F-Gas Cert. Company Certif. Renewal

[Peter_1]

I was wondering in the different EU countries:

How long is your personal certificate valid?
In Belgium 5 years

What's the price for an exam?
In Belgium between 550 and 600 €

Does every person needs a certificate or only 1/company (a responsible who watch everything goes as required in the F-gas regulation)?
In the Dutch speaking parts of Belgium every person, in the French speaking part only 1/company.

Does the company needs an additional certificate?
In Belgium, company needs another additional certificate.

What's the price for a company control?
In Belgium: 900€

If so, how long is this company certificate valid?
2 years in Belgium.

Do you know of controls on logbooks and fines already given?
Logbook not properly logged: 1.000 € for the technician and 1.000 € for the end-user because there was no logbook available.

[Quality]

Thats a lot of questions

but I will add my bit on the certification period

In the UK there are 2 certificating bodies. one is said to be for good the other is re-assessed every 5 years

mandatory certification has to be re-assessed every 5 years within the EU for any industry competence

so in short its 5 years

[nevgee]

I'm not quite up to speed with this but I understand;

a) In UK any person handling refrigerants must be qualified to do so. Two schemes, one is a lifetime qualification, until the regs change. The other is 5 yrs.

b) Any company or business including self employed, one man operations must be registered with an approved certifying body.
Business registration/certification confirms that business has at least one qualified person, though all qualified personel should be registered through the scheme. I believe this certification lasts 5 years. Therefore anyone who works with refrigerants will need to be assesssed every 5 years.

[nevgee]

Costs for "f" gas qualifaction can vary from a say £200 to £1500 depending on the course and skill level of the entrant.

[Robert Hilton]

The Netherlands,
Your personal certificate is not dated
I took the STEK exam in 1993 and exchanged it last year for the F-gas. I retain my original registration number, so it will continue untill I no longer work for a STEK/F-gas registered company. The old regulation was that you were only a qualified technician by having a STEK certificate, and being directly employed by a STEK registered company.

The cost of company certification depends on whether you just want to be F-gas or F-gas and STEK registered.

We're usually checked out every 18-24 months, with a major check every 6 years.

[nema]

Has anyone done the F-gas recently?
I am due to do it next month (3 day course)and have not studied for many moons?
Any exam tips or has anyone past papers I can have a look at.
would be grateful for any advise.

Cheers

[NIKK38]

If you do a search online, you'll find a wealth of information and some test questions relating to 2079.

The theory is 40 questions in 80 mins (Cat 1), all multiple choice, 60% is a pass.

Where are you doing yours ? You should get a course book before you start. I say should, as some did, I didn't.


Good luck.

[RSTC]

In Ireland everybody handling F-Gases needs certification; that means C&G2079-11 (though there is a FETAC equivalent).

Owners must ensure that they employ a F-Gas Registered company. F-Gas Registration for RAC companies costs from €100 to €500 depending on size of company. www.fgasregistration.ie

For anybody interested, EPA have a series of free seminars in Cork, Dublin and Galway on the 23 Feb, 9 Mar and 13 Apr. They will talk about the legislation and the responsibilities for the Owners and contractors.

[frank]

Do you know of controls on logbooks and fines already given?
Logbook not properly logged: 1.000 € for the technician and 1.000 € for the end-user because there was no logbook available.

Whose responsibility is it for ensuring that the Log Book in in force. The Engineer or the Customer?

My understanding is that it is the Customers responsibility, here in the UK.

[taz24]

Whose responsibility is it for ensuring that the Log Book in in force. The Engineer or the Customer?

My understanding is that it is the Customers responsibility, here in the UK.

My understanding is the log book is the responsibility of the customer,
but the engineer has a duty to fill one out.

If the customer loses it or does not have one the engineer can't be held responsible.

taz

.

[nevgee]

My understanding is the log book is the responsibility of the customer,
but the engineer has a duty to fill one out.

If the customer loses it or does not have one the engineer can't be held responsible.

taz

.

Under the duty of care is it not also the responsibility of the engineer to advise the client of his (client) responsibility? If the client doesn't know about "f" gas he certainly will not have a "log" book and how is he to get one? Would it not be simpler for the engineer to just write up a log sheet and leave it with the client, making a note on his service sheet that it was done. This removes the legal responsibility from the engineer, duty of care completed, onto the client who has now been duly advised.

You can get log sheets from wholesalers, I just made one up on a spread sheet and then keep one up to date for each customer. Takes two minutes and keeps the client happy.

[Robert Hilton]

Indeed in the Netherlands, the owner (end user) is responsible for log book (in the presence of the reefer) the tekkie has to fill in/add the relative documentation dependant on work carried out.

[taz24]

Under the duty of care is it not also the responsibility of the engineer to advise the client of his (client) responsibility? If the client doesn't know about "f" gas he certainly will not have a "log" book and how is he to get one? Would it not be simpler for the engineer to just write up a log sheet and leave it with the client, making a note on his service sheet that it was done. This removes the legal responsibility from the engineer, duty of care completed, onto the client who has now been duly advised.

You can get log sheets from wholesalers, I just made one up on a spread sheet and then keep one up to date for each customer. Takes two minutes and keeps the client happy.

Yes mate.

As Engineers we have a duty to our customers to advise them to
conform to fgas.

I would advise all people dealing with customers to have a small
claus in your work sheet / job done sign off sheets that states
somthing along the lines of

By singning this document you are stating that you know you must conform to Fgas requirements.

Or other words to the effect of. Because if a customer ever gets
prossicuted for non conformance then they will want to pass the
buck. By having that claus in your small print you are protecting yourself.

As much as this is about the environment it is also about accountability.
If you can't prove you are doing it correctly they will have you.

all the best

taz

.

[djbe]

Yes mate.

As Engineers we have a duty to our customers to advise them to
conform to fgas.


.

As I understand it strictly we don't. It is up to the customer to be aware of his obligations under current law unless he has signed off responsibility to his engineer/maintenance company.

I am not saying we wouldn't advise any customer of their legal obligations but they cannot pass the buck, if they are running refrigeration equipment it is their responsibility to be aware of the requirements.

[cool_kid]

Yes mate.

As Engineers we have a duty to our customers to advise them to
conform to fgas.

I would advise all people dealing with customers to have a small
claus in your work sheet / job done sign off sheets that states
somthing along the lines of

By singning this document you are stating that you know you must conform to Fgas requirements.

Or other words to the effect of. Because if a customer ever gets
prossicuted for non conformance then they will want to pass the
buck. By having that claus in your small print you are protecting yourself.

As much as this is about the environment it is also about accountability.
If you can't prove you are doing it correctly they will have you.

all the best

taz

.

Whilst I totally agree with the sentiment, I'm not so sure that anybody (or should that be any body) will have any realistic powers of enforcement. It's hardly like Defra are swimming in cash these days is it?

[taz24]

Whilst I totally agree with the sentiment, I'm not so sure that anybody (or should that be any body) will have any realistic powers of enforcement. It's hardly like Defra are swimming in cash these days is it?

.

Don't you believe it.

The powers are there and have been since 2009.
The manpower is already there, EHO's (Environmental Health Oficers)
are already at work checking the premises for all
the other things they do.

The EHO will just add the Fgas register on their check list.
They do not need to know about fridge or AC but they
do know about the box ticking and T crossing.

Most of Fgas will be a paper suffling execise and they will
want to make a prossicution within the first six months after July.

All the best

taz

.

[Quality]

.

Don't you believe it.

The powers are there and have been since 2009.
The manpower is already there, EHO's (Environmental Health Oficers)
are already at work checking the premises for all
the other things they do.

The EHO will just add the Fgas register on their check list.
They do not need to know about fridge or AC but they
do know about the box ticking and T crossing.

Most of Fgas will be a paper suffling execise and they will
want to make a prossicution within the first six months after July.

All the best

taz

.

Have to agree there, after July will be there will definatley be one or two people who are caught out thinking they would get away with.

[stufus]

You can put your house on the fact that whoever gets done first for non compliance will have their plums nailed firmly to the wall .
The EHO's generally don't mess around and are fond of making examples of people.
We all know "it's" coming around ,we just don't know exactly what it is.
Time will tell all.
For example if a client of mine was to be hit hard for not having a log book ,even if I kept my own log for their site,with our industry being so close-knit when word got out it wouldn't look to good on my profile.
We all know loose lips sink ships and there are plenty about who would happily stand back and stoke the fires whilst courting the client.
Remember sh^t sticks
As Taz said better we cross our own T'S and dot our own I's ,prevention is better than cure
Cheers
Stu

[matt p]

Hi stu,

I'll add a +1 to your post!.

The EHO's are just interested in seeing graphs and sheets to say that people have been on site carrying the weekly legionella tasks etc. Boy don't we know about it when a certain piece of paper has jot been signed off or records for the graphs not filled in!.

At present any site I'm going to where we currently do not have an F-Gas logbook as such I'm advising them that one will be made up and delivered to site. From my personal view is that if we have a maintenance agreement with them it's upto to my company to provide the correct logbooks for site.

At present all the larger contracts/multiple buildings from one managing agent have been catered for but it's the small sites and odd floors I'm having trouble with in getting round to them and checking. In two weeks of being tasked with this by my company I've already found 9 sites that don't have logs.

Lots of work invloved now, one question though is what else is needed to become Refcom registered?.

From what I know so far is,

1) - logbooks for all sites containing refrigerant
2) - Logs to be filled out by qualified personal and details kept of leaks found.
3) - a clear paper trail to show that quotes are being sent out notifying the client that under current
legislation there system needs to repaired to prevent further leakage.
4) - a clear paper trail showing the direction of cylinders from suppliers to sites then back to suppliers.
5) - logs of the one month follow up visits.

Once this is all in place and up and running is it a case of notifying refcom and asking then to come out and inspect the company before being registered?.

Regards

Matt

You can put your house on the fact that whoever gets done first for non compliance will have their plums nailed firmly to the wall .
The EHO's generally don't mess around and are fond of making examples of people.
We all know "it's" coming around ,we just don't know exactly what it is.
Time will tell all.
For example if a client of mine was to be hit hard for not having a log book ,even if I kept my own log for their site,with our industry being so close-knit when word got out it wouldn't look to good on my profile.
We all know loose lips sink ships and there are plenty about who would happily stand back and stoke the fires whilst courting the client.
Remember sh^t sticks
As Taz said better we cross our own T'S and dot our own I's ,prevention is better than cure
Cheers
Stu

[Tradewinds]

Hi guys,
There's another angle we may not be covering here and thats the role of the AC Inspector. Part of the inspection is to assess the performance of the maintenance contracting company to make sure they are qualified to carry out the work. Not only that, but are they doing a good job at maximising the efficiency of the AC system. So they're looking for company registration and details, assessing refrigerant usage on an annual basis, log books, regular leak checks in line with F Gas regs plus all the other methods of improving the energy efficiency of the HVAC systems. All this gets documented in the report and handed to the client with recommendations.
So the effect can be two fold. If the contractor is not doing their job properly, it will be asked why (from the client) or at the other end of the scale if they are doing a good job but the ACI identifies ways to save more energy, then it is likely that the contractor will pick up this work. All in all, I think AC Inspectors are acting as scout's and doing a lot of the ground work.

[matt p]

Didn't realise that it was an energy saving drive behind this too.

Thanks for the heads up regarding this I'll put this forward to the management and see how they would like to approach it. If this is the case, this is getting a little above me with regarding the procedures in how to deal direct with the clients and inspectors as I'm still a spanner monkey :-)

Regards

Matt

Hi guys,
There's another angle we may not be covering here and thats the role of the AC Inspector. Part of the inspection is to assess the performance of the maintenance contracting company to make sure they are qualified to carry out the work. Not only that, but are they doing a good job at maximising the efficiency of the AC system. So they're looking for company registration and details, assessing refrigerant usage on an annual basis, log books, regular leak checks in line with F Gas regs plus all the other methods of improving the energy efficiency of the HVAC systems. All this gets documented in the report and handed to the client with recommendations.
So the effect can be two fold. If the contractor is not doing their job properly, it will be asked why (from the client) or at the other end of the scale if they are doing a good job but the ACI identifies ways to save more energy, then it is likely that the contractor will pick up this work. All in all, I think AC Inspectors are acting as scout's and doing a lot of the ground work.

[cool_kid]

I had an interesting chat with someone from REFCOM the other day, there's a certain amount of uncertainty as to who is responsible for what. Whilst the paper trail will always catch some out it would seem that if you are not in the largest 200 a/c companies (not sure if that means manufacturers or sales and service) in the country you're going to be flying in under the radar. (The only certainty was the legal onus is on the operative carrying out any task rather than corporate responsibility). There was mention of local authority/HSE and even food safety authorities being involved. I might be acting a bit wet behind the ears here but I can only see things being overlooked with so many cooks spoiling the broth.

Most of this was incidental as I was researching legal enforcement of strength and tightness tests pressures and durations after getting some pretty woolly answers from the IOR. I've been sent the megabyte equivalent of a tree so I'll read, digest, question and put anything of use up here.

.

Don't you believe it.

The powers are there and have been since 2009.
The manpower is already there, EHO's (Environmental Health Oficers)
are already at work checking the premises for all
the other things they do.

The EHO will just add the Fgas register on their check list.
They do not need to know about fridge or AC but they
do know about the box ticking and T crossing.

Most of Fgas will be a paper suffling execise and they will
want to make a prossicution within the first six months after July.

All the best

taz

.

[Tradewinds]

Hi Cool_Kid,
I always refer back to BS EN 378 for questions on the RAC standards. It's important to be able to prove to the client that we are working to industry standards. It also helps when justifying the time it takes to do things.

I think every company should have a copy. You can get them here if you need to:
http://tradewindsgroup.co.uk/shop/

I've also been having similar conversations with F Gas Support as I wanted clarification on offences and penalties. I had questions like:
Whats the penalty for-
1. venting refrigerant to atmosphere
2. non compliance for individual or company registration by July deadline
3. failure of operator to leak check, maintain records, etc, etc
They were hard pressed to give me a straight answer but here is what they did say.

"The regulatory process is outlined below and applies to any offence of non compliance with the EC F gas Regulation, and to any or all parties concerned. You have raised a few points that we would like to comment firstly on as follows:
1) City & Guilds 2079 is not the only qualification; personnel may also hold Construction Skills CITB J11-14 – the category is dependent on the activity undertaken, please see RAC 5 attached for more details.
2) Disposal of refrigerant oil is governed by waste regulations, not the EC F gas Regulation. We are unable to advise on waste regulations. In England and Wales, this is classed as hazardous waste. Please contact the Environment Agency for further detail. Web: http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk...ste/32180.aspx Tel: 0845 6031043. In Scotland this is classed as special waste. Please contact SEPA for further information. Web: http://www.sepa.org.uk Tel: 01786 457700
3) It is not a requirement of the EC F gas Regulation for contractors to track refrigerant use. There is a requirement for certain records to be kept regarding HCFCs, this is under the EC Ozone Regulation. See RAC 8 for details.
4) There is no such thing as an ‘F gas register’. If this is a central inventory that you refer to, this is not a requirement of the regulation; however is a sensible way for organizations to understand their obligations for equipment they operate. There is a requirement for operators of stationary RAC equipment containing 3 kg or more of F gas or HCFCs to keep certain records. (6kg if hermetically sealed and labelled as such). See RAC 3 sections 4 and 5 for operator obligations and RAC 6 for detail on record keeping requirements.
5) Many of the obligations you have listed already apply, such as the requirement for operators to ensure leak checks are carried out. The ‘deadline’ of 4 July 2011 only applies to the requirements for stationary RAC personnel to hold a full F gas qualification and for stationary RAC companies that employ personnel undertaking installation, servicing and maintenance activities to hold a full Company Certificate. See RAC 5 for further detail.
Regulation:
The following details the actions the regulators can take, please also see attached summary of regulatory activities to date.
In the first place if you have concerns about whether companies operating in this sector are appropriately qualified you can advise us and we will write to them. If we were not satisfied by the response we would determine the most appropriate action with the support of Defra and Local Government Regulation.
The EC F gas Regulation (copy attached) came into force in the UK on 4th July 2007, as an EU regulation it applies directly in member states. Defra introduced domestic legislation in March 2009, (SI no 261, also attached) detailing enforcement, offences and penalties now applicable under UK law.
Depending on the type of organisation, existing permits or relationships , the Local Authority or the Environment Agency (or SEPA or NIEHS) will be the regulator under the EC F gas and Ozone Regulations.
If a Local Authority is the regulator, a variety of authority departments could take action, this will depend on the type of authority, for example whether it is a unitary or district council. Also the existing relationships between local authorities and organisations will affect the decision - so if certain departments already have a Local Authority agreement or relationship with an organisation in their region it is likely they would take the lead. It is expected that Trading Standards, Environmental Health, Food Safety would be the regulator.
The regulatory approach planned is risk based focussed on the biggest emitters and led by F-Gas Support in the first instance so proactive enforcement by the regulator is not part of the main regulatory activity at this stage. These biggest emitters are detailed in the LACORS Market Intelligence and Risk-Based Implementation Model http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...eport-1107.pdf
Please see attached document GB F gas Regulations SI 261. In Part 4 of this document, there are specific sections on ‘miscellaneous’ and ‘corporate offences’ as defined in the Regulation.
Regulators have a range of options at their disposal to protect the environment and will use the option or options it believes will best ensure compliance with these Regulations. If an organization does not comply with these Regulations, the action taken by the regulator may include:
· Providing targeted advice and guidance to an organization to secure compliance.
· Serving an "enforcement notice". An authorized person may serve an enforcement notice if they are of the opinion that a person has contravened, is contravening or is likely to contravene relevant requirements of the Regulations. The contents of an enforcement notice must include a description of the contravention, specification of steps that would be a suitable remedy and a date by which time the remedies must be in effect.
· Serving a "prohibition notice". A regulator will use this type of notice where specific requirements are contravened or there is a risk that they will be contravened and such contravention will involve "an imminent danger of serious pollution of the environment". Prohibition notices allow the Regulator to insist on a piece of equipment or even a whole site being shut down.
If the regulators actions did not lead to the required improvements then they may decide to prosecute the company or individual concerned. This would be a criminal prosecution. Summary conviction refers to the way in which a case is tried, as follows:
In England and Wales offences can be tried either summarily (i.e. in the Magistrate’s court without a jury) or on indictment (in the Crown Court with a jury). The criminal prosecution would usually begin in the Magistrate’s court. The more serious offences would be sent by the Magistrate to the Crown Court for trial by jury. The less serious offences would most likely be tried by the Magistrate. A defendant can elect to be tried in a Crown Court if they prefer this to a Magistrates Court.
The penalties depend on where an offence is tried. In a Magistrates Court the penalty would be a fine not exceeding £5,000, the statutory maximum, on summary conviction. There could be an unlimited fine on conviction in the Crown Court."

I hope you find this useful.