charging R410a with no vacuum !!

[kurt s]

i would never do this of course but i have heard stories of flushing the line set on new install with r410a instead of using a vacuum pump to evacuate moister from the lines. than charge the 410a and done.

is this a bad idea? dose it actually get rid of the moister?

[toprunner]

i would never do this of course but i have heard stories of flushing the line set on new install with r410a instead of using a vacuum pump to evacuate moister from the lines. than charge the 410a and done.

is this a bad idea? dose it actually get rid of the moister?

Thats the way i do.. and i had no problem

[Andy]

Thats the way i do.. and i had no problem

Hello Top Runner,

the problem is you have no warranty on your splits components, the manufacturer will not stand over it

Kind Regards Andy D

[NoNickName]

Apart from being a felony in environmentally concerned countries (other than US), it is useless (R410A doesn't have any appreciable hygroscopic capacity) and expensive (R410A is more much more costly than OFN).
toprunner: you can't do that in Sweden.

[toprunner]

Apart from being a felony in environmentally concerned countries (other than US), it is useless (R410A doesn't have any appreciable hygroscopic capacity) and expensive (R410A is more much more costly than OFN).
toprunner: you can't do that in Sweden.

Why not? We have precharged air to air heatpumps/ AC-units and flush the pipes after install. You think is better to put service valves just to mount a vacuumpump? I think service valves are one of the main reasons for leakage

[NoNickName]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

[toprunner]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

Oh,, really? So CO2 and NH3, R600a and Propane cannot be realeased into atmosphere

[dorramide7]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

[NoNickName]

I meant fluorinated refrigerants, of course.

[toprunner]

I meant fluorinated refrigerants, of course.

You are allowed to use 200 grams for leaktest.. thats enough for flush a small split-AC

[dorramide7]

You are allowed to use 200 grams for leaktest.. thats enough for flush a small split-AC

Ya it will be great if they both get active on this forum...
and share their exp. with gaming...

[sedgy]

well doperunner < sorry top< how glad I am to be out of the trade , < with idiot ideas like you have, what was the saying? I am all right jack

[toprunner]

well doperunner < sorry top< how glad I am to be out of the trade , < with idiot ideas like you have, what was the saying? I am all right jack

Sorry.. i dont get your post.. try use sunglasses and hat when you stay out long time in the sun

[nike123]

@ toprunner

With what magical membrane in front of flushing agent (whatever it is) you think you are pushing moisture and air from system by flushing it?
Do you think that you discovered America with your "advanced cheap method" and all other "stupid engineers who vacuuming properly their systems" are some idiots who follow some new religion?
Or you just another hack around corner who think that whole RAC industry are just morons.

[toprunner]

@ toprunner

With what magical membrane in front of flushing agent (whatever it is) you think you are pushing moisture and air from system by flushing it?
Do you think that you discovered America with your "advanced cheap method" and all other "stupid engineers who vacuuming properly their systems" are some idiots who follow some new religion?
Or you just another hack around corner who think that whole RAC industry are just morons.

Just talking from experience. I use vacuum when its necessary and i dont see a reason when mounting a pre-charged R410a unit. Many do same as me and at least i never had a problem. I see more problem from the schraeder you need to put to be able to evacuate with vacuumpump.

I never say you can remove moisture .. just that if you make a clever installation procedure its not necessary and you can flush instead. I think thats what the original post was about.

Try to clean your language.. your arguments falls.

[nike123]

Try to clean your language.. your arguments falls.

My language is clean, I don't see any dirty word.
My arguments are good. Try this way:

Acceptable moisture level is 10 ppm. That is achieved when end vacuum is below 1000 microns.

What is your moisture level after flushing? You don't know, don't you? I know by monitoring my vacuum level.
Do you need more arguments?

[sumsor]

This is an awesome thread!
Toprunner, how can you break the law and go against every inch of good practice and still fight your point?
Amazing!

[NoNickName]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

[daviddwilson]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[dorramider7]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[ktm]

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[Andy]

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

Hello ktm,

flushing with OFN and a vacumn pump will remove moisture. Please see my proceedure below.

1/Strength test the system.
2/Reduce to leak test pressure and leak test with soapy water (dependant on local legislation you could have added a trace gas and used an electronic detector at this point).
3/Blow off the OFN at a safe point, to flush the system of moisture droplets and debri.
4/fit vacumn pump with screider valve core removed (or on a service port or dedicated service valve). Make sure you have no leaks in the gauge line, vac them on the pump and do a drop test on them before you start.
5/vacumn down to 2500 microns with the gas balast valve open on the pump (slow vacumn).
6/break vacumn with OFN to 0psig
7/repeat 5
8/Carry out a drop test (pump off, watch vacumn level for slow or quick rise).
9/If the rise is quick check for leaks, moderate repeat 6, if slow close balast and vacumn to below 1000 microns.
10/Drop test again, if rise is moderate repeat 6, if slow vacumn to final required micon level 50 to 500 microns dependant on syatem size and refrigerant (500 may even be lower than required for ammonia).

Don't forget the vacumn should have clean oil and be gererally in a good servicible order.

If you want quick vacumn add heat by heating the indoor unit (or running evaporator fans if you can).

There is a right way and a wrong way to do most things and areas in between, but if you want the manufacturer to honour the warranty on their equipment you need to try and keep the pipework clean on instal (purge with OFN and keep the pipe ends sealed when you are not working on it) and pressure test and evacuate your equipment

Kind Regards Andy D

[NoNickName]

Ok, guys, you are really pissing me off. You must think that here we are all stupid or something. At first, the genius that fills 200g of F-gas and then pulls the vacuum, then here it comes the irish that thinks doing a blowjob of nitrogen to remove the moisture is not right.

Do you f---ing read what I wrote? Fill it up with nitrogen, warm it up and then pull the vacuum.

And if I got the call for moisture in the system, NO I DON'T PULL THE VACUUM. I try first to understand where the moisture is coming from, fix the system that some f---ing irish or swedish engineer was not able to, pressurise the system, and if ok only then pull the vacuum.

[toprunner]

Ok, guys, you are really pissing me off. You must think that here we are all stupid or something. At first, the genius that fills 200g of F-gas and then pulls the vacuum, then here it comes the irish that thinks doing a blowjob of nitrogen to remove the moisture is not right.

Do you f---ing read what I wrote? Fill it up with nitrogen, warm it up and then pull the vacuum.

And if I got the call for moisture in the system, NO I DON'T PULL THE VACUUM. I try first to understand where the moisture is coming from, fix the system that some f---ing irish or swedish engineer was not able to, pressurise the system, and if ok only then pull the vacuum.

Have you read the original post ? Its about flushing lines in a new installallation.

Anyone can buy and install a split unit here in Sweden. If you think they buy a vacuumpump at the same time you are either naive... or **** . What laws are they breaking if they have no certificate ?

[Brian_UK]

Don't take it personally NNN, there seem to be a lot of Trolls around at the moment.

[ktm]

Sorry for my comment NNN it obviously hit a nerve. Of course I wouldn't expect someone to evacuate a system with moisture in it without finding out how it got in the system. My point was that alot of peole don't work to the same standards as perhaps you or I. Even when it is against the law as you well point out. Once again sorry I pissed u off so much but I never taught my post would upset u so much.

[lawrence1]

I think toprunner and reptile make a good pair,maybe they should open a business together.oh,,,,at least reptile has a vac pump and uses it.

[toprunner]

I think toprunner and reptile make a good pair,maybe they should open a business together.oh,,,,at least reptile has a vac pump and uses it.

What makes you think i dont have a vacuumpump? I use it for most cases but find it not necessary for this particular case.

[Fri3Oil System]

Hey guys, can you hold it for 10mins? that's the time it takes me to go out and buy more popcorns... I ate them all already!!

[Yuri B.]

The whole idea with vacuum procedure is to make water boil at lower temperature and suck out the vapour......

Sublimation and evaporation is not caused by vacuum..its from diffusion and sunradiation.

I am speechless.

[chemi-cool]

Why not read the Kyoto Protocol on the weekend and learn more?

NNN is absolutely right!

And one little thigy, any moisture remain in the system will shorten the life expectancy of the compressor as the POE oil is very hygroscopic.

[toprunner]

Why not read the Kyoto Protocol on the weekend and learn more?

NNN is absolutely right!

And one little thigy, any moisture remain in the system will shorten the life expectancy of the compressor as the POE oil is very hygroscopic.

The Koyoto protocol expires 2012.. who knows what will happen after that?

The threat of AGW is prooved to be a fraud so maybe we can come back to a better, more energy efficient conclusion than this

[Peter_1]

The Koyoto protocol expires 2012.. who knows what will happen after that?

The threat of AGW is prooved to be a fraud so maybe we can come back to a better, more energy efficient conclusion than this

Have you forgotten Copenhagen perhaps.
Some says Global Warming is a fraud and apparently, you're one of these believers.
Who says you're right?

[toprunner]

Have you forgotten Copenhagen perhaps.
Some says Global Warming is a fraud and apparently, you're one of these believers.
Who says you're right?

I will never forget Copenhagen. It was one of the biggest jokes i ever seen.

I not say Global Warming is a fraud. I said AGW is.. if you read that bad .. what you doing in a parlament?

The hypothese that man can change global temperature is proven wrong. The temperatur change as it always does. We still see a continous warming since last ice-age.

[toprunner]

I am speechless.

Yes.. lack of arguments usually do that to people. Dont fear ,, its normal

[paul_h]

People were evacuating lines with a vac pump before any enviromental policy was made law, because it's needed to remove moisture to prevent damage to the system.
Also unfortunately pre charged splits don't even have driers, so more important to vac them out than any other type of a/c

Over 10 years ago when splits were only installed by proper refrig tradespeople, they seem to last 12 years or more.
These days where almost anyone installs splits, lucky if they last 5 yrs, coincedence?

[toprunner]

People were evacuating lines with a vac pump before any enviromental policy was made law, because it's needed to remove moisture to prevent damage to the system.
Also unfortunately pre charged splits don't even have driers, so more important to vac them out than any other type of a/c

Over 10 years ago when splits were only installed by proper refrig tradespeople, they seem to last 12 years or more.
These days where almost anyone installs splits, lucky if they last 5 yrs, coincedence?

Of course you put a filter in if you choose to flush it. Its a safer procedure than evacuate in cold weather.

I can add that we teach all technicians here in sweden how to remove moisture below 15 degree in reasonable time, its a part of education. Your procedure is not sufficient.

[Peter_1]

Of course you put a filter in if you choose to flush it. Its a safer procedure than evacuate in cold weather.

I can add that we teach all technicians here in sweden how to remove moisture below 15 degree in reasonable time, its a part of education. Your procedure is not sufficient.

Outside temperature in the range of 10 to 30°C like you has nothing to do with removing moisture inside a system.
Am I reading correct: do you (we) teach technicians?

[toprunner]

Outside temperature in the range of 10 to 30°C like you has nothing to do with removing moisture inside a system.
Am I reading correct: do you (we) teach technicians?

I told problem start at 15 degree and get worse with lower temperature. Where did you get 30 degree from?

Check a diagram for boilingpoint of water and a IX-diagram for condensation if you dont understand what i talk about. (you obviously dont)

Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.

[Peter_1]

Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.

Hopefully not too many times.
Answer my question once.

[NoNickName]

Let's remain to what it is. Evacuating refrigerant F-gas is forbidden. Full stop. Please comply.

[toprunner]

Let's remain to what it is. Evacuating refrigerant F-gas is forbidden. Full stop. Please comply.

It has been allowed to use 200 grams of gas for leaktest since i took my first certificate 15 years ago and it still is.

[Yuri B.]

Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.

It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.

[toprunner]

Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.

It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.

What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.

Who said its to put 200 grams out for every installation? Your extrapolation is very very wrong.

[Peter_1]

What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

[toprunner]

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.

There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.

You have a funny way of putting words in my mouth that i never said... is that your way of moderate this forum? Its very rude.

[Fri3Oil System]

[quote=toprunner;201831]Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.

There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.quote]

Toprunner,

I think Peter has just asked you several times to show where did you read that you are allowed to use 200gr of f-gases to trace a leak. I copied and pasted you words, if you are allowed, ther should be a paper in which that practice is written. The question is quite simple, hence the answer should be as well.

IMHO, more than one guy here is expecting that answer, as it would be against all regulations we do know, and, Sweden, for sure, must not be different from our countries.

Regards,

Nando.

[daviddwilson]

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it. There has been some kind of certificate to work with refrigerants since beginning of the 90´s in Sweden (after Montreal).. i dont know exact year but my first was from 1995. The first certificates were much harder and more restricted then the latest. Since the EU rules came its much more easy and the certificate is now personal. Before we needed both one each person and one ackreditationprocedure for the company that empolys technicians and handle gas containers.

[Magoo]

I fully support NNN.
Add to that a good purge is not good enough.

[NoNickName]

This thread has gone berserk. Cancelling subscription.