Engineer Definition

[botrous]

Can anybody define what an engineer in general term is .
and what's a refrigeration engineer , who gives the title , what are the minimum requirments to become an engineer , more specifically a refrigeration engineer ?????????????

[Deejey]

Usually it applies to a person who uses science and math to design, build or operate equipment, structures and systems (A person who receives a college degree in engineering might be an electrical, mechanical, industrial, chemical, environmental, biochemical or aeronautical engineer.)
Here in Australia you can undertake a Diploma of Engineering (refrigeration and airconditioning), 920 hours or an Advanced Diploma of Engineering (refrigeration and airconditioning strand), 1520 hours

To become a refrigeration and airconditioning associate you usually have to complete a certificate IV, diploma or advanced diploma majoring in refrigeration and airconditioning engineering or technology. Entry to the courses below usually requires Year 12 with English and maths and/or higher maths.

[welsh__boy]

Engineer is derived from the word "engine" and is a generic term used for anyone who works in a mechanical capacity.

Over the years, like many words in the English language, the word has evolved to mean different things to different people but still the general perception is someone that works in some sort of technical capacity or "engineers" schemas.

A civil engineer will design buidings, bridges etc. working out stress factors and all that sort of stuff.

A network engineer will design and/or maintain a computer network.

A chemical engineer will work with biological and/or chemical agents.

An electrical engineer will work with electrical schema.

Now, you tell me what have they all got in common?

The only thing that they have in common is the term "engineer". The jobs are worlds apart, just as these jobs are from ours. Yet the fact remains that any technical job or a job involving the maintenence or design of mechanical devices are regarded as "engineering".

So since we work with mechanical devices why shouldn't we be labelled as engineers?

[frank]

So since we work with mechanical devices why shouldn't we be labelled as engineers?

Of all the trades you have mentioned, the Engineers are all capable of producing designs based on mathmatical formula.

If a trades person is capable of such detail in writing then I agree that he may be called an "Engineer"

Most, but not all, refrigeration trades persons that work to maintain or install the equipment in a hands on way do not know how to create such designs or formula but are capable of executing the work, and, IMHO, these persons should officially be called mechanics or technicians.
I know thats how it works in some countries but apparently not in the UK.

Shoot me down if I'm wrong

[Brian_UK]

I go with the 'technician' name myself Frank, I think it is more honest.

I also think that with the "global" moving of personnel, especially within the EU, the true engineers will start to protect their status.

[welsh__boy]

Of course, these days the term 'engineer' does seem to be added to a lot of positions to romantasize (maybe not a real word, but sounds good) the job, for example, sales engineer- surely just a salesperson (or cashier). I think we have to accept that with many other words (gay for example) that the true definition has shifted somewhat and we just have to accept that these days it is easier to call yourself an engineer, not just a technician. Some people may argue that you should be a member of an engineering association, personally, I believe that if you are skilled enough to find faults in a machine without simply swapping parts until it works, these days you could call yourself an engineer. Sad, but that's the way it's gone.

[abdulazman]

Hi Boutrous,

Definition of an Engineer is....one who is near to an engine

Definition of a Refrigeration Engineer is....one who is frozen and near to an engine

Don;t worry Be happy

[joe19582001]

engineer could be the one who designs the equipment or who operates it

[leftjobrunning]

I'm a technician and not embarrassed to say it.

In fact when people ask me what I do I tell them I "fix fridges", so as not to get into arguments with University educated people. This may explain why I'm single.

In my humble opinion you should need a degree in engineering to call yourself an engineer.

[SteveDixey]

In my humble opinion you should need a degree in engineering to call yourself an engineer.

I'm in agreement with that.

I cringe when someone calls themself a "thermal insulation engineer" They used to be known as "laggers"

Like "sales people" are now called "sales executives"

I've always worked on this basis, although the boundaries do get blurred at times:
Engineers: design systems from first principles from the ground up. Will have a Higher National Diploma with plenty of experience, or a degree. Can do the maths and science to design a major part of, or a whole, system

Technicians: modify existing systems, fault find and make a pretty good stab at modifications to fix or improve the system, or can go back to the engineer and and suggest things that the engineer might want to look at in the design. Do a bit of maths and science to work out what might be going wrong

Mechanics: take out faulty bits, fix them and put them back but if it blows up again he call the techie. Can identify most major faults with plant operation and take steps to prevent them causing serious damage.

I've always been considered as an engineering technician in the UK.

I think in Germany, engineering is considered a profession on a par with Doctors, and as such were called "Herr Engineer" in times past.

Steve

[abdulazman]

Some of you guys are unpredictable. Making comparison and kind of segregation from what I see. Suppose a guy from an engineering company comes up to you and say I am an engineer, produces his name card. Maybe the call will be, ''can you produce and show me your degree, from which well established university do you come from''. Maybe he'll reply, '' sorry sir, I reckon I did not obtained any degree.''
This guy could be 50 to 60 years old of age with very vast knowledge in his engineering field. Sometimes you know this kind of person can be better than those holding engineering degrees. Funny eh, why don't you guys tell Einstein or Alexandra Graham Bell about this or even the greek scientist in those olden days.
I ask you this, a guy just finishes his degree without any practical knowledge and no proper training was called upon to inspect a centrifugal chiller which was surging and failed to start. I doubt whether he can be better than the hvac masters.

[frank]

As the old saying goes - you can't buy experience.

[abdulazman]

Amen to that frank.

[SteveDixey]

I ask you this, a guy just finishes his degree without any practical knowledge and no proper training was called upon to inspect a centrifugal chiller which was surging and failed to start. I doubt whether he can be better than the hvac masters.

He wouldn't start up the chiller, he would have designed it and then sent the Techie to find out what the issues were

The Managing Director of a fish finger factory would know more about the fish finger market, not how the product is actually made, yet he runs the show, not the engineers or the fish finger makers.

I'm not saying a hands-on guy with years of experience would not be able to do the job, but increasingly that is what is happening, paper qualified "young guns" are coming in to run the show. A good degree owner will hit the ground running so to speak and his knowledge uptake will be quicker.

A good one will rely on his Techies to help him with the operational issues while he designs stuff, as part of a team.

A bad one will design a crap system, go on holiday when it is time to hit the "go" button, and expect his Techies to pull him out the poo.

Steve

[Andy]

He wouldn't start up the chiller, he would have designed it and then sent the Techie to find out what the issues were

The Managing Director of a fish finger factory would know more about the fish finger market, not how the product is actually made, yet he runs the show, not the engineers or the fish finger makers.

I'm not saying a hands-on guy with years of experience would not be able to do the job, but increasingly that is what is happening, paper qualified "young guns" are coming in to run the show. A good degree owner will hit the ground running so to speak and his knowledge uptake will be quicker.

A good one will rely on his Techies to help him with the operational issues while he designs stuff, as part of a team.

A bad one will design a crap system, go on holiday when it is time to hit the "go" button, and expect his Techies to pull him out the poo.

Steve

Hi

I'm a technician, but I design systems and check others designs day and daily (even others with degrees).

Yet I am still a technician. If a system is not working out I go to site, measure everything, either fix it there and then or go back and change the design and have the system re-adjusted to suit the new design.

I fix other peoples design problems by the practical approach, thats what customers want

I work on (and design) the largest and most complex equipment out there, yet I have no degree.

Consultants take advise from me but yet I am a technician.

Hope this clears things up a bit

Kind Regards Andy

[leftjobrunning]

Amen to that frank.

Abdul don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that an engineer is any better than a technician, just that there should be a distinction between the two.

I hate speaking to engineers when I have a problem with any system, obviously I'd much rather speak to an experienced technician...

[US Iceman]

Not too many years ago, the degreed engineers would have had several years worth of field experience. Some of the best ones were the factory guys.

Now we have a different story completely. The young guns come in and design the systems, hopefully with some oversite by an experienced, older hand.

The person who designed the system is not normally the one who starts it up. The designer is busy doing the next job. By the time he hears about all of the problems, he has already designed several other systems the same way.

A good one will rely on his Techies to help him with the operational issues while he designs stuff, as part of a team.

This is when really good things start to happen. All of the feedback is immediate and the problems can be fixed while it is on paper only. Not after the system is trying to be started.

People should be talking during the design stage, not after installation or during start-up.

[quote=SteveDixey]
A bad one will design a crap system, go on holiday when it is time to hit the "go" button, and expect his Techies to pull him out the poo.
[quote]

I have seen this happen all too often, and it seems to indicate a certain arrogance, which does not serve the customer well at all.

Anyone who designs a bad system should have to be on the job correcting all of the problems and also for the complete commissioning process.

After 2 or 3 weeks of this, I bet he does not make the same mistake again on the next project.

[abdulazman]

Hi Everyone,

Engineers or technicians we need one another, we don't make comparison. We compliment when one gets things done right and helps when the other fails.

Distinction there's no distinction between the two. Take Andy for an example. Given a project, lets say 450 ton cold room project

I'm sure he will be able to undertake the project from the design stage, construction, start up and commissioning until the whole project completed. Yet without a degree, would you agree he should be called an engineer.

Or would you rather if Andy was in a corporate position or a king. Maybe he be bestowed with scholarship or doctorship even if he didn't went thru the whole process.

Yep, the world had since change quite a lot. Nowadays its really a big help if you obtained a degree.
But during the good old days, its the interest with knowledge, understanding, hard work and perseverance that counts.

[Andy]

Hi Everyone,

Engineers or technicians we need one another, we don't make comparison. We compliment when one gets things done right and helps when the other fails.

Distinction there's no distinction between the two. Take Andy for an example. Given a project, lets say 450 ton cold room project

I'm sure he will be able to undertake the project from the design stage, construction, start up and commissioning until the whole project completed. Yet without a degree, would you agree he should be called an engineer.

Or would you rather if Andy was in a corporate position or a king. Maybe he be bestowed with scholarship or doctorship even if he didn't went thru the whole process.

Yep, the world had since change quite a lot. Nowadays its really a big help if you obtained a degree.
But during the good old days, its the interest with knowledge, understanding, hard work and perseverance that counts.

Both the company I work for now and my last company have people with Degrees.
In both cases without exception these well educated people worked mainly for managers that came up from the tools.
My last company had some exceptions, the directors mostly had degrees, but the managers that managed the company usually had none.

Ability is what counts and experience

The school of life offers the best Degrees

Kind Regards Andy

[leftjobrunning]

Both the company I work for now and my last company have people with Degrees.
In both cases without exception these well educated people worked mainly for managers that came up from the tools.
My last company had some exceptions, the directors mostly had degrees, but the managers that managed the company usually had none.

Ability is what counts and experience

The school of life offers the best Degrees

Kind Regards Andy

Andy, having worked for crossref myself, I think you should call yourself a Saint, rather than a tecnician lol

[Aussie_Guy00000]

I'm not sure what the deal is in other countries, but in Australia, engineers that design refrigeration systems are Mechanical engineers. Now a mechanical engineer is someone who has attended university/college for 4 years full time and studied the theory behind Static, dynamics, fatigue, vibration, acoustics, heat transfer, mass transfer and energy conversion. I myself am a Mechanical engineer, and during my degree I spent a grand total of 1/2 a subject on refrigeration systems. That doesn't sound like a lot especially when we did 8 subjects a year, but I also did 4 subjects relating to heat transfer, so they are extremely relevent to refrigeration systems as well. Now a refrigeration mechanic, attends TAFE or a technical college part time and does an apprenticeship for 3-4yrs, all of which is dedicated to refrigeration and is hands on. Now the engineers initial knowledge of refrigeration systems is from a heat transfer point of view, whilst he was at university he more then likely learnt little to nothing about the practical side of building a refrigeration system, I never even entered a workshop during my degree, although it is a personal hobby of mine.
So to recap, a Mechanical Engineer isn't a dedicated refrigeration designer (at least not in Australia), he's capable of designing pretty much anything that moves (machinery, heat transfer systems, acoustic systems, etc), he view everything from a design stand point, and is only present at the time of manufacture as a supervisor, he doesn't actually build anything.
A refrigeration Mechanic (or technician), solely deals with refrigeration and heating systems, he was trained on the job in all the practical aspects of the systems and knows how to design, build and repair them.
Could a technician do the engineer's job, more then likely. But in most cases, the designs need to be inspected and verifed by a certified engineer, and then he takes the responsibility for the design being correct, It's his job.
In saying all that, if an engineer hasn't designed refrigeration system before, he should certainly consult with the technicians, because it's their sole job to know the ins and outs of the systems.

[jamcool]

Here in the Tropics,also Engineers are those with degrees that do the design and do not think that they should consult with no one .
For me I am a Technician and will always be a Technician i try to have practical solutions to complex questions Engineers might think they have the book smarts but thats where it ends.
On the totem pole Technicians are at the bottom of the rung but i think we can all learn a thing or two from each other but its sad to say that at times the guys futher up have an attitude that says they could never and would never learn anything from a tech.
Thats life in the tropics As to money!(salary) dont get me started

[winfred.dela]

Hi Botrous, Nice thread. . . Congratulations

In general term:
Engineer - one that have diploma of science in engineering and passed the country's Engineering Licensure exam.
Refrigeration Engineer - any engineer that have experience in Refrigeration (here in our country no college/university is offering Bachelor of Science in Refrigeration Engineering)

My feeling/experience: i Have been an Engineer before becoming a Technician.

I minimize using Labels on people. So, i always find any work easy to accomplished by requesting help from all around.

I hope in this forum there would be no engineer and technician labeling.
Maybe, its the reason I have been enjoying my few weeks stay.
The enviroment here in RE forum just accept everybody from east to west, north to south, technician, engineer and those that are not.

Hope to have shared something. . . .

More power to RE forum!!!!

[Aussie_Guy00000]

I see no problem with a person being refered to as an engineer or technician, because that is their career choice. It's only when someone forms an opinion that engineers think their better then technicians or visa versa that it becomes labelling. Someone shouldn't be judged for their career choice, but how they perform that career. Most of the engineers I know (mainly on mine sites), work side by side with technicians and are very good friends. But I have come across several engineers that don't set foot out of their air conditioned office, and wouldn't know the first thing about trouble shooting a system, it's these engineers that get technicians noses out of joint, and I don't blame the technicians for feeling that way. At the end of the day they are 2 different careers and should be treated as such.

[botrous]

Hi Botrous, Nice thread. . . Congratulations

In general term:
Engineer - one that have diploma of science in engineering and passed the country's Engineering Licensure exam.
Refrigeration Engineer - any engineer that have experience in Refrigeration (here in our country no college/university is offering Bachelor of Science in Refrigeration Engineering)

My feeling/experience: i Have been an Engineer before becoming a Technician.

I minimize using Labels on people. So, i always find any work easy to accomplished by requesting help from all around.

I hope in this forum there would be no engineer and technician labeling.
Maybe, its the reason I have been enjoying my few weeks stay.
The enviroment here in RE forum just accept everybody from east to west, north to south, technician, engineer and those that are not.

Hope to have shared something. . . .

More power to RE forum!!!!

Thanks.

Let me say that the case in Lebanon is a little bit different , here engineers are divided to 2 sections , engineers and technical engineers , engineers studies 5 years at an accredited university without passing an official (governomental) final exam , technical engineers starts a 3 years study at an industrial technical institute and then become High Level Accredited Technicians (HLAT) after passing an official exam that tests their skills and their theory after that they study 2 more years to get the degree in technical engineering (again official exam) " technical engineers have the priority in all official positions" .
Upon the lebanese level scaling system a technician is who have fulfilled 3 years of technical high school studies and passed the official exams , a technical worker is the one who passed at least 9 ,months of speciality training.
So I think the definition is relative to each country laws.

For me a good engineer is a technician with developped experience , title should be given to who do the job best.

Respects and regrads

[wambat]

I found these definations:

An engineer is a person who uses science and math to design, build or operate equipment, structures and systems (A person who receives a college degree in engineering might be an electrical, mechanical, industrial, chemical, environmental, biochemical or aeronautical engineer.)

A technician is an expert in troubleshooting circuit and system malfunctions. Along with a thorough knowledge of test equipment and how to use it to diagnose problems, the technician is also familiar with how to repair or replace faulty components. Technicians basically translate
theory into action

A mechanic is a person who uses tools to repair things (generally machinery) or works to keep things operating properly

I would say we fit in the technicion category

[nike123]

I found these definations:

An engineer is a person who uses science and math to design, build or operate equipment, structures and systems (A person who receives a college degree in engineering might be an electrical, mechanical, industrial, chemical, environmental, biochemical or aeronautical engineer.)

A technician is an expert in troubleshooting circuit and system malfunctions. Along with a thorough knowledge of test equipment and how to use it to diagnose problems, the technician is also familiar with how to repair or replace faulty components. Technicians basically translate
theory into action

A mechanic is a person who uses tools to repair things (generally machinery) or works to keep things operating properly

I would say we fit in the technicion category

I totaly agree with these definitions!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technician

But, I must admit that some of us are both engineers and technicians!