kWh versus GWP - R134a

[Peter_1]

CO2 has a GWP =1
R134a a GWP of 1300

Making 1kWh produces 0.7 kg CO2

How to make the comparison: how much R134a do we have to release in the atmosphere to create 0.7 kg C02 or the equivalent of it?

Why I'm asking this? We may not longer vent our lines with refrigerant but we have to vacuum all our hoses. I wonder if we don't produce more CO2 with running the vacuumpump then purging very short our 3 lines on our manifold.

[desA]

A very interesting point.

[Quality]

Make everything with ammonia then everyone will learn

[B G Scott]

Make everything with ammonia then everyone will learn

Great idea, but I don't see your averages domestic fridge/freezer, ice maker etc. with all the cast iron/steel kit that goes into a Nh3 system, I know you were not necessarily serious but the original post does have a valid point with the regard to the environment.

[Peter_1]

Well, that's why we evacuate now, protecting the environment, but it's possible we harm more with this method.
I just don't know the answer.
And because I'm also a member of the Belgium committee who prepares the laws, it's good to question sometimes yourself and the laws and question what others are spreading as a truth.

[r.bartlett]

CO2 has a GWP =1
R134a a GWP of 1300

Making 1kWh produces 0.7 kg CO2

How to make the comparison: how much R134a do we have to release in the atmosphere to create 0.7 kg C02 or the equivalent of it?

Why I'm asking this? We may not longer vent our lines with refrigerant but we have to vacuum all our hoses. I wonder if we don't produce more CO2 with running the vacuumpump then purging very short our 3 lines on our manifold.

Is this a local law and do you have a link?

[Peter_1]

Richard, I'm almost sure it has become also a British law/standard.
You may not deliberate release any refrigerant to the atmosphere. You even may not use refrigerant any longer as a tracer gas to find a leak.

It can be find 'somewhere' in EN378-2008. I have to search for it but Belgium translated this to a law.

Argus and Abe perhaps can help because they know the British law very well.

All these 'items' are important for the moment because Europe asked all the EU-members to analyze what has to be changed in the present EN842/2006 regulations so that they can prepare revisions. (Oko Recherche Germany is busy with this http://www.oekorecherche.de/english.html)

Your country proposed for example to lower the limit to 0 gr and deliver only gases to certified persons (companies?)

[Quality]

Great idea, but I don't see your averages domestic fridge/freezer, ice maker etc. with all the cast iron/steel kit that goes into a Nh3 system, I know you were not necessarily serious but the original post does have a valid point with the regard to the environment.

Got to agree with you there

[monkey spanners]

You would need to add the need for extra oil changes in the vac pump and the disposal of the extra oil.

It could get very silly adding all the extra things up for this and that, i think people need to realise that what ever we do has an effect on the environment, and either accept it or live in a cave somewhere

[r.bartlett]

Richard, I'm almost sure it has become also a British law/standard.
You may not deliberate release any refrigerant to the atmosphere. You even may not use refrigerant any longer as a tracer gas to find a leak.

It can be find 'somewhere' in EN378-2008. I have to search for it but Belgium translated this to a law.

Argus and Abe perhaps can help because they know the British law very well.

All these 'items' are important for the moment because Europe asked all the EU-members to analyze what has to be changed in the present EN842/2006 regulations so that they can prepare revisions. (Oko Recherche Germany is busy with this http://www.oekorecherche.de/english.html)

Your country proposed for example to lower the limit to 0 gr and deliver only gases to certified persons (companies?)

Every time a hose is removed by it's design and application it ALWAYS releases a small amount of refrigerant. Thus we would not be able to remove the hose after fitting for fear of prosecution . This is not practical nor enforceable.

I don't believe the practicable working of the law is that strict.Within that 'no release', I believe there is an acceptable loss and removing gauges is deemed one of them..

However: It could be deemed unacceptable to remove the liq line hose without isolating the hose liq via a ball valve then purging into the suction first but not unacceptable to remove both it and the suction hose after If for example a system cannot be pumped down (a large VRV)

To state zero loss = gauges to be vac'ed out is a misinterpretation of the spirit of the law and I don't believe a successful prosecution would result in someone removing their suction gauge hose with the system at 3 bar.




The 0 is for the weight which is 3kg at present which is deemed too high as R410a has reduced amounts systems use plus it's an attempt to stop the self installers.

[Peter_1]

Richard, I think you could guess that I also doubt a little bit the practical working of this law.
But, besides a VRV, all the systems we're working on, the hoses can be removed without gas loss.

I have to follow the exams for the Certification...if a candidate can't remove his manifold on a small refrigeration unit (with service valves) without any hissing/sissing noise, then he can com back. This is how it is prescribed in our law.

For me, it's more a way to judge if someone understands the working principle of a refrigeration system and more specific, the way a service valve works. Many AC-techs see a service valve the first time in their life when they come for their exams. I then have to explain with drawings how they must turn to shut-off the service port and what happens when they turn the valve to a fully closed position.

Still wonders what 'pollutes' more now: purging short my 3 hoses or vacuuming my manifold?

BTW, in Belgium, it is already 0 gr from the beginning. Even someone working only on small domestic units must be certified.

[monkey spanners]

BTW, in Belgium, it is already 0 gr from the beginning. Even someone working only on small domestic units must be certified.

I think this is the case here too, the 3kg limit is for the need for inspections and log books but i may have missunderstood.

There are some schreader depressors made by robinair that work like a tap, you just wind out the stem like the old watsco line tap valves so you could still bleed high side pressure across in air con systems, i have bought one to try as they are quit expensive but have not had the chance yet. If it works out i will get a set.

Jon

[mikeref]

Peter1, try this site, ( greenhouse gasses- department of energy and climate change). They state R134a as a gwp 1,000?

[Peter_1]

I know, you find all different numbers for the GWP of R134a.
I thought the EU has taken 1300.

Peter

PS: nobody does to seem the answer on my question, me neither.

[r.bartlett]

Richard, I think you could guess that I also doubt a little bit the practical working of this law.
But, besides a VRV, all the systems we're working on, the hoses can be removed without gas loss.

I have to follow the exams for the Certification...if a candidate can't remove his manifold on a small refrigeration unit (with service valves) without any hissing/sissing noise, then he can com back. This is how it is prescribed in our law.

Is that prescribed in law or just your interpretation of the law? I have not seen any specific mention of the removal of gauge lines within the latest regulations.

For me, it's more a way to judge if someone understands the working principle of a refrigeration system and more specific, the way a service valve works. Many AC-techs see a service valve the first time in their life when they come for their exams. I then have to explain with drawings how they must turn to shut-off the service port and what happens when they turn the valve to a fully closed position.

Old school fridges V new blood. I suspect it's more to do with the training. Most wouldn't know there is such a thing as a liquid line either..

Still wonders what 'pollutes' more now: purging short my 3 hoses or vacuuming my manifold?

All I can find which specifically mentions hoses is as below. There is no specific proscribed method as laid out by law how to remove hoses.AFAIK

Under the Environmental Protection Act the deliberate venting of
refrigerant is an offence.
Specific to the activities undertaken during the service and maintenance of
refrigeration systems the following actions could be construed as
deliberate venting.
1 The venting of “surplus” refrigerant from a system to atmosphere, if it is
considered that the system may be overcharged.
2 The venting of the refrigerant charge to atmosphere instead of
recovery when decommissioning a refrigeration system.
3 The use of refrigerant as a tracer for leak detection.
4 The process of “breaking a vacuum” with refrigerant during the process
of multiple evacuation of a refrigeration system.
5 The use of a refrigeration system or refrigerant container as a source
of pressurised gas for cleaning purposes.
6 The addition of refrigerant to a system thought or known to be leaking
before locating and rectifying the leaks.
The following actions could be construed as inadvertent loss:
1 Loss of refrigerant from leaking joints, seals, gaskets and cracked
pipes etc, before the leak has been detected and eliminated.
2 Loss of refrigerant from safety relief devices during operation to
prevent danger.
3 Loss of residual refrigerant dissolved in oil etc, after normal processes
of refrigerant recovery have been undertaken.
4 Loss of small quantities of refrigerant from “charging lines” such as
occurs during the normal service process of connecting and
disconnection to the system.
5 Loss of small quantities of refrigerant from sections of system pipework
or components, after having taken all practicable steps to recover
refrigerant.
6 Loss of small quantities of refrigerant along with non-condensable gas
only when the system is purged through a properly refrigerated noncondensable
gas purging device

Whilst I agree we need to be vigilant -and trainers more so-I look forward to seeing the specific legal method of removing gauge hoses as laid down by Belgium or EU law before I comment further.

[r.bartlett]

I think this is the case here too, the 3kg limit is for the need for inspections and log books but i may have missunderstood.

There are some schreader depressors made by robinair that work like a tap, you just wind out the stem like the old watsco line tap valves so you could still bleed high side pressure across in air con systems, i have bought one to try as they are quit expensive but have not had the chance yet. If it works out i will get a set.

Jon

Like car access ports. This are still insufficient as the suction gas will still be trapped in the lines. Thats if Peters intrepretation is correct..

However I don't see the point of these fittings if gauge lines with ball valves are used? I use these and they are the best lines I've ever had.

http://www.hawco.co.uk/Manifold-and-Hoses_630_p.aspx

[The Saint75]

Forgive me if I have mis-understood the point....but if you are vaccing your lines, where does the product of the vaccum exit to?

[Peter_1]

Because your lines were empty the moment you disconnected them from the last installation, they are filled with air.
Or, and than you have a point, with refrigerant vapors at atmospheric pressure, enclosed in the hoses which are connected/sealed to the manifold.

Nobody an answer about the relation CO2 between 1 kWh and 1 gr R134a gr. If I can show/prove this with figures, then it's easier to convince some.

[frank]

CO2 has a GWP =1
R134a a GWP of 1300

Making 1kWh produces 0.7 kg CO2

How to make the comparison: how much R134a do we have to release in the atmosphere to create 0.7 kg C02 or the equivalent of it?

Why I'm asking this? We may not longer vent our lines with refrigerant but we have to vacuum all our hoses. I wonder if we don't produce more CO2 with running the vacuumpump then purging very short our 3 lines on our manifold.

Looking on wikipedia the GWP for R134a is given as 1430 in 100 years which superseded the previous level of 1300 in 2001.
To calculate the amount of R134a needed to produce the same as CO2 you would calculate 1/1430*0.7 which equals .489*10^-3 (0.000489kg)

[monkey spanners]

Running vac pump for one minute 0.005Kwh = 3.5g CO2 (plus what ever was sucked out equalivalent in CO2)

10g R134a puffed out in purging lines = 13Kg CO2....

[monkey spanners]

Like car access ports. This are still insufficient as the suction gas will still be trapped in the lines. Thats if Peters intrepretation is correct..

However I don't see the point of these fittings if gauge lines with ball valves are used? I use these and they are the best lines I've ever had.

http://www.hawco.co.uk/Manifold-and-Hoses_630_p.aspx

Thanks for the link, my Refco ball valve hose started leaking today out the tap stem, I will get a set if they do them in 72"
My favourite hoses were the ITE heavy duty ones with the 5/16" hose bore, really speeds up vac time but they were special order and £40 a hose!

The extra tap Robinair thing was for R410A as i have a Testo manifold that has 1/4" fittings so use the Refco hoses which are 1/4" one end and 5/16" the other but sadly don't have taps built in.

Jon

[Peter_1]

Running vac pump for one minute 0.005Kwh = 3.5g CO2 (plus what ever was sucked out equalivalent in CO2)

10g R134a puffed out in purging lines = 13Kg CO2....

Well, thank you MonkeySpanners but that's my point now.

We take gaseous refrigerant r134a to purge our lines. Suppose we purge our 3 lines of our manifold, each 1/4" ( 4 mm ID and 1,000 mm long) then there's at 20°C +/- 0.75 g R134a in my 3 lines.
So I may purge them 4 times to reach the same 'polution' as my vac pump.
And as you said, plus what was sucked out the lines.

[r.bartlett]

Thanks for the link, my Refco ball valve hose started leaking today out the tap stem, I will get a set if they do them in 72"
My favourite hoses were the ITE heavy duty ones with the 5/16" hose bore, really speeds up vac time but they were special order and £40 a hose!

The extra tap Robinair thing was for R410A as i have a Testo manifold that has 1/4" fittings so use the Refco hoses which are 1/4" one end and 5/16" the other but sadly don't have taps built in.

Jon

It was the only pic I could find but yes they do come in 6 foot lengths and Howard up in Theale will probably have them..Or Climate of course