charging R410a with no vacuum !!

[kurt s]

i would never do this of course but i have heard stories of flushing the line set on new install with r410a instead of using a vacuum pump to evacuate moister from the lines. than charge the 410a and done.

is this a bad idea? dose it actually get rid of the moister?

[toprunner]

i would never do this of course but i have heard stories of flushing the line set on new install with r410a instead of using a vacuum pump to evacuate moister from the lines. than charge the 410a and done.

is this a bad idea? dose it actually get rid of the moister?

Thats the way i do.. and i had no problem

[NoNickName]

Apart from being a felony in environmentally concerned countries (other than US), it is useless (R410A doesn't have any appreciable hygroscopic capacity) and expensive (R410A is more much more costly than OFN).
toprunner: you can't do that in Sweden.

[toprunner]

Apart from being a felony in environmentally concerned countries (other than US), it is useless (R410A doesn't have any appreciable hygroscopic capacity) and expensive (R410A is more much more costly than OFN).
toprunner: you can't do that in Sweden.

Why not? We have precharged air to air heatpumps/ AC-units and flush the pipes after install. You think is better to put service valves just to mount a vacuumpump? I think service valves are one of the main reasons for leakage

[NoNickName]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

[toprunner]

Under EU regulations, you can't use refrigerant to flush pipes and to deliberately release it into the atmosphere. Full stop.
Your opinion is pure and unlawful speculation.

Oh,, really? So CO2 and NH3, R600a and Propane cannot be realeased into atmosphere

[NoNickName]

I meant fluorinated refrigerants, of course.

[toprunner]

I meant fluorinated refrigerants, of course.

You are allowed to use 200 grams for leaktest.. thats enough for flush a small split-AC

[sedgy]

well doperunner < sorry top< how glad I am to be out of the trade , < with idiot ideas like you have, what was the saying? I am all right jack

[NoNickName]

I'm not a mod, but let's try to keep this a civil exchange of opinions.

EDIT: unable to keep it civil

[ktm]

Flushing with ofn or any other gas can't get rid of moisture. You pull a deep vacuum so that the moisture boils off in the system and the pump can pull it out. If u got a call for a system that u knew had moisture in it would u just dump bottle after bottle into the sytem trying to flush it or would u pull a vacuum???

[NoNickName]

Ok, guys, you are really pissing me off. You must think that here we are all stupid or something. At first, the genius that fills 200g of F-gas and then pulls the vacuum, then here it comes the irish that thinks doing a blowjob of nitrogen to remove the moisture is not right.

Do you f---ing read what I wrote? Fill it up with nitrogen, warm it up and then pull the vacuum.

And if I got the call for moisture in the system, NO I DON'T PULL THE VACUUM. I try first to understand where the moisture is coming from, fix the system that some f---ing irish or swedish engineer was not able to, pressurise the system, and if ok only then pull the vacuum.

[Brian_UK]

Don't take it personally NNN, there seem to be a lot of Trolls around at the moment.

[toprunner]

Ok, guys, you are really pissing me off. You must think that here we are all stupid or something. At first, the genius that fills 200g of F-gas and then pulls the vacuum, then here it comes the irish that thinks doing a blowjob of nitrogen to remove the moisture is not right.

Do you f---ing read what I wrote? Fill it up with nitrogen, warm it up and then pull the vacuum.

And if I got the call for moisture in the system, NO I DON'T PULL THE VACUUM. I try first to understand where the moisture is coming from, fix the system that some f---ing irish or swedish engineer was not able to, pressurise the system, and if ok only then pull the vacuum.

Have you read the original post ? Its about flushing lines in a new installallation.

Anyone can buy and install a split unit here in Sweden. If you think they buy a vacuumpump at the same time you are either naive... or **** . What laws are they breaking if they have no certificate ?

[toprunner]

well doperunner < sorry top< how glad I am to be out of the trade , < with idiot ideas like you have, what was the saying? I am all right jack

Sorry.. i dont get your post.. try use sunglasses and hat when you stay out long time in the sun

[ktm]

Sorry for my comment NNN it obviously hit a nerve. Of course I wouldn't expect someone to evacuate a system with moisture in it without finding out how it got in the system. My point was that alot of peole don't work to the same standards as perhaps you or I. Even when it is against the law as you well point out. Once again sorry I pissed u off so much but I never taught my post would upset u so much.

[nike123]

@ toprunner

With what magical membrane in front of flushing agent (whatever it is) you think you are pushing moisture and air from system by flushing it?
Do you think that you discovered America with your "advanced cheap method" and all other "stupid engineers who vacuuming properly their systems" are some idiots who follow some new religion?
Or you just another hack around corner who think that whole RAC industry are just morons.

[toprunner]

@ toprunner

With what magical membrane in front of flushing agent (whatever it is) you think you are pushing moisture and air from system by flushing it?
Do you think that you discovered America with your "advanced cheap method" and all other "stupid engineers who vacuuming properly their systems" are some idiots who follow some new religion?
Or you just another hack around corner who think that whole RAC industry are just morons.

Just talking from experience. I use vacuum when its necessary and i dont see a reason when mounting a pre-charged R410a unit. Many do same as me and at least i never had a problem. I see more problem from the schraeder you need to put to be able to evacuate with vacuumpump.

I never say you can remove moisture .. just that if you make a clever installation procedure its not necessary and you can flush instead. I think thats what the original post was about.

Try to clean your language.. your arguments falls.

[lawrence1]

I think toprunner and reptile make a good pair,maybe they should open a business together.oh,,,,at least reptile has a vac pump and uses it.

[nike123]

Try to clean your language.. your arguments falls.

My language is clean, I don't see any dirty word.
My arguments are good. Try this way:

Acceptable moisture level is 10 ppm. That is achieved when end vacuum is below 1000 microns.

What is your moisture level after flushing? You don't know, don't you? I know by monitoring my vacuum level.
Do you need more arguments?

[toprunner]

I think toprunner and reptile make a good pair,maybe they should open a business together.oh,,,,at least reptile has a vac pump and uses it.

What makes you think i dont have a vacuumpump? I use it for most cases but find it not necessary for this particular case.

[toprunner]

My language is clean, I don't see any dirty word.
My arguments are good. Try this way:

Acceptable moisture level is 10 ppm. That is achieved when vacuum is below 500 microns.
What is your moisture level after flushing? You don't know, don't you? I know by monitoring my vacuum level.
Do you need more arguments?

And what happens when its 5 degree C outside when you mount your unit?

It has to be at least 15 degree C for your procedure

[sumsor]

This is an awesome thread!
Toprunner, how can you break the law and go against every inch of good practice and still fight your point?
Amazing!

[nike123]

And what happens when its 5 degree C outside when you mount your unit?

You evacuate longer until you achieve 500 microns.

It has to be at least 15 degree C for your procedure

Why should be at least 15 C for my procedure?
Water evaporate and ice sublime at lover temperatures at lower pressures. At 500 microns ice sublime at -24,43°C. We only need time.
Is this your argument?

How do you plan to compensate damage to your customer made by allowing high moisture content in your new instalation, and by doing that, shortening life span of compressor motor insulation and accelerating decomposition of oil in to acids. Or you don't care about your customers and environment. You only care about your profit, you even don't care for your childrens future by unnecessary releasing greenhouse gases in to atmosphere. That is other peoples problem?

[toprunner]

This is an awesome thread!
Toprunner, how can you break the law and go against every inch of good practice and still fight your point?
Amazing!

What law did i break? Be more specific please so i can answer

I already told anyone here can buy a unit like that legally and mount it by themself. That means people that have no idea whatever vacuum is

[toprunner]

You evacuate longer until you achieve 500 microns.

Why should be at least 15 C for my procedure?
Water evaporate and ice sublime at lover temperatures at lower pressures. At 500 microns ice sublime at -24,43°C. We only need time.
Is this your argument?

How do you plan to compensate damage to your customer made by allowing high moisture content in your new instalation, and by doing that, shortening life span of compressor motor insulation and accelerating decomposition of oil in to acids. Or you don't care about your customers and environment. You only care about your profit, you even don't care for your childrens future by unnecessary releasing greenhouse gases in to atmosphere. That is other peoples problem?

The whole idea with vacuum procedure is to make water boil at lower temperature and suck out the vapour.

Can you give me the boiling point of water at your given pressure.

Sublimation and evaporation is not caused by vacuum..its from diffusion and sunradiation. You need study physics.

If you use the vacuumprocedure at lower temperatures and think you get the water out,.. you fool only yourself.

[Fri3Oil System]

Hey guys, can you hold it for 10mins? that's the time it takes me to go out and buy more popcorns... I ate them all already!!

[nike123]

The whole idea with vacuum procedure is to make water boil at lower temperature and suck out the vapour.

Can you give me the boiling point of water at your given pressure.

Sublimation and evaporation is not caused by vacuum..its from diffusion and sunradiation. You need study physics.

If you use the vacuumprocedure at lower temperatures and think you get the water out,.. you fool only yourself.

Try this reading, could be educational to you:
http://www.mediafire.com/?zmyztx5gnzm

[Yuri B.]

The whole idea with vacuum procedure is to make water boil at lower temperature and suck out the vapour......

Sublimation and evaporation is not caused by vacuum..its from diffusion and sunradiation.

I am speechless.

[chemi-cool]

Why not read the Kyoto Protocol on the weekend and learn more?

NNN is absolutely right!

And one little thigy, any moisture remain in the system will shorten the life expectancy of the compressor as the POE oil is very hygroscopic.

[toprunner]

Try this reading, could be educational to you:
http://www.mediafire.com/?zmyztx5gnzm

Yes.. it points out exactly what i try to tell you.

You welcome anytime to sweden and offer an installation this month. We have about 5 degree outside so use your sheet and calculate the time you need to vacuum your system until you feel happy.

My estimation is that i mount my tenth unit when you still in progress with your procedure on your first.

Two months from now we have minus degree here, as you can read in your paper you need temperature above the boiling point to get vapour to evacuate. Where you think you will find that?

Most air to air R410a heatpump units will be sold in october/november here (there are plenty), they are installed as i describe. Hope you can sleep without nightmares !! Goodnight !

[toprunner]

I am speechless.

Yes.. lack of arguments usually do that to people. Dont fear ,, its normal

[toprunner]

Why not read the Kyoto Protocol on the weekend and learn more?

NNN is absolutely right!

And one little thigy, any moisture remain in the system will shorten the life expectancy of the compressor as the POE oil is very hygroscopic.

The Koyoto protocol expires 2012.. who knows what will happen after that?

The threat of AGW is prooved to be a fraud so maybe we can come back to a better, more energy efficient conclusion than this

[paul_h]

People were evacuating lines with a vac pump before any enviromental policy was made law, because it's needed to remove moisture to prevent damage to the system.
Also unfortunately pre charged splits don't even have driers, so more important to vac them out than any other type of a/c

Over 10 years ago when splits were only installed by proper refrig tradespeople, they seem to last 12 years or more.
These days where almost anyone installs splits, lucky if they last 5 yrs, coincedence?

[NoNickName]

Let's remain to what it is. Evacuating refrigerant F-gas is forbidden. Full stop. Please comply.

[toprunner]

People were evacuating lines with a vac pump before any enviromental policy was made law, because it's needed to remove moisture to prevent damage to the system.
Also unfortunately pre charged splits don't even have driers, so more important to vac them out than any other type of a/c

Over 10 years ago when splits were only installed by proper refrig tradespeople, they seem to last 12 years or more.
These days where almost anyone installs splits, lucky if they last 5 yrs, coincedence?

Of course you put a filter in if you choose to flush it. Its a safer procedure than evacuate in cold weather.

I can add that we teach all technicians here in sweden how to remove moisture below 15 degree in reasonable time, its a part of education. Your procedure is not sufficient.

[toprunner]

Let's remain to what it is. Evacuating refrigerant F-gas is forbidden. Full stop. Please comply.

It has been allowed to use 200 grams of gas for leaktest since i took my first certificate 15 years ago and it still is.

[Peter_1]

What law did i break? Be more specific please so i can answer

I already told anyone here can buy a unit like that legally and mount it by themself. That means people that have no idea whatever vacuum is

Toprunner, everyone can buy it and install this - that's correct - but as soon you're making handlings to the gas system - opening the valve of the unit is more than enough - then you need to be certified ....even in Sweden, no...especially in Sweden.

You're breaking the Swedish law which you as a technician should be aware of this. It's not my job nor another poster to explain you the Swedish law.

I'm a member in Belgium of the committee who translate the EU recommendations to a national law. I have copied this thread and have send it to the responsible in the Belgium Government. It's an idiotic way of thinking you have, that's for sure.

Apparently, you don't know the Swedish law and you're surely not certified the right way. Your certificate of 15 years old says enough. The law has changed enormous very recently and you're not aware of this (your post says enough for me to determine this, even without knowing you more then these few posts I've read)

BTW, what certificate did you got 15 years ago? Anyhow, if you got the right (!) certificate 15 years ago, it's no longer valid these days.
In most countries, even the new certificates are only valid for 5 years.

This way of thinking makes it even more sure for me that we have to go- like the British and French proposal for the moment - for a certain control not selling refrigerants any longer to non certified peoples.

Can you show me where the Swedish allow 200 gr to add gas with the purpose finding a leak? Because I don't believe you. I can show you EU regulations where there's stated you can't use any refrigerant to trace a leak. (= 0 gr!!)

[Peter_1]

Of course you put a filter in if you choose to flush it. Its a safer procedure than evacuate in cold weather.

I can add that we teach all technicians here in sweden how to remove moisture below 15 degree in reasonable time, its a part of education. Your procedure is not sufficient.

Outside temperature in the range of 10 to 30°C like you has nothing to do with removing moisture inside a system.
Am I reading correct: do you (we) teach technicians?

[Peter_1]

The Koyoto protocol expires 2012.. who knows what will happen after that?

The threat of AGW is prooved to be a fraud so maybe we can come back to a better, more energy efficient conclusion than this

Have you forgotten Copenhagen perhaps.
Some says Global Warming is a fraud and apparently, you're one of these believers.
Who says you're right?

[Yuri B.]

Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.

It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.

[toprunner]

Toprunner, everyone can buy it and install this - that's correct - but as soon you're making handlings to the gas system - opening the valve of the unit is more than enough - then you need to be certified ....even in Sweden, no...especially in Sweden.

You're breaking the Swedish law which you as a technician should be aware of this. It's not my job nor another poster to explain you the Swedish law.

I'm a member in Belgium of the committee who translate the EU recommendations to a national law. I have copied this thread and have send it to the responsible in the Belgium Government. It's an idiotic way of thinking you have, that's for sure.

Apparently, you don't know the Swedish law and you're surely not certified the right way. Your certificate of 15 years old says enough. The law has changed enormous very recently and you're not aware of this (your post says enough for me to determine this, even without knowing you more then these few posts I've read)

BTW, what certificate did you got 15 years ago? Anyhow, if you got the right (!) certificate 15 years ago, it's no longer valid these days.
In most countries, even the new certificates are only valid for 5 years.

This way of thinking makes it even more sure for me that we have to go- like the British and French proposal for the moment - for a certain control not selling refrigerants any longer to non certified peoples.

Can you show me where the Swedish allow 200 gr to add gas with the purpose finding a leak? Because I don't believe you. I can show you EU regulations where there's stated you can't use any refrigerant to trace a leak. (= 0 gr!!)

The year on my first certificate is 1995 since we were first country to use this method for people working in refrigeration.

My newest certificate i made 2008 and is valid until 2013 according to latest regulation.

There are plenty of cans with gas to cool electronics to buy all over europe for example. These cans contain R-134a and many people use this to top-up their car-AC. Other people use it for its original purpose... to spray on electronics. If your a member in a parlement... start your work where its needed.

I answer the original post and describe a method that is very common.

I am very familiar with regulation here and we allow 200 grams for leaktest because the main task is to run a tight machine.

If you think there is a law against relase F-gas... why dont you call the police first thing you do when you arrive to a leaking machine? Its obviously releasing gas

[toprunner]

Outside temperature in the range of 10 to 30°C like you has nothing to do with removing moisture inside a system.
Am I reading correct: do you (we) teach technicians?

I told problem start at 15 degree and get worse with lower temperature. Where did you get 30 degree from?

Check a diagram for boilingpoint of water and a IX-diagram for condensation if you dont understand what i talk about. (you obviously dont)

Yes.. i teach technicians sometimes.

[toprunner]

Have you forgotten Copenhagen perhaps.
Some says Global Warming is a fraud and apparently, you're one of these believers.
Who says you're right?

I will never forget Copenhagen. It was one of the biggest jokes i ever seen.

I not say Global Warming is a fraud. I said AGW is.. if you read that bad .. what you doing in a parlament?

The hypothese that man can change global temperature is proven wrong. The temperatur change as it always does. We still see a continous warming since last ice-age.

[toprunner]

Leakages, losses of ***** have been happening and will be, unfortunately, but, one who deliberately is letting himself let into the air up to 200 gr of it by every A/C he installs (and in a year he may install tens of A/C's or worse, if he leads a business, by the hands of his people - hundreds of A/C's) and by that remain happy and proud of himself with such doings, is utterly wrong.

It seems Toprunner confuses moisture in a system (grams in a big, usually less of a gr) with the water comets consist of. The latter, indeed, travel the space for thousands of years seemingly untouched by
cosmic vacuum, but the scale is different - the comets' masses are millions of tons - compared to our gram in the system which are subjected to the very comparable degree of the "artificial" vacuum.

What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.

Who said its to put 200 grams out for every installation? Your extrapolation is very very wrong.

[Magoo]

I fully support NNN.
Add to that a good purge is not good enough.

[Peter_1]

The year on my first certificate is 1995 since we were first country to use this method for people working in refrigeration.
...

Strange, ...first EN regulations came in 2000, more specific EN378/2000.
I don't think Swedish were the first, The Netherlands were the first and they called it STEK. STEK was founded in 1991. But even STEK is no longer valid these days.
What you eventually did in 1998 is something completely different from what is now demanded.
If you renewed this in 2008 - it' was not a renewal but a new exam - then they should have say you that you can't use gas to trace a leak . Show it to me, I can show you the EN regulations. I doubt your country made a national law against EN regulations. And 200 gr... for a domestic or for a supermarket?? Come on....

Your remark about calling the police...if you're familiar with the law like yous said, then you should now that
1. this is not releasing gas but there's gas escaping, something completely different
2. that an installation can leak
3. that an installation may leak (!!)
4. that you should know what actions you should take if it leaks
5. that you should know what action you have to take if you repaired the leak
6. that you should know what you have to do if you can't reduce the leakage rate
7..
100. that the police has nothing to do with this

I'm not a sitting in a Parliament - happily - in the Parliament, they're only signing laws and regulations which were prepared before by working groups.

[Peter_1]

What happens to moisture in air at lower temperatures? Try a IX-diagram instead of poetry... its much more solid science.

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

[toprunner]

Strange, ...first EN regulations came in 2000, more specific EN378/2000.
I don't think Swedish were the first, The Netherlands were the first and they called it STEK. STEK was founded in 1991. But even STEK is no longer valid these days.
What you eventually did in 1998 is something completely different from what is now demanded.
If you renewed this in 2008 - it' was not a renewal but a new exam - then they should have say you that you can't use gas to trace a leak . Show it to me, I can show you the EN regulations. I doubt your country made a national law against EN regulations. And 200 gr... for a domestic or for a supermarket?? Come on....

Your remark about calling the police...if you're familiar with the law like yous said, then you should now that
1. this is not releasing gas but there's gas escaping, something completely different
2. that an installation can leak
3. that an installation may leak (!!)
4. that you should know what actions you should take if it leaks
5. that you should know what action you have to take if you repaired the leak
6. that you should know what you have to do if you can't reduce the leakage rate
7..
100. that the police has nothing to do with this

I'm not a sitting in a Parliament - happily - in the Parliament, they're only signing laws and regulations which were prepared before by working groups.

It is not possible to discuss Swedish regulation with you since you have no idea about it. There has been some kind of certificate to work with refrigerants since beginning of the 90´s in Sweden (after Montreal).. i dont know exact year but my first was from 1995. The first certificates were much harder and more restricted then the latest. Since the EU rules came its much more easy and the certificate is now personal. Before we needed both one each person and one ackreditationprocedure for the company that empolys technicians and handle gas containers.

Its also not a topic in this thread where i simply answer the question and reason why a precharged r410a unit is installed withouth vacuuming... legally or not.

If you not understand this happens very often.. just keep your head in the sand and pretend i never answered , that seems to work for you before.

[toprunner]

Answer once your own question above...what happens to moisture when it's cold? I bet you will give the wrong answer, seeing the reply you have to Yuri B.

In one of your post, you said you have to evacuate below 15°C and you teach that to technicians, again, this is against EN regulations.
You can't evacuate to a temperature and if you meant the vapor pressure of water at 15°C, even then this is completely fault. What says Swedish and EN regulations about this? You know the law so good you said

Prove me also once the 200 gr rule of Sweden.

I seriously doubt your certificate, I think you bought it somewhere.

Sorry,,, i dont understand what you write here but i dont recognice my words.. please cut and paste instead of try to phrase me.

There is no rule... we have recommendations and intstructions. We dont leaktest with F-gas by a rule... its one of many options and allowed.

You have a funny way of putting words in my mouth that i never said... is that your way of moderate this forum? Its very rude.