What should engineer be checking?

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Hi everyone

Got an engineer coming to look at my multisplit tmrw.

One of the coils is staying cold when it is turned off so some refrigerant must be getting through to the coil that is off.

If I turn one of the other units off and leave the faulty one on the problem does not follow the unit so it must be something to do with the EEV on my bedroom unit.

The coil gets to the same temperature as the units that are calling for cooling.

I feel in winter this is going to cause heating problems as refrigerant will go to a coil that doesnt is turned off thus affecting other units that do require heating.

What should the engineer be checking tmrw and how long can I expect him to take to diagnose the problem, as I say its only one of the units doing this.

He has suggested that the valve motor may be shot or something blocking the valve from shutting.

Any help greatfully received.

Thanks.

[Brian_UK]

I would have thought by now that you had a fully detailed check list for any visitors to your plant.

Yes it could be the valve motor, to check it and how long, well it depends how easy it is to get to.

[back2space]

I would have thought by now that you had a fully detailed check list for any visitors to your plant.

haha I agree Brian but I have had that many con artists and engineers who didnt have a clue what they were doing and thus made things worse it has varied wildley!

The guy whos coming tmrw is local and is old school so knows what he is doing!

[Grizzly]

I have had that many con artists and engineers who didn't have a clue what they were doing and thus made things worse it has varied wildley!

Your occupation is listed as IT ( with 685 posts)and yet this is a Refrigeration Forum.
Harsh words for one with such tenuous links, is it not?
Or am I missing something?
Grizzly

[back2space]

Your occupation is listed as IT ( with 685 posts)and yet this is a Refrigeration Forum.
Harsh words for one with such tenuous links, is it not?
Or am I missing something?
Grizzly

I am not in IT dont know why it says that, will update that now.

I work for a very large facilities management company.

If you read back at some of my other posts you will see the problems I have had with this unit, I have had engineers who have lost gas, not fitted pipework properly. Not done the maths to calculate additional refrigerant engineers who have worked in the dark (not even a torch) whilst drinking.

I have had engineers also let the gas go rather than recovering it as it "costs too much to dispose of"

So I feel my words are justified. However I do appreciate that any line of business has its cowboys however I have had more than my fair share of them. I seem to attract them or it could be just my area!

[monkey spanners]

Hi everyone

Got an engineer coming to look at my multisplit tmrw.

One of the coils is staying cold when it is turned off so some refrigerant must be getting through to the coil that is off.

If I turn one of the other units off and leave the faulty one on the problem does not follow the unit so it must be something to do with the EEV on my bedroom unit.

The coil gets to the same temperature as the units that are calling for cooling.

I feel in winter this is going to cause heating problems as refrigerant will go to a coil that doesnt is turned off thus affecting other units that do require heating.

What should the engineer be checking tmrw and how long can I expect him to take to diagnose the problem, as I say its only one of the units doing this.

He has suggested that the valve motor may be shot or something blocking the valve from shutting.

Any help greatfully received.

Thanks.

This isn't a problem i've seen in the past so once i had confirmed that the system is actually doing what you think it is, i would phone LG tech to see if this is normal for the system in it present operating condition (may be dependant on wht the other units are doing or how many are running), and if not what and how to check the part they think may be the cause.

Jon

[back2space]

This isn't a problem i've seen in the past so once i had confirmed that the system is actually doing what you think it is, i would phone LG tech to see if this is normal for the system in it present operating condition (may be dependant on wht the other units are doing or how many are running), and if not what and how to check the part they think may be the cause.

Jon

Thanks Jon

It is only doing it on one of the units. Have tried alternating different units to see if they all do it and they dont. In heating the EEVS are supposed to remain open 10% to allow for oil return but I feel this one is sticking open further than that which explains poor heating on the unit furthest away if too much gas is going to a unit that is supposed to be switched off.

The coil only seems to feel cold if I turn the unit off, if the unit is in cooling and the fan is operating the air off is at the ambient temperature and only the last 2/3 inches of coil are staying cold.

Have felt the external pipework outside and it is cold and there is condensate on it even thoguh it is switched off whereas the other units that are off dont have cold pipework.

I will never touch LG ever again after my experience!

LG technical dont hold out much either engneers in the past have never gotten anywhere with them.

They have always said thats how the units supposed to perform however several engineers have said other manufacturers dont behave like that.

[Quality]

Old school multi split engineer , do they exist?

[back2space]

Old school multi split engineer , do they exist?

I did say hes old school meaning he is in his 50s and doesnt come across as though hes gonna cut corners cos he wants to get off home early etc.

This is the impression that the engineers who have attended recently have given me... they were younger and dont think they were that bothered abuot quality of their work.

Not saying that all younger engineers are like that but its certainly harder to find someone through yellow pages that wants to work without cutting corners.

[Quality]

The man probably knows his job inside out but does he know a multi split inside out ,I Know I don`t, the mechanical process is the same but the control is far from it.
that's probably why you have had to suffer load of so called engineers
Monkey has it LG will hopefully sort it

We recently installed a vrv with 19 units (indoor) all mitsi electric and a nice job too.

But then had but problems with two rooms.

To cut a long story short 2 days it took two of their technical fellas to diagnose a faulty BC box

[monkey spanners]

I will never touch LG ever again after my experience!

LG technical dont hold out much either engneers in the past have never gotten anywhere with them.

They have always said thats how the units supposed to perform however several engineers have said other manufacturers dont behave like that.

On the few occasions i've had to call LG tech support i've found them to be very competant, certainly as good as other manufacturers and better than a few well regarded makes. This was LG direct and not a wholesalers tech department.

One thing i have learnt is air con units from all the different manufacturers basically do the same thing BUT they may go about it in different ways, expecting units from one manufacturer to behave the same as ones from another will have people finding faults were possibly none exist.

I hope you find the solution to your problem.

Jon

[back2space]

The man probably knows his job inside out but does he know a multi split inside out ,I Know I don`t, the mechanical process is the same but the control is far from it.
that's probably why you have had to suffer load of so called engineers
Monkey has it LG will hopefully sort it

We recently installed a vrv with 19 units (indoor) all mitsi electric and a nice job too.

But then had but problems with two rooms.

To cut a long story short 2 days it took two of their technical fellas to diagnose a faulty BC box

Yeh but when engineers weighed in the wrong ammount of refrigerant etc the surely something is up?

Letting gas into the atmosphere is cutting corners etc to save time.

[Quality]

Yeh I see your Point

[mad fridgie]

I am no specialist on LG (well wound not go near one) nor on VRVs, but one thing you could check is that the EEV head is actually hard down on the valve. (they tend for some reason to ride up slightly, which meaans the valve does not act as it should nor does it give the correct reading to the electronics of the valve position. To fix lift the head slightly up the valve then push down firmly, then add a tie to hold in place. Just something you should look at

[frederik79]

Old school multi split engineer , do they exist?

hehehehehe spot on

[still learning]

before you let some one loose on your kit ask for a gas handling card. yes there are good guys out there with no card.
mind you i did hear that the could be got for a fee in a pub near heathrow.

[spimps]

Letting gas off (now illegal) and incorrect charging wouldn't be the fault of LG unless they are LG employees of course.
Get recommendations before contacting engineers,word of mouth is the best way.
Fitted countless LG's and had very few problems that have required their technical input but when it has they have been first class.
Best of luck,you hopefully have the right man at last .

[Andy_WSM]

How did it go Richard?

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How did it go Richard?

Afternoon Andy

The engineer was here 2 hours investigating took covers off etc and thinks that there is something stopping the valve closing down fully. As the eev is operated by solenoid there is no easy access to the pin inside the valve.

TO resolve he turned all indoors onto full heating then shut the liquid line off on the faulty one to build pressure and then he released it in hope that it would blast through whatever is making it stick. No such look and problem is still there.

Visit cost £60 for 2 hours work, no materials used. Is this reasonable?

Engineer said other option instead of replacing the valve which is a fiddly job is to change the indoor unit over onto one of the unused ports on the outdoor unit. As the outdoor unit can take 4 indoor units only 3 are in use so this is another option which is less work than replacing the EEV itself.

[Andy_WSM]

Visit cost £60 for 2 hours work, no materials used. Is this reasonable?

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Cost of getting to site, charge per hour etc etc.

Engineer said other option instead of replacing the valve which is a fiddly job is to change the indoor unit over onto one of the unused ports on the outdoor unit. As the outdoor unit can take 4 indoor units only 3 are in use so this is another option which is less work than replacing the EEV itself.

Good suggestion I'd have thought - unless someone here knows why this shouldn't work?

I guess that means collecting up the gas and remaking the pipework, vacuuming & re-gassing? Another couple of hours work?

[back2space]

[quote=Andy_WSM;199138]Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Cost of getting to site, charge per hour etc etc.

quote]

He lives one street away!

[Andy_WSM]

He lives one street away!

Yeah, but presume he still has a van full of equipment? Neither of which are free. I wouldn't have thought £60 is too much.

[monkey spanners]

Visit cost £60 for 2 hours work, no materials used. Is this reasonable?

I'm just curious from your perspective as a customer, one who has more understanding of air con systems and what is necessary to service them, than the average customer, what you think is a fair price to pay per hour, as a call out charge, or mileage if no call out charge for an engineer?


Cheers Jon

[back2space]

I'm just curious from your perspective as a customer, one who has more understanding of air con systems and what is necessary to service them, than the average customer, what you think is a fair price to pay per hour, as a call out charge, or mileage if no call out charge for an engineer?


Cheers Jon

He initially told me he charges £23 per hour, so I was expecting to pay £46 obviously if materials were required that would be extra.

bearing in mind he only took the covers off, didnt have to use gauges or anything else other than a screwdriver, allen key.

[monkey spanners]

This is interesting! I'm considering sending out a customer satisfaction survey with invoices in future to see where they think we have got things right and where there is room for improvement.

Did you feel the £60 was value for money?

If he had to travel for half an hour and say 15 miles to get to you what would you be happy paying for this also?

Cheers Jon

[back2space]

This is interesting! I'm considering sending out a customer satisfaction survey with invoices in future to see where they think we have got things right and where there is room for improvement.

Did you feel the £60 was value for money?

If he had to travel for half an hour and say 15 miles to get to you what would you be happy paying for this also?

Cheers Jon

To be honest no, because the £60 was just fault finding and taking the covers off. He seemed to drag it out really when we knew from the start that the valve wasnt closing properly. I told him this before he even arrived.

The fault is still there because nothing has actually been done to the unit to rectify it, something was tried to see if he could clear whatevers making the EEV stick but it didnt work so I feel I am £60 out of pocket and if I want him to take the next approach then he says its going to be more than £60.

The fact he lives in the next street he could have walked here its only 6 houses away across the road, so there was no travel involved he could have brought the screwdriver in his hand!

Nice bloke and knows what hes doing but im in the wrong business if I can take a few covers off and play about for a bit then charge someone £60 for 2 hours work.

If he had to travel to me for 1.5hrs then I would say wear and tear on the vehicle and fuel etc that its a fair price but if hes local then no still expensive.

£30 an hour!!!! Madness!

[Andy_WSM]

To be honest no, because the £60 was just fault finding and taking the covers off. He seemed to drag it out really when we knew from the start that the valve wasnt closing properly. I told him this before he even arrived.

The fault is still there because nothing has actually been done to the unit to rectify it, something was tried to see if he could clear whatevers making the EEV stick but it didnt work so I feel I am £60 out of pocket and if I want him to take the next approach then he says its going to be more than £60.

The fact he lives in the next street he could have walked here its only 6 houses away across the road, so there was no travel involved he could have brought the screwdriver in his hand!

Nice bloke and knows what hes doing but im in the wrong business if I can take a few covers off and play about for a bit then charge someone £60 for 2 hours work.

If he had to travel to me for 1.5hrs then I would say wear and tear on the vehicle and fuel etc that its a fair price but if hes local then no still expensive.

£30 an hour!!!! Madness!

If he quoted you £23 an hour and charged you £30 you have every right to feel peeved. But either way £30 an hour is NOT a lot of money nowadays - by the time he's paid his Tax & NI there isn't too much of that left (assuming you didn't pay it in cash and he's slipped it in his pocket).

Whether or not he used his van & tools, he still has them - i.e. ongoing costs. Also, training & certifications don't come cheap nowadays...

I work in Telecomms and am a Manager of a team of engineers. We work out the cost of our engineer resource as £65 per hour. This is the cost to keep the engineers employed, tax, NI, pensions, training, test equipment etc - NOT what they get paid!

[Andy_WSM]

If he had to travel to me for 1.5hrs then I would say wear and tear on the vehicle and fuel etc that its a fair price but if hes local then no still expensive.

My engineers bill the company the HMRC recommended rate of 40 Pence PER MILE if they use their own vehicles. So an hour and a half of traveling could easily cost £30 - £40 in mileage charges alone.

[Brian_UK]

<snip> As the eev is operated by solenoid there is no easy access to the pin inside the valve.<snip>

EEV's are not operated by solenoids but by stepper motors. They normally screw onto the valve themselves.

Easy matter, normally, to unscrew the motor and push the valve pin in. Pin should return under operating pressure.

Unless LG use something special.

[back2space]

EEV's are not operated by solenoids but by stepper motors. They normally screw onto the valve themselves.

Easy matter, normally, to unscrew the motor and push the valve pin in. Pin should return under operating pressure.

Unless LG use something special.

He said it was a solenoid it was like a coil round the top of the head that came off.

[Brian_UK]

Oh, OK, so maybe it isn't an EEV.

[back2space]

Oh, OK, so maybe it isn't an EEV.

God knows knowing LG, they say its an EEV.

[monkey spanners]

To be honest no, because the £60 was just fault finding and taking the covers off. He seemed to drag it out really when we knew from the start that the valve wasnt closing properly. I told him this before he even arrived.

The fault is still there because nothing has actually been done to the unit to rectify it, something was tried to see if he could clear whatevers making the EEV stick but it didnt work so I feel I am £60 out of pocket and if I want him to take the next approach then he says its going to be more than £60.

The fact he lives in the next street he could have walked here its only 6 houses away across the road, so there was no travel involved he could have brought the screwdriver in his hand!

Nice bloke and knows what hes doing but im in the wrong business if I can take a few covers off and play about for a bit then charge someone £60 for 2 hours work.

If he had to travel to me for 1.5hrs then I would say wear and tear on the vehicle and fuel etc that its a fair price but if hes local then no still expensive.

£30 an hour!!!! Madness!

Thanks for the reply,

So if i'm reading this right if he had traveled for 1.5hr (lets say 50 miles) and spent 2 hours on site then £60 would be a fair price?

I think this highlights something our industry gets very wrong, we are percieved as low skilled and deserving of low skilled rates.

I've worked out it costs about £20 to invoice a customer, just to pay for the book keeper and accountants fees, my van costs 50p a mile over my anual mileage to pay for purchacing, servicing, fuel, tyres, insurance, assuming a 40hr week its about £1 an hour for the liability insurance and about 25p an hour for the f gas ticket, etc

So thats £20 invoice + £25 mileage + £4.37 Insurance etc leaving me £10.36 out of which i have to pay my taxes and national insurance, buy and replace my tools etc

If i worked 40 hrs a week at that i'd make £6156.80 a year....

I had to get some new batteries for my drills a couple of months ago, as i was bored i worked out during lunch that the wear and tear on these is 2.8p an hour just for the barreries let alone the drills and chargers! I dread to work it out for all my tools, when i start to do it i just get depressed and wonder why i bother working in this trade.

Makes you think i hope,

Jon

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Cash in hand he was paid, he said it would cost more if he had to add vat on!!!

[spimps]

£30 per hour is very reasonable,he doesn't use any technical stuff but sounds by his actions to know what he is doing.Some companies I know charge £45 per hour including travelling.
Would take too much time to list the equipment and training costs now required to work legally in the refrigeration industry,hourly costs would include all of this even though he might just use a screwdriver on this occasion.
Van equipment required must be approaching £7000,and thats just tools !
Trouble also when end users jump from one service provider to another,all that trust experience site knowledge etc gets lost and each new engineer starts from scratch everytime trying to work out what previous work has beeen done,has it been done correctly etc,not to mention the distrustful owner looking on.Easy money
If he had walked from "the next street" then it would be more than two hours,plus if he wanted extra equipment from his van and had to walk back .... more hourly costs.Silly I know but one silly remark deserves another !
What happened to the origional installers,don't they service what they install,why not try them ?

[back2space]

Origional installers,don't they service what hey install,why not try them ?

HAHA They did but they went bankrupt owing lots of money to people... they were so shoddy!

[lomb]

Or they were too cheap!
In fairness the going engineer rate in industry is around 65 an hour+vat
You'd be surprised how little of that is left when overheads are accounted for and downtime from not working etc
Why not just accept the system for what it is instead of pumping time, money and stress into it, in a few years it will probably need replacing in any case, generally they last for 8-10 years. If one valve is sticking chances are they all will in time if they were from the same batch and experienced the same working conditions.
Was the system properly vacuumed from the start?

[spimps]

HAHA They did but they went bankrupt owing lots of money to people... they were so shoddy!

Like I said recommendations and ask around to establish the quality of the company you are trading with.
Cash for no vat,so now you presumably have no written entry on your plant record or a record/receipt of work carried out !
Is it April 1st ?

[Andy_WSM]

Cash for no vat,so now you presumably have no written entry on your plant record or a record/receipt of work carried out !

Plant record on a Domestic installation?! That's more organised than I'll ever be!

[spimps]

Plant record on a Domestic installation?! That's more organised than I'll ever be!

Forgot it was domestic,ah well.no income tax no vat,no money back no gaurantee.

[Quality]

I thought this guy was supposed to know his stuff i.e. old school.
Prodding a valve or rather he can`t

Ps 30 quid an is extortionate amount for somebody who does not know his arse from his elbow but its peanuts for some that does

[spimps]

Think we need to see this one first hand,any chance of setting up a live web cam feed ready for the next engineers visit,wait,second thoughts it could be one of us.

[back2space]

Was the system properly vacuumed from the start?

Hi Lomb

To be honest cant say for certain I know they vacuumed it but I dont think pipework was flushed with nitrogen which is probably why something is stuck in the valve now.

[back2space]

Think we need to see this one first hand,any chance of setting up a live web cam feed ready for the next engineers visit,wait,second thoughts it could be one of us.

HAHA im sure you will want to stay well clear!

However if someone honest wants to come sort it then more than welcome... however will report back on here!

[back2space]

I thought this guy was supposed to know his stuff i.e. old school.
Prodding a valve or rather he can`t

Ps 30 quid an is extortionate amount for somebody who does not know his arse from his elbow but its peanuts for some that does

Really? Everyone else seems to think that its more than fair?

It took nearlly an hour for him to strip the unit down enough to get to the valves then he was checking temps on all the valves to see what the difference was. (this bit is where I thought he was wasting time as I had done all this with a infra red thermometer, so I dont think he needed to do this to see him for himself but I guess to be fair to the guy he needs to be sure what I am saying is true as most customers wouldnt have a clue or will describe something that means another). He also switched coils around on the PCB to see if bahaviour stayed with the unit or if it was a control issue.

So really solution is as he has given, order new valve or switch over onto one of the unused ports meaning another call out. Hes diagnosed the problem officially whereas I was speculating from behaviour of the system, something I know like the back of my hand.

Other problem is will this cause performance issues if refrigerant is going to a unit that is off? Liquid back to compressor?

[spimps]

Could also be that the return spring in the solenoid has weakened and not closing off fully.
Nitrogen doesn't clear the pipe work,it does if used when brazing as well as pressure testing prevent oxydisation,flakes of which can come loose and could be blocking the valve.
Could also be particles not cleared ie burrs from pipe cutting etc which have started floating around in the system and coming to rest in the valve seat.

[back2space]

Could also be particles not cleared ie burrs from pipe cutting etc which have started floating around in the system and coming to rest in the valve seat.

I agree deffo an option.

[still learning]

just a question, how much per hour in a garage to sevice a car, in jersey its any where between , £35 to £75.
a/c work is cheap, in my eye , we should charge more..
i m h o , if you take the cheapest, you will get monkeys.

[Brian_UK]

This conversation makes me chuckle.

You ask a techie to come around on the cheap and complain because he takes readings using the correct equipment because you have taken readings yourself; sorry but infra red thermometers are no good for what you want.

Then because he doesn't give you the result you wanted or expected you start complaining about the price.

When you get your car serviced do you stand over the mechanic telling him he using the wrong spanner or the oil isn't the one you would use; but you pay the high garage charges without blinking. Or if your clients came and stood over your desk while you allocate staff would you approve. I don't think so.

You have never been happy with this equipment and installation or any of the techies that have been to site yet. The likelihood of your system working as you want seems highly improbable and finding a cheap super engineer is not going to happen either.

[back2space]

This conversation makes me chuckle.

You ask a techie to come around on the cheap and complain because he takes readings using the correct equipment because you have taken readings yourself; sorry but infra red thermometers are no good for what you want.

Then because he doesn't give you the result you wanted or expected you start complaining about the price.

When you get your car serviced do you stand over the mechanic telling him he using the wrong spanner or the oil isn't the one you would use; but you pay the high garage charges without blinking. Or if your clients came and stood over your desk while you allocate staff would you approve. I don't think so.

You have never been happy with this equipment and installation or any of the techies that have been to site yet. The likelihood of your system working as you want seems highly improbable and finding a cheap super engineer is not going to happen either.

He monitored temperatures using a thermometer probe that he pressed onto the liquid and gas lines. I used a infra red thermometer to do the same? WHy would infra red thermometers not do the same, it gave me the same results and conclusion?

He gave me the result I knew and expected so the reason I was enquiring about the price as rather than spending 2 hours to confirm the same problem I dont think he actually did anything to fix the problem and the issue could have been confirmed.

You use the anology of a car in a garage, if you had taken your car to have the brakes fixed on one of your wheels because it wasnt locking on properly yet 2 hours later they had carried out the same investigations as you but no fix was in place how would you feel?