charging R410a with no vacuum !!

[Peter_1]

Two months from now we have minus degree here, as you can read in your paper you need temperature above the boiling point to get vapour to evacuate. Where you think you will find that?

Ever heard of sublimation? You still keeps thinking that you have more moisture in the system when it's cold.
You don't answer my questions.Afraid?

[Peter_1]

I not say Global Warming is a fraud. I said AGW is.. if you read that bad .. what you doing in a parlament?

You have to read clearly what I said
1 I'm not sitting in the Parliament
2 in the Parliament, we don't speak English nor Swedish.

[Peter_1]

Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.

Hopefully not too many times.
Answer my question once.

[Peter_1]

It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it.

I know the Swedish law regarding refrigerants handling pretty well because Sweden is also a member of the EU. So....

And no, not one of my hundreds of colleagues is venting their ac's instead of vacuum. It doesn't take more time to vac then to flush them. You said you will be busy with your 10 th while we are still busy with our 1st one.
Is that the way you teach?
I'm learning that while you're doing the electrical side of the job and put your tools back in the van, you have plenty of time to vac the system properly. And when we have multiple installs on one job, well, we have 5 or 6 vac pumps for this. Doesn't take that much time like you said to vac to the recommended vac pressure which is...yeah,..the same as in Sweden. Even when it's colder than 15°C outside.
Oh, BTW, it's freezing also in my country and we even install in winter.
The colder the better for moisture and you say just the opposite?

How you then vac a freezer store?

I think it's you have to read once again a good book of psychometrics and do some practical tests like I do and show to others, vacuum once on a block of ice and see what's happening. You will be surprised, a whole new world will open for you.

[Peter_1]

Oh I forgot, what about pressurizing the system, I bet you don't do that neither.

[sumsor]

Ok, seems the law is debatable, I truly wasn't aware of this!
What about the environment and some common sense?
I don't think there's any question about some refrigerants beign harmful to the ozon layer and/or the environment(or is there?). Shouldn't we try and avoid releasing any refrigerant into the atmosphere if we can? There's always going to be a leaking flare or pipe joint. And there's always somebody else doing far worse (what about the gas in plasma TVs), but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care. Especially as somebody trained in the handling of refrigerants.
Last week I installed a Panasonic High Wall. In the installation instruction it specifically tells you that purging with refrigerant is not good enough and to use the propper procedure with vac pump and vac gauge. I'm pretty sure that the other makes ask for a propper commissioning as well, do you void your warranty?
I'm with Peter on the time factor, an installation properly planned leaves you heaps of time for your vac pump while finishing other parts of the installation off.

[NoNickName]

This thread has gone berserk. Cancelling subscription.

[lawrence1]

No Nick Name,,,i agree,,,this thread has gone to the dogs.

[Madcap]

get some proper training dude or get the hell out of our trade. cowboys give decent folk bad names. damn idiot

[daviddwilson]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[daviddwilson]

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it. There has been some kind of certificate to work with refrigerants since beginning of the 90´s in Sweden (after Montreal).. i dont know exact year but my first was from 1995. The first certificates were much harder and more restricted then the latest. Since the EU rules came its much more easy and the certificate is now personal. Before we needed both one each person and one ackreditationprocedure for the company that empolys technicians and handle gas containers.

[dorramide7]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

[dorramide7]

You are allowed to use 200 grams for leaktest.. thats enough for flush a small split-AC

Ya it will be great if they both get active on this forum...
and share their exp. with gaming...

[Andy]

Thats the way i do.. and i had no problem

Hello Top Runner,

the problem is you have no warranty on your splits components, the manufacturer will not stand over it

Kind Regards Andy D

[Andy]

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

Hello ktm,

flushing with OFN and a vacumn pump will remove moisture. Please see my proceedure below.

1/Strength test the system.
2/Reduce to leak test pressure and leak test with soapy water (dependant on local legislation you could have added a trace gas and used an electronic detector at this point).
3/Blow off the OFN at a safe point, to flush the system of moisture droplets and debri.
4/fit vacumn pump with screider valve core removed (or on a service port or dedicated service valve). Make sure you have no leaks in the gauge line, vac them on the pump and do a drop test on them before you start.
5/vacumn down to 2500 microns with the gas balast valve open on the pump (slow vacumn).
6/break vacumn with OFN to 0psig
7/repeat 5
8/Carry out a drop test (pump off, watch vacumn level for slow or quick rise).
9/If the rise is quick check for leaks, moderate repeat 6, if slow close balast and vacumn to below 1000 microns.
10/Drop test again, if rise is moderate repeat 6, if slow vacumn to final required micon level 50 to 500 microns dependant on syatem size and refrigerant (500 may even be lower than required for ammonia).

Don't forget the vacumn should have clean oil and be gererally in a good servicible order.

If you want quick vacumn add heat by heating the indoor unit (or running evaporator fans if you can).

There is a right way and a wrong way to do most things and areas in between, but if you want the manufacturer to honour the warranty on their equipment you need to try and keep the pipework clean on instal (purge with OFN and keep the pipe ends sealed when you are not working on it) and pressure test and evacuate your equipment

Kind Regards Andy D

[dorramider7]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[martinw58]

if you do not vacuum how do you no you have removed all the air from the pipes not just the moisture

[martinw58]

if you do not vacuum how do you no you have removed all the air from the system

[JEREMIAH]

Any one on this thread can advice on this. I want to swap the R22 units but i dont want to replace the pipe work. any problems would happen of doing it please advice me.

[old gas bottle]

not been on here for a few weeks ! what the hells hapened !has everyone been on the christmas booze

not read all of it but seems to remind me of what was the way 30 years ago. not now days pleeeeeease.

[Fri3Oil System]

[quote=toprunner;201831]Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.

There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.quote]

Toprunner,

I think Peter has just asked you several times to show where did you read that you are allowed to use 200gr of f-gases to trace a leak. I copied and pasted you words, if you are allowed, ther should be a paper in which that practice is written. The question is quite simple, hence the answer should be as well.

IMHO, more than one guy here is expecting that answer, as it would be against all regulations we do know, and, Sweden, for sure, must not be different from our countries.

Regards,

Nando.

[Carlo Hansen]

It seems to me that many is to lazy concerning propperly use of the vacumpump. I do know it takes time and costs.
Try to use commend sence and use what is recomended by refrigeration info.

Best Regards
Carlo Hansen