and heating circuit design/install? I, for one, do not do toilets, sinks, or stacks (girlfriend calls them stink pipes) but I do steam heating, boilers and sometimes complicated piping arrangements....but I am not a plumber. I know my flow rates and understand pumps which traditionally, plumbing only people (in North America at least) don't know.

[sparkatan]

In the uk we also have heating engineers. These are generally the guys who work on anything from domestic to industrial boilers, normally one or the other though.
Regardless of the denomination, I would not say that either has the experience to diagnose and repair the refrigeration systems associated with heat pumps, particularly as described in my first post, however I think the 'plumber' or 'heating engineer' would probably disagree as they will most likely have been on a manufacturers training course.
I have yet to see either type when faced with a refrigeration system to display the confidence or authority to deal with a problem. This comes with years of experience

At the end of the day, once the system has been installed it is they who will be expected to service it or more likely walk away from it and leave it to the true expert who has been side stepped, which is my orginal point.

[Quality]

I agree with your comment about so called heating engineers

I provide a service to a well known heat pump manufacturer on a regular basis simply because I understand the simple heating system but also understand the refrigeration aspect.

a heating engineer as they call them so has very little understanding of a heat pump as to them its a boiler

[MikeHolm]

OK, in terms of official training, I am not a refrigeration engineer but I do have the highest gas ticket in Canada, Electronics technologist (just short of a professional engineer, university) and a few other odds and sods. I have worked with a large number of heating system types (HPs included), and I want to (for ecological and wider technology reasons, not to make a quick buck) over time get into this trade both as a designer and manufacturer and on the tools.

Because I cannot take the time to start as an apprentice grunt from scratch am I not worthy of being in the trade? I have the desire to learn and to practice the trade properly and, no I don't think of the HP as a boiler.

In regards to the first post, the guy who put the system was indeed an idiot as you don't need to be a refrig engineer to understand the basic mistakes he made. You do need to have common sense.

[stufus]

I was asked by a brand name agent to meet a plumber on a domestic site and have a look at a monobloc ASHP .
So i arrived on site to be greated by a guy in spotless snickers gear with more meters and thermometers hanging out of him than i have ever owned (and i've had a few ).I asked what the problem was and he said it only runs for a few seconds and stops.
So I decided to start with a difficult question..Are all valves on the water circuit open??? His reply "of course they are you smart c**t there's nothing wrong with my work it's your f*^king unit".I some how let it slide as for the time being i was the face of the brand.But what came next was the ammo i was waiting for ,"Why is the power off" i asked .Him, because it keeps stopping and flashing on the controller "H something".And the motor gets really hot after a couple of try's there's no water flowing through it ,It's a piece of ****,.So i knocked on the power turned it on and sure enough it tripped on HP Checked the flow and return valves behind the unit which had been fully insulated and found them closed .the bypass valve used as a flushing loop was however open.The plumber returned to spout off again "see i told you" to which i replied i've, got some bad news for you and the customer !
I'll go get him he said.So when they returned i said right you f**king spanner both your flow and return valves were closed and that hot motor is the compressor you numpty ,if there was water flowing through it you'd have serious problems.Oh while were at it by repeatedly resetting that HP fault without consulting us as the manual instructs you have voided the owners warranty.Have a nice day ,By the way if you ever speak to me like that again i will kick seven shades of **** out of you mate.Ring the office !!!
Cheers
Stu

[Magoo]

Mike Holm, are you the guy that does the TV home repair recovery show from Canada, or using the name. Sounds very familar.
magoo

[MikeHolm]

Met him a few times, arrogant prick if truth be told. No contractor in the whole world knows as much as he does, as far as he is concerned. Unfortunately he lived near me, till he got rich and famous. Yea.. people ask about the name all the time and maybe i should pretend to be him..........

[MikeHolm]

I'm way better looking than him as well......

[sparkatan]

Funny isn't it. Maybe the manufacturers should think more deeply about the horse they are backing in future.

[stufus]

At the moment it's all about getting boxes out the door,and getting your machine into the market place whatever the consequences .I dont think i'd be to far of the mark to say that in general terms a fridgeman knows a lot more about plumbing than a plumber knows about refrigeration!
Cheers
Stu

[nevgee]

At the moment it's all about getting boxes out the door,and getting your machine into the market place whatever the consequences .I dont think i'd be to far of the mark to say that in general terms a fridgeman knows a lot more about plumbing than a plumber knows about refrigeration!
Cheers
Stu

I find that most Ref and AC engineers are more aware of basic plumbing techniques than Plumbers are of refrig. It's highly unlikely you would find a plumber never mind find one who had some insight in refrigeration principles.

As for the manufacturers getting out boxes, you are so right. It is about numbers and they dont care who is doing the install. Except it easier for them to use the network in place and not to worry about tech issue with the product as the manufacturer will use their own techy guys to do the commissioning follow up if needed and take up the warranty. This removes the installing Plumber from the responsibility. This is how the Boiler manufacturers do it now.

It's a simple philosophy, keep the kit suficiently simple to install, provide adequate standard application and installation methodolgy so as not to tax the installer too much. Then offer a full tech back up with 100% warranty cover. They will then only need monkeys to do the installs.

[bigDog]

Well, I dont know if i should admit this gents....

But i do have my own gas safe registration and ONLY undertake boiler repair, sometimes a bit more for really good clients....

My reasoning? Every plumber i spoke to over the years simply cannot fault find, cannot use a multimeter properly, does not understand current..... I attent a "condemned" boiler and repair it, where a plumber has condemned it because he doesnt know how to fault find.

Am i a plumber no... But i can repair a boiler and confirm it conforms to the GSIUR better than any heating engineer in my area....

Is that arrogant? Maybe,

im a fridgeman first, boiler fixer upper second and i love doing both.

I dont do the plumbing side of the trade as it is insanely mundane.

[stufus]

I remember doing the gas safe course and plodding through it thinking for gods sake this is ridiculous an apprentice could walk this.The guy on my left was doing ok but became a bit hesitant on one of the fault finding tasks i was watching him and he was so close to getting it ,but kept doubting himself.So i stepped in and just said think of it logically don't move on until your certain and don't go back once you've moved on .Sure enough he figured it out next try and understood what he had done.
The guy on the other side hadn't got a clue where to start never mind finish,and asked could you help me out now? To which i replied No he helped himself heaven couldn't help you mate stick to unblocking toilets it'll be safer for all.
Didn't go down to well.
Cheers
Stu

[nevgee]

......... Every plumber i spoke to over the years simply cannot fault find, cannot use a multimeter properly, does not understand current..... I attent a "condemned" boiler and repair it, where a plumber has condemned it because he doesnt know how to fault find.

Is that arrogant? Maybe,

im a fridgeman first, boiler fixer upper second and i love doing both.

Snap! ..... Couldn't agree more with you ......
Arrogant? No, you just know what you can do and you get on with it.

[Quality]

At the moment it's all about getting boxes out the door,and getting your machine into the market place whatever the consequences .I dont think i'd be to far of the mark to say that in general terms a fridgeman knows a lot more about plumbing than a plumber knows about refrigeration!
Cheers
Stu

I am in a similar boat to yourself with gas safe , niceic etc. I can honestly say I have only met one plumber / heating engineer who has got and knows how to use a multimeter. To be honest in my opinion a fridge engineer has a lot more shall I say noggin about how to understand how stuff works compared with the previous mentioned chaps.

Buy a fridge (or a boiler) and if it dont work call the manufacturer - Install a cabinet, an evaporator or two, a condensing unit then throw in a few controls if it dont work we fix it (us engineers)

[bigDog]

we as a trade need to give ourselves credit for what we know. The electrical aspect of our trade is huge, and always has been.

Whereas a plumber used to only have a gas valve to worry about. Now they have circuit boards, thermisters, air pressure switches, flow meters....

They havent moved with the times at all,

We never had to....

Oh i love bigging ourselves up....

[MikeHolm]

I thought European boiler guys were better than that, given that there is no residential scorched air over there (and let there never be). Lowest common denominator heat.

I will say that, over here, Viessmann does not act that way. There are a lot of courses put on by them and they give a lot of support to the installers but I don't see that from many other manufacturers.

The big reason here is that the hot air business almost killed the wet head business since WW2 and in our neck of the woods, the only official training and apprenticeship is called "steamfitter". There has not been a new steam heated resi building in 80 years so only industrial dudes do it and typically through the union (to which most of us don't belong)

[sparkatan]

In the February edition of the H&V News there is an article entitled ' Back to school on air source heat pumps' The author describes a training course on the Ecodan air-source heat pump which he attended at Mitsubishi Electric's Hatfield Premises. The training, for both employees and self-employed installers ranging from heating and plumbing to air conditioning.

He quotes the trainer saying 'While maintenance requirements essentially required keeping the unit clean, care should also be taken to ensure the fins of the heat exchanger remained straight. These could become bent, especially as the unit is placed outside and subject to a number of possible scenarios. The purchase of a fin comb was recommended to straighten fins and maintain efficient operation'.

Whilst this is teaching the experienced refrigeration engineer to suck eggs, it is probably vital information to the type of people Mitsubishi are hoping will carry the mantle for them, however, the next paragraph is more disturbing.

'The units are not currently affected by F-Gas regulations as the limits are currently set at 3kg, or 6kg for hermetically sealed versions. Even if the limits are reduced, compliance with the regulations would be simple. Installers would need to organise a leak test once a year, which was described as 'very easy to do'

Now, is the Mitsbishi expert referring to the organisation being easy to do or the leak test.
If the latter, well thanks very much Mr Mitsubishi, and I take it the plumbers and heating engineers you are courting are F-Gas certified.

[nevgee]

ANd in time there will be the odd unit that requires some attention, a relay or board will go down, the average Joe Plumber will check the fault codes and phone the tech help line. He'll swap out parts and hope that solves the problem. What if then something in the refrig circuit fails, how will he deal with that? Or do we assume that Mistubishi /Daikin etc will take up the job by sending in a trained up Heat Pump Engineer?

I can see why the manufaturers are focusing on the Plumbers, as they are the ones with the unvented heating system certificates. The ethos probably being to get the product out there first, and then worry about service and back up later.

[Quality]

What if then something in the refrig circuit fails, how will he deal with that? Or do we assume that Mistubishi /Daikin etc will take up the job by sending in a trained up Heat Pump Engineer?

This is exactly what I have been doing for a well known manufacturer for a about 3/4 years.

All within warranty and all simple jobs i.e. compressors , expansion valve and cracked pipes.

They will have to get in to the stride of employing their own or training a plumber !!!!!!!!

[frank]

In the February edition of the H&V News there is an article entitled ' Back to school on air source heat pumps' The author describes a training course on the Ecodan air-source heat pump which he attended at Mitsubishi Electric's Hatfield Premises. The training, for both employees and self-employed installers ranging from heating and plumbing to air conditioning.

We can't buy Ecodan units directly from Mitsubishi as we don't have anyone directly employed that has 'Plumbing' qualifications.

Does this make any sense? NO.

[yinmorrison]

I was at a local Heritage Centre ( open plan ) recently with a Daikin Altherma ASHP installed within the Building and it served the radiator circuit of the segregated offices ( not exactly the best way of getting the required heat output as the radiators were not oversized to suit ) Also the same guy had installed a Warm Air heater at the opposite end of the Building some 50M long ,expecting it to get the warm air to circulate properly. We ended up installing ductwork the length of the Building to distribute better and turning the Altherma unit through 180Deg and short duct to outside via a Louvre.Still not ideal but at least it was not trying to cool the place, albeit still using the air from within the building.So they gained slightly but at least the place gets up to temperature now.
Things like this are going to happen when the Technology is not understood properly by Plumbing/Heating Contractors.

[nevgee]

This is exactly what I have been doing for a well known manufacturer for a about 3/4 years.

All within warranty and all simple jobs i.e. compressors , expansion valve and cracked pipes.

We do the same and it's of no suprise that the majority of our calls find most faults to be with the lphw system and associated controls. When the calls come in it's not unusual for us to be advised that the unit has a "gas problem" and may need re gassing! So I recon someone must have been doing some training somewhere, and it's nice to be given helpful advise. How would we ever manage without such support.!

[eggs]

I suppose I have been naughty tonight.....

Gas boiler running up fine, heating water up ok, failing to heat up the rads........

Called up the local hero for a laugh to hear his diagnosis, he condemned the boiler........the tw@t. ( I already knew what the problem was)

A quick change of the sync motor had the family toasty in no time.

Wife loves me, kids love me, saved a £grand or two£............oh and I'm not Gas Safe registered. Does that make me a bad person????

Bring on the heatpumps.

Eggs

[eggs]

Sorry, forgot to add the point of my post.

Are we wrong to prefer our own skills in a related trade to that of others qualified, but perhaps less diligent?

Eggs

[desA]

A new breed of hot-water, or heat-recovery engineer is required. A hybrid between a/c, plumbing & electrical would be useful. This could, in all likelihood, develop as its own trade, or discipline.

[MikeHolm]

A new breed of hot-water, or heat-recovery engineer is required. A hybrid between a/c, plumbing & electrical would be useful. This could, in all likelihood, develop as its own trade, or discipline.

It might happen in the UK or elsewhere but I doubt it would happen in North America, at least in a organized way, as we are still the wild west where the right to hang out a sign and call yourself an expert outweighs (some of) the publics' desire and tradition of having a trustworthy recognized trade.

[Gary]

A new breed of hot-water, or heat-recovery engineer is required. A hybrid between a/c, plumbing & electrical would be useful. This could, in all likelihood, develop as its own trade, or discipline.

I thought we all fit that description.

[stufus]

A new breed of hot-water, or heat-recovery engineer is required. A hybrid between a/c, plumbing & electrical would be useful. This could, in all likelihood, develop as its own trade, or discipline.

I think i know someone who fits the criteria
Cheers
Stu