Altherma Heat Pumps Setting up

[dan137uk]

Hi all and merry xmas.

I we live in the uk and at the moment it`s very cold
we have just moved into our new build property,
the problem is the heating company that installed our Daikin altherma has gone bankrupt and i can`t get them to answer any calls
They fired up the system and told me a few things ie setting up time /heating times and thats it.(to be honest if i had seen there workmanship before hand i would have got in someone else, i don`t think they had a clue how to set the thing up.

Its been running on econ 10 so it heats up the floor for 10 hours during the day/night but its never got above 20 in any of the rooms (underfloor heating) i have moved the heating up on the altherma to 50deg but still no joy, the underfloor heating pump is set at second speed the altherma pump is on speed 2 if i move it up to 3 i get a 7h fault which i believe is flow problem. Is there away of factory resetting the system and starting a fresh going right back to basics and reprogramming the system.

any ideas would be most grateful

[Stuart Walker]

The system needs to run for more than 10 hours a day, and in the current weather may needs some help as system design is normally 21 degree rooms at -5 degree outside

If you know how to, start by taking the timed settings out of the system and just let the thermostatic controls do the on and off, I know it will seem strange to be heating then house 24/7 but you need to get comfortable before worrying about cost, once you are happy with the temp and Christmas is out the way get someone in who can set the system up correctly, if you are unsure call the Daikin Altherma help desk who will put you in touch with a service partner

We can help but I am not going to use the forum for advertising without paying our way

[dan137uk]

Hi Stuart Merry Christmas thanks for the help have had a couple of days off so had a little play with system have removed all the times so on 24/7 got it removed from econ 10, now its running 24/7 letting rooms control the heating, the trouble is now is it's tripping the system out 7H flow fault we have underfloor heating (poly-plumb) with a pump fitted is the pump required for the heating or can the Altherma pump do the whole system also how do you get into the settings to check if "21 degree rooms at -5 degree outside"is correct
many thanks
Dan

[Stuart Walker]

The 7h flow fault could be being caused by the secondary pump running when the Altherma is not, or it could be down to the fact that there is restricted flow in the primary system on the way to the underfloor manifolds, make sure that the bypass valve is set correctly so that when the underfloors are satisfied the primary pump in the Altherma can still move the minimum 12 litres a minute, the pump in the Altherma should be able to cope with most jobs without the aid of a secondary pump so removing it from the system could be the answer

Stuart

[wozza]

Stuart,
If the secondary pump was running when the Altherma pump was not, the sytem would come up with a C0 fault.
I agree with making sure the by-pass is set correctly as when all the actuators shut down the flow would decrease and the resistance increase.

[dan137uk]

[IMG]htp://download.polypipe.com/productimages/picture_69828.jpg[/IMG]
Guys is this the problem its a picture off the underfloor manifold pump set up, i thought that the thermostatic valve would act as a bypass valve is this not the case, now getting ;lots of 7H faults as the system is now getting up to temp, is it better just to take the pump out completely

cheers
Dan

[Stuart Walker]

Wozza is right about the C0 code so I would put the issues down to the secondary pump, removing it should be ok, however ensure that the bypass is fitted

[Gibbo]

just interested about the underfloor aspect what sort of design water temps would this type of heat pump supply into the house and what would be maximum and minimum ambient temps.

[Stuart Walker]

The Altherma will provide flow of up to 50 degrees with a delta T of 5 degrees, however the lower the flow design the better

[Gibbo]

Thanks Stuart

[dan137uk]

The bypass valve would this be fitted around the underfloor manifold on around the area of the Altherma, had a good look upstairs where the altherma is sited and all that's up there is a 3port valve
cheers
Dan

[dan137uk]

just another quick question would an Engineer go into the field setting at commissioning or just leave it in default, the reason i ask is after downloading the installation manual and looking at the field settings i would say the boy who fitted the system would not have a clue it was bad enough getting him to show me the way to set the time

[1torr]

Hi , I've had this a few times on various sites. You need a by pass(mabe a towel rail) or use the volt free enable within the under floor controller if there is one to enable the hydrobox across terminals 1 and 4 and set bit switch to suit external stat option. Make sure your strainer is clean also. ps where are you? Cheers

[VRVIII]

Hi all and merry xmas.

I we live in the uk and at the moment it`s very cold
we have just moved into our new build property,
the problem is the heating company that installed our Daikin altherma has gone bankrupt and i can`t get them to answer any calls
They fired up the system and told me a few things ie setting up time /heating times and thats it.(to be honest if i had seen there workmanship before hand i would have got in someone else, i don`t think they had a clue how to set the thing up.

Its been running on econ 10 so it heats up the floor for 10 hours during the day/night but its never got above 20 in any of the rooms (underfloor heating) i have moved the heating up on the altherma to 50deg but still no joy, the underfloor heating pump is set at second speed the altherma pump is on speed 2 if i move it up to 3 i get a 7h fault which i believe is flow problem. Is there away of factory resetting the system and starting a fresh going right back to basics and reprogramming the system.

any ideas would be most grateful

Hi Dan,

Just a couple of questions / suggestions

What is the model number of the Hydobox (size 8 or 16 / AB or BA series?)

None of the Altherma field settings can cause or prevent an 7H error

I can’t see how it is possible that the unit trips on low flow when the pump speed is increased are you sure the pump is actually operating when high speed is selected? The pump could be faulty.

Have you checked that the water filter within the Hydrobox is clean?

What size and type of pipe is connected to the hydobox and manifold? Ideally this should be 28mm copper at Hydrobox and 22mm at the manifold to obtain design flow rates & min water volume.

Have you checked the temperature difference across the flow and return pipes at the Hydrobox when operating in heating when water loop temperature is 5 less than set point. Ideally the difference should be around 5 C.

Does the unit reach set point and eventually switch off? Or does the unit run continuously and never reaches set point? If so what is the max temperature the system achieves?

Is there a bypass reg valve installed?
Are pumps set up to operate simultaneously?
Do you have zone control valves?

The flow switch is preset to trip around 12L/m however this a safety device and the nominal flow rate for a size 8 system is 24L/m, if a system is operating with a low flow rate it will in turn result in reduced capacity.

If a bypass reg valve is installed this should be installed as far away from the Hydobox as possible to ensure the minimum water volume is met when valve is bypassing. (min water volume size 8 = 10L / size 16 = 20L)

[wozza]

dan137,
Do you get enough hot water? You said you had a three port valve, so this would be to divert the flow to either the tank or underfloor system.
To me it looks like the system is getting upto temperature, the actuators are shutting down and decreasing the flowwhich in turn is creating the 7h Fault.
If it is to much expense to remove the pump or put a bypass in, try and leave one loop fully open i.e thermostat on this will create a perminant bypass.

[dan137uk]

What is the model number of the Hydobox (size 8 or 16 / AB or BA series?)

its a EKHBH008AA3V3

None of the Altherma field settings can cause or prevent an 7H error

I can’t see how it is possible that the unit trips on low flow when the pump speed is increased are you sure the pump is actually operating when high speed is selected? The pump could be faulty.

THE UNDERFLOOR SYSTEM IS MADE BY POLYPLUMB WITH ITS OWN PUMP AND I THINKS ITS GOT A BYPASS ON IT

Have you checked that the water filter within the Hydrobox is clean?
CLEANED OUT THE FILTER THERE WAS A LITTLE DIRT COVERING THE FILTER


What size and type of pipe is connected to the hydobox and manifold? Ideally this should be 28mm copper at Hydrobox and 22mm at the manifold to obtain design flow rates & min water volume.

28MM PIPE FEEDING THE UNDERFLOOR

Have you checked the temperature difference across the flow and return pipes at the Hydrobox when operating in heating when water loop temperature is 5 less than set point. Ideally the difference should be around 5 C.

Does the unit reach set point and eventually switch off? Or does the unit run continuously and never reaches set point? If so what is the max temperature the system achieves?
I CAN NOW GET THE UNIT TO SWITCH OFF BY LOWERING ALL MY ROOM STATS DOWN BUT IT FIRES UP NOT LONG AFTER AND SEEMS TO RUN ALL DAY AND NIGHT
I HAVE SWITCHED OVER TO WEATHER DEPENDANT AND HAVE IT ON +2

Is there a bypass reg valve installed?
I THINK IT HAS A THERMOSTATIC ONE FITTED TO UNDERFLOOR I ALSO HAVE A SPARE WAY ON MY UNDERFLOOR MANIFOLD SO I COULD JUST MAKE A LOOP UP AND RESTRICT THE FLOW VIA THE VALVE

Are pumps set up to operate simultaneously?
NO POLYPLUMB ALWAYS RUNNING ALTHERMA KICKS IN WHEN CALLED FOR (SET ON SPEED II NO FLOW FAULTS WHEN THIS IS SET)
Do you have zone control valves?
YES 7 ZONES ALL WITH STATS

The flow switch is preset to trip around 12L/m however this a safety device and the nominal flow rate for a size 8 system is 24L/m, if a system is operating with a low flow rate it will in turn result in reduced capacity.

If a bypass reg valve is installed this should be installed as far away from the Hydobox as possible to ensure the minimum water volume is met when valve is bypassing. (min water volume size 8 = 10L / size 16 = 20L)

COULD DO THIS BY USING SPARE ZONE
ALSO I HAVE A EON ELECTRIC MONITOR ITS THROUGH THE ROOF AT THE MO, AS I HAVE THE UNDERFLOOR ON 24-7 READINGS OF 2-3 KW 3-4KW
THE UNDERFLOOR HEATING SYSTEM CAN ONLY DO 5-6 LTR PER MIN PER ZONE DONT KNOW IF THIS IS ANY GOOD, HAVE NOW SET SO ALL ZONES DO 2-3LTR PER MIN IF I BUMP UP THE SPEED ON THE UNDERFLOOR PUMP I CAN GET UP TO ABOUT 4-5 BUT NEVER 6
CHEERS GUYS FOR ALL YOUR HELP SO FAR ITS A BIG HELP.

[dan137uk]

Hi all just fitted a bypass in the underfloor heating spare way on manifold letting it pass about 5-6ltr per min will let you know how it is over the next few days
also next friday e on coming out to put the system onto econ 18 i will be running it 18hours a day i know this is not idea but better than ten hours
Also is there anybody willing to book me in for a job setting the unit up for me. i live in Norfolk,

cheers
Dan

[jimmy wilkes]

sounds like uve been dropped in it.it is possible to run those two pumps&much more.let me know if your needing more assistance

[brunstar]

dan, underfloor loops generally do not have a flow rate that high, most of then do not have a flow rate through them of greater than 2-3l per min.
Make sure that you do not just put a loop on the manifold as the water will go through the loop and not through the underfloor circuits which can cycle the unit off if the return comes back too warm.
It is important that a pressure regulated by pass as far away from the hydrobox as possible on the space heating side of the circuit but before the underfloor manifolds or zone valves.

[dan137uk]

Hi brunstar, so do you think what i have done is wrong then. as all i have done is used a spare zone to loop back in to the return part of the manifold.the temp going in is now 35 and coming back around 4-5 deg lower i will try and close the loop up a little and see what happens,

cheers
for all your help

Dan

[brunstar]

Dan,
I am not saying that you are wrong but a pressure regulated by pass is better so that there is no by pass and the flow is going through the underfloor loops until such time that the zones valves start to close and then the by pass will come into play so that you are making the water work and go through the underfloor and not just mixing the flow with the return.

[dan137uk]

Cheers Brunstar will get that sorted next, just found out that the flow and return are the wrong way round after a day of tracing pipes,at this point i have to laugh my own fault for not doing a lot of research into installers in my area, just changed over legs and what a difference very quite but not getting a C0 fault i think a year or more fighting the flows might have killed the flow switch, cheers for all your help people, now feel i have turned a corner. now going to get an engineer in to re-commission the whole thing.

[dan137uk]

Hello all again, just a little update just fitted a couple of relays into system one from the 3port valve and the other from the pump signal which now killers the secondary pump when hot water demand is called for. seems to working a treat fingers crossed, hope this is the end. if anybody needs the drawing i can email it over, cheers
Dan

[dan137uk]

ps cheers to Steve from daikin for the info on relays (top fella)

[brunstar]

glad you got it sorted..