which refrigerant ???????

[bob007]

Hi all,

PLEASE HELP!!!!

I was called to a cellar cooling unit today as it was not getting down to temp. It had 2x evaps in the cellar which where full of dust and dirt it took me an hour to clean them out. Anyway on the condenser i noticed a leak on the tube to the low side p/s which i repaired but due to this leak the sight glass was well under half full when running. It is cooling the cellar but not as good as it should!

The 2x searle evaps are mob/no c6h1ac
one has a danfoss tev with 81 on it the other tev has 159&3004 on it.

The data plate on the evaps have (medium r12,r22,r502 on it)

I feel that in the future i will have to add /replace the charge but i need to know what is in there at the mo, i have checked the web but cant find what refrigerant these tev are for can anyone help!!!!!

[nike123]

-If a technician has an unknown refrigerant in a recovery cylinder, and both liquid and vapor are present in the recovery cylinder, the refrigerant type can be verified by comparing the pressure and temperature with the saturation pressure/temperatures curves for the various refrigerants. For example, suppose the unknown refrigerant has a tank temperature of 80F and a tank pressure of 86 psig; referring to Table 2, the refrigerant in the tank is HFC-134a. Similarly, for the same tank temperature, the pressure would have to be 1.5 psig if the refrigerant was CFC-11, 84 psig if the refrigerant was CFC-12, 144 psig if the refrigerant was HCFC-22, 102 psig if the refrigerant was CFC-500, and 161 psig if the refrigerant was CFC-502. This technique will only work if the unknown refrigerant is pure and not contaminated with other refrigerants or non-condensible gases. If the refrigerant is known, but the measured pressure is above the saturation pressure (and both liquid and vapor are present in the tank), then the refrigerant is contaminated with either non-condensible gases or another refrigerant. If recovery of some vapor from the top of the tank removes or reduces this pressure discrepancy, then the problem was non-condensible gas, which was removed by the recovery operation. Non-condensible gases will add to the refrigerant's partial pressure resulting in an increased total system pressure for the mixture. Similarly, if the refrigerant is known, but the measured pressure is below the saturation pressure (and both liquid and vapor are present in the tank), then the refrigerant is contaminated with another refrigerant. If the pressure and temperature of the unknown refrigerant does not agree with any of the known refrigerants and recovery of vapor from the recovery tank does not improve the problem, then the recovery tank most likely contains two or more refrigerants mixed together, and this mixture cannot be recycled or reclaimed but must be destroyed at considerable expense (it must be incinerated by an EPA-approved waste processing facility).

............................

[goshen]

Hi :
i like that !!!

[multisync]

look on the top of the tev. it will stamp what gas it's on but yellow is 12 and green will be 22. it is very very unlikely to be 502 -or a drop in replacement for it..

[bob007]

Thanks Nike123,
Whats the pressure/temp relationship???
Only joking reread my thread does sound abit daft was hoping for an easy answer, im thinking its R22 but will go back and check( didnt want to mess with the system too much as i didnt have any replacment gas or equipment and as its a bank holiday weekend he could not afford to lose his cooling)
thanks for the advice multisync will go back and check the top of the tev i should have checked this before.

[bob007]

IF it is R22 what the easyest drop in and what will i need o change eg-tev ,orifice ect...

[james10]

R417a, in THEORY you shouldn't need to change anything however a capacity drop between 10-15% would be expected.
i've used this in the past and had no problems however using other R22 drop ins i've had trouble with such as isceon59 and R422d

[bob007]

Thanks mate i will look into and see how much it is,only pro with buying a full bottle is knowing when you will use it again! plus the price!
thanks again

[bob007]

Ive just had a look a some prices for R417 its about 500 quid trade i only need about 2kg has anyone got any ideas?

[coolhibby1875]

will be r22

[sneep]

Ive just had a look a some prices for R417 its about 500 quid trade i only need about 2kg has anyone got any ideas?

Quit dabbling. You don't know enough and won't spend the money to buy what it takes to do the job.
Better stick with your day job before you get the confidence to finger a job that will really bite you.

[monkey spanners]

IF it is R22 what the easyest drop in and what will i need o change eg-tev ,orifice ect...

You can still buy recycled R22, may work out cheaper and will have no problems with any o rings etc that may be in the system, unlike many drop ins.

[bob007]

Quit dabbling. You don't know enough and won't spend the money to buy what it takes to do the job.
Better stick with your day job before you get the confidence to finger a job that will really bite you.

We have all got to start somewhere mate, i didnt realise you were born with the knowlage!!! With time and practice comes experiance.
This site is all about helping other techs and not being stuck up your own ****.
Many thanks to everyone who has give advise even with the 2079 experiance is power.

[sneep]

We have all got to start somewhere mate, i didnt realise you were born with the knowlage!!! With time and practice comes experiance.
This site is all about helping other techs and not being stuck up your own ****.
Many thanks to everyone who has give advise even with the 2079 experiance is power.

If you were fingering your own stuff fine. But you're holding yourself out to be a contractor.
That means you're supposed to be capable of professional work. Based on your posts you have no business doing business.
Please find some other occupation to half-ass and screw people over. We have enough untrained equipment butchers TYVM.

[bob007]

I think youve got the wrong end of the stick mate , im not a contractor, thanks for the advice! their is no harm in learning thanks again for the positive replys.

[nike123]

If you were fingering your own stuff fine. But you're holding yourself out to be a contractor.
That means you're supposed to be capable of professional work. Based on your posts you have no business doing business.
Please find some other occupation to half-ass and screw people over. We have enough untrained equipment butchers TYVM.

You seem like very nice guy!

[sneep]

I think youve got the wrong end of the stick mate , im not a contractor, thanks for the advice! their is no harm in learning thanks again for the positive replys.

If you are working for someone they provide the refrigerant. Your other post has you in ebay looking for refrigerant. There's nothing wrong with learning. I advocate it. Nothing wrong with learning to fix your own stuff either.

Hugely different story when you are hanging out a shingle and going after work as a contractor. There are enough news stories, war stories and walls of shame, about work that is half-assed, untrained, criminal, dangerous, stupid, etc.
You are not entitled to engage in our occupation because you want to. There are laws and regulations everywhere governing HVAC/R.
I’m sick of the damage hacks do to my trade on all kinds of levels.

[Electrocoolman]

Bob,
the first few words of your post read
"I was called to a cellar cooling ....."

This certainly gives one the impression that you are a contractor.....and the rest of your questions do suggest that you don't know a great deal....so please don't get the hump.!

I agree that we all have to start learning somewhere.....Most of us started by learning the trade as apprentices, going to night school or college.....the internet and forums such as this one had not even been thought about!

These days there are rules and regulations that need to be followed especially when dealing with the refrigerant side of things....the electrical side of the work is a slightly easier matter to help with where appropriate.

We all don't mind giving advice and help where we can, so please don't be put off, however please be honest about your abilities.

[bob007]

If you are working for someone they provide the refrigerant. Your other post has you in ebay looking for refrigerant. There's nothing wrong with learning. I advocate it. Nothing wrong with learning to fix your own stuff either.

Hugely different story when you are hanging out a shingle and going after work as a contractor. There are enough news stories, war stories and walls of shame, about work that is half-assed, untrained, criminal, dangerous, stupid, etc.
You are not entitled to engage in our occupation because you want to. There are laws and regulations everywhere governing HVAC/R.
I’m sick of the damage hacks do to my trade on all kinds of levels.

Im not sure about the usa but we have to have qualification over here, ive done my 2079 c&g i know this does not mean much and experiance is key but ive only been doing this for 2 years and have alot to learn and yes i do ask some silly questions now and again but its all part of learning.
I didnt expect to have this c**p from someone havin a bad day, but thanks to everyone else for their imput.
There will be plenty more silly questions from me in the future so sneep you will have to lighten up a bit.

[monkey spanners]

Im not sure about the usa but we have to have qualification over here, ive done my 2079 c&g i know this does not mean much and experiance is key but ive only been doing this for 2 years and have alot to learn and yes i do ask some silly questions now and again but its all part of learning.
I didnt expect to have this c**p from someone havin a bad day, but thanks to everyone else for their imput.
There will be plenty more silly questions from me in the future so sneep you will have to lighten up a bit.

Bob, please do keep asking questions, stupid or otherwise. Everyone has to learn somewhere, infact if you are good at this job, you never stop learning.

I can see Sneeps point too, last week i got called to look at a coldroom i had quoted for three years ago but was beaten on price by another contractor.
Found the condenser too close to the wall, hung on air con brackets that were too short and the difference had been made up with ply wood. The fibre glass housing was too big for the unit and it was recirculating hot air from the condenser. They had fixed the LP/HP switch to the electrics box lid so you couldn't check the capacitors....
The problem was in the evaporator where the liquid line conection on the TXV was leaking refrigerant and oil, which had dripped down onto the non waterproof solenoid which had no right to be under the txv where defrost water would drip, they had bent one of the distributor pipes over so that it didn't flow well and only half the coil was working....

Fixed the leak with a new piece of pipe, nut and flare, drier, straighten pipe, make drip cover from milk bottle for solenoid , leak test, vac and recharge, .
Got moaned at by the customer for the time it took to put this right

I am not implying that this is the standard you work to at all! but you will find if you stay in this industry that you will lose work to chancers like this who will fit stuff for peanuts and the disapear, they either don't know or don't care.
And its frustrating you know? when you end up making less of a living than these people becasue you do things properly, things you end up not charging for or not fully charging for because round the corner there is always someone who will charge less for doing the bare minimum to make something work long enough for the cheque to clear.

[paul thompson]

Ive just had a look a some prices for R417 its about 500 quid trade i only need about 2kg has anyone got any ideas?

get yourself a decent supplier , i dont pay any where near that for r 417.sounds like you are being done

[sneep]

Im not sure about the usa but we have to have qualification over here, ive done my 2079 c&g i know this does not mean much and experiance is key but ive only been doing this for 2 years and have alot to learn and yes i do ask some silly questions now and again but its all part of learning.
I didnt expect to have this c**p from someone havin a bad day, but thanks to everyone else for their imput.

I don't know what a 2079 is but if it's about refrigerants we have a National EPA requirement here. Some here think an EPA card is a license to contract. It's not.
What Monkey said illustrates it well. Not speaking up isn't going to improve the bad that hacks do. I’m all for learning and sharing information. I’m not willing to support the people who give us a black eye. Homeowners and businesses read these forums and we shouldn’t let the impression stand that hiring a hack is the same as hiring a trained professional. Hacks need put on the spot to clean up their act or find something else to do.

There will be plenty more silly questions from me in the future so sneep you will have to lighten up a bit.

Maybe a little.

[bob007]

Thanks monkey spanners, i think regardless of the trades around when you do a job ( of any size ) it needs to be done right not just for the customer but for my own peace of mind. i can see all your point of view just felt i was being tared with the same brush as the cowboys out there who wouldnt even make the effort do do things right and only think of the quick £. Anyway sneep all is forgiven i look forward to getting some good advice from you (i will keep the silly questions to a minimum)haha
Thanks again..

[Shatner]

Bob,
I've been in the electrical trade for 23 years, and have made the switch to the HVACR trades about 3 years ago. I have asked my share of "stupid" questions, and have also gotten my share of "stupid " answers. Keep working hard and do the best you can. I understand the frustation of other tradesmen because of the Hacks, Butchers, Bootleggers or whatever you want to call the mechanics who don't want to take the time and effort to learn to perform their trade properly, but the fact that you are on this site tells me you may be otherwise. One great place to go for tons of educational material is RSES (Refrigeration Service Engineers Society) This was a great help for me. Good Luck in the trade

[Fri3Oil System]

Hi Monkey Spanners,

I think you should read the E.R. 1005/2009 and check that it is forbidden to buy recycled R-22. You can only acquire regenerated one.

The difference is quite big, and people can easily get disoriented.

The European Regulation 1005/2009 forbids strictly the purchase of recycled products from 1st January 2010 until 31st Dec 2014.

Anyway, you can still buy regenerated R-22 or recover and recycle existing R-22 and reuse it in any other installation, that belongs to another user.
That's what the E.R. says. You can check it in these links:
Spanish Ministry of the Environment:
http://www.mma.es/portal/secciones/c...rigeracion.htm
CSF, SA Retrofit procedure:
www.fri3oilsystem.com/june.zip

Cheers

[monkey spanners]

Hi Monkey Spanners,

I think you should read the E.R. 1005/2009 and check that it is forbidden to buy recycled R-22. You can only acquire regenerated one.

The difference is quite big, and people can easily get disoriented.

The European Regulation 1005/2009 forbids strictly the purchase of recycled products from 1st January 2010 until 31st Dec 2014.

Anyway, you can still buy regenerated R-22 or recover and recycle existing R-22 and reuse it in any other installation, that belongs to another user.
That's what the E.R. says. You can check it in these links:
Spanish Ministry of the Environment:
http://www.mma.es/portal/secciones/c...rigeracion.htm
CSF, SA Retrofit procedure:
www.fri3oilsystem.com/june.zip

Cheers

Language is an odd thing, often the same words have different meanings and connotations to different people, especially when we are from different countries etc.
The word i should have used is 'reclaimed', though i think your 'regenerated' and my 'recycled' seem to imply more work has been done to clean up the refrigerant than 'reclaimed'.

The R22 i have bought is from A gas so i am sure it meets all the relavent regulation.

Cheers Jon

[Fri3Oil System]

Hi!

I really wanted to use the same nomenclature of the E.R. It might sound obvious or even stupid, but there is a big difference, and a lot of confussion about this matter. The definitions are:

-Recycling: re-use of recuperated product after a simple cleaning proces
-Regeneration: improvement of the recuperated product in that way that the result of this proces results in a product that has a norm of performance equal to virgin product

In Spain we say: "Everywhere they boil beans"... meaning that everybody's got his own "special things", and therefore, there are many ways to express the same thing... even in the same area.

Didn't mean to correct you, but to clarify the difference, big on from point of view, of the terms used.

Cheers,
Nando.

[Fri3Oil System]

By the way, Monkey Spanners, did you get a "regeneration certificate" of that R-22? You should have gotten it.

[monkey spanners]

By the way, Monkey Spanners, did you get a "regeneration certificate" of that R-22? You should have gotten it.

There was no regeneration certificate with the cylinder, it is labelled as reclaimed and the seals/shrinkwrap on the tap are a different colour also from regular refrigerant.

Jon