Replaced R22 with R404..Needs help troubleshooting

[l3astardd]

Hi, I recently put in R404 into a compressor that's designed for that refrigerant but the thing is, i used pipes that originally ran R22 and now the machine isnt functioning. just wondering if anyone of you would know a solution, the help would be much appreciated!!

[jpsmith1cm]

Well,

"Isn't funtioning" is rather vague.

What type of problem are you having?

[l3astardd]

Thank you for replying! I'm actually translating this for my dad so i'm not sure if the terms that i use are correct, here it goes...the screen on the pipe relating to high pressure doesnt show any signs of refrigerant flowing/circulating (normally he would see some fluid flowing through). he says that when the compressor isn't bathed with refrigerant, it can burn very easily so he's afraid to turn it on. He's thinking that the r22 and r404 are making lumps instead of flowing through the system

[cadwaladr]

what pressures has he got on high and low /suction and delivery,could be drier,tev,did he get the old oil out,is the evaporator the original,how long has the new compressor ran before this problem.

[chemi-cool]

Are you a refrigeration engineer?

It sounds like you dont have too much idea of what you are doing and what to expect.

What else have you done on the system? TXV? Drier? Vacuum?

[lowcool]

sounds to me that your dad is describing the affect of putting 404A in a system that was previously running 22 with mineral oil,mineral oil and 404 are not very good friends.
a system flush and oil change is in order,tx valve change would be a good idea also

cheers stewy

[l3astardd]

I'm sorry for the misinformation, I am not a refrigeration engineer ( i just put that down b/c its what this site was called). Anyways, My dad replaced a freezer that runs on R22, with another freezer that runs on R404. It would have been a huge project to replace all the pipes so he decided to use the old pipes, which definately had R22 residues. Now that he got the new system connected without cleaning the pipes, he put in R404 and tried to run the freezer but he doesn't see the fluid flow on the screen he's talking about. He started the machine today and the freezer can actually achieve up to 0 degrees Farenheit. The electric current is normal, but after the machine ran for about 30 minutes, the electric current suddenly jumped up so he turned off the machine immediately knowing that there's a huge problem. His plan now is to take out all the oils in the pipes (taking out the U-shaped pipes that traps oil and pour out all the refrigerant) and then replace the drier. He can't clean out the oils that are already inside the compressor so cleaning out the pipes is all that he can do. He's wondering if this will work out. He's desperately looking for suggestions on how to fix this whole mess

(please let me know if this is misleading because i have no experience with freezers and i'm just translating, i REALLY appreciate all the help and reply from you guys, thank you!)

what pressures has he got on high and low /suction and delivery,could be drier,tev,did he get the old oil out,is the evaporator the original,how long has the new compressor ran before this problem.

To catwaladr: - suction: 10 PSI delivery: 125 PSI, the drier is new, and he believes the TEV shouldnt have any problems and he believes everything else is fine except for the fact that he put R404 in pipes that had R22


To Iowcool: What exactly do you mean by a system flush and oil change?

[Mark II]

13ee,

Even though your dad hasn't flushed the system. What you have just described sound more like a T/X issue than oil.. In theory your current draw should be highest @ start-up when the system is @ high load.. The pressures are o.k. Sounds like it started to flood back after 1/2 an hour.. Get him to check the supereat/ bulb position & insulation..It pays to fit MOP type T/X's on low temp blended systems..

[l3astardd]

Thank you for your suggestion! My dad also told me that he didn't see refrigerant flow on the sight glass, and i'll get him to check on the tx valve and bulb positions. any other suggestions? i appreciate all your help!

[Tapas K Mitra]

It appears your compressor is gone.You have to replace the entire system. R-22 uses mineral oil. But R404A is not suitable for mineral oil. It is suited to synthetic oil. But this synthetic oil is very sensitive. It absorbs moisture very easily. For replacement of R-22, you have to flush out the old oil change the TXV and vacuum the system. if you have not done that, there is no way to save your compressor.

[l3astardd]

It appears your compressor is gone.You have to replace the entire system. R-22 uses mineral oil. But R404A is not suitable for mineral oil. It is suited to synthetic oil. But this synthetic oil is very sensitive. It absorbs moisture very easily. For replacement of R-22, you have to flush out the old oil change the TXV and vacuum the system. if you have not done that, there is no way to save your compressor.

Thats exactly what my dad was thinking from the beginning but he just wanted me to come here and ask to see if there are any other possibilities, but your response confirmed it. thank you

[l3astardd]

my dad's actually planning on replacing the compressor with one that's compatible with the R404 and the tx valve, what do you guys think?

[lowcool]

if dad purchased new compressor i would be inclined to wash out as much compressor oil charge as possible i use shellite,x55,b1 solvent cleaner,purge through with nitrogen to vaporise liquid.then apply a good vacumm and recharge with oil as per manufacturer specs assuming the compressor still runs.fully flush and reprocess system,new drier and valve too

[l3astardd]

thank you very much, i really appreciate your help. how exactly should he go about using those solvent cleaners to purge the system? this is his first time working on a project like this so he doesnt know much.

[icecube51]

Yep,
looks like a fine mess yore dad got himself into....
try and clean the hole lot, make sure there is nothing left in the pipes or evaps..ore so one.
do a triple vacuum and break each time whit NO². then fil up the wright amount of refrig an start it up. repeat this after 24 hrs and change the filter dryer(s). then do some readings and come back to us whit the gatered info.
suc6, Ice

[tonyhavcr]

[quote=l3astardd;174971]I'm sorry for the misinformation, I am not a refrigeration engineer ( i just put that down b/c its what this site was called). Anyways, My dad replaced a freezer that runs on R22, with another freezer that runs on R404. It would have been a huge project to replace all the pipes so he decided to use the old pipes, which definately had R22 residues. Now that he got the new system connected without cleaning the pipes, he put in R404 and tried to run the freezer but he doesn't see the fluid flow on the screen he's talking about. He started the machine today and the freezer can actually achieve up to 0 degrees Farenheit. The electric current is normal, but after the machine ran for about 30 minutes, the electric current suddenly jumped up so he turned off the machine immediately knowing that there's a huge problem. His plan now is to take out all the oils in the pipes (taking out the U-shaped pipes that traps oil and pour out all the refrigerant) and then replace the drier. He can't clean out the oils that are already inside the compressor so cleaning out the pipes is all that he can do. He's wondering if this will work out. He's desperately looking for suggestions on how to fix this whole mess

(please let me know if this is misleading because i have no experience with freezers and i'm just translating, i REALLY appreciate all the help and reply from you guys, thank you!)


To catwaladr: - suction: 10 PSI delivery: 125 PSI, the drier is new, and he believes the TEV shouldnt have any problems and he believes everything else is fine except for the fact that he put R404 in pipes that had R22






This is a hard one to rap your head around.
( My dad replaced a freezer that runs on R22, with another freezer that runs on R404. )
He replaced a R22 condenser w/ a R404a condenser but did not change the txv and evaporator right?

(he decided to use the old pipes, which definitely had R22 residues. ) OK he may have a little mineral oil in the system 98% of the oil is ester oil I may be more worried of to much oil then the little bit of mineral oil.
this little residue will not make a unit that ran for about 30 minutes, the electric current suddenly jumped up.


(My dad also told me that he didn't see refrigerant flow on the sight glass, and i'll get him to check on the tx valve and bulb positions. any other suggestions?)

He didn't see refrigerant flow on the sight glass, ok
fine we know its working anyways how it pulled down to 0 deg.

(my dad's actually planning on replacing the compressor with one that's compatible with the R404 and the tx valve, what do you guys think?)

Why if he put in a 404a condenser then .....wait for it....................... the compressor is compatible w/ r404a replacing the txv is smart thing
maby but I think Dad needs to bring n a tech has done more refrigeration work this will save him a lot of time and money

[tonyhavcr]

sounds to me that your dad is describing the affect of putting 404A in a system that was previously running 22 with mineral oil,mineral oil and 404 are not very good friends.
a system flush and oil change is in order,tx valve change would be a good idea also

cheers stewy

lowcool you are right mineral oil will not mix with 404a
this will give you vary poor oil return but I do know of refrigeration co. that use a 50/50 mix oil the oils in 134a and 404a systems out there. When I ask why its faster then flushing they will say.
I ask what of you compressor life .
I was told that they have systems out there runing for the past 9 yrs this way with no problems.

its like they say its better to be lucky then good.

[l3astardd]

Does anyone know how to use cleaners? do i just pour them in?

[lowcool]

i use a charging cylinder with nitrogen as the propellant,fill the cylinder up with solvent oil etc,apply pressure to vent inside of cylinder with the outlet dip tube to the bottom of cylinder,cleaner etc gets forced out and through the system under pressure.

[9 below zero]

Do yourself a favour;sent the complete system to the sprap yard and invest in a new one a lot less hassle,and it will work,what you don;t understand leave well alone.