Aussie Split Install

[FreezerGeezer]

Hello all

I may need to have a small (about 4KW) split installed in our place in Toowoomba, Queensland.
I'm told that I can get a LG unit from the equivalent of B&Q for $1925 installed. To me, that sounds a little dodgy - who does the installing, and would they do the work to the standard that one of us here would?
Have the Aussie guys got any thoughts on this, or possibly an interest in quoting / recommending someone?
I'm not looking to install this soon, as funds are a bit low having just got married, but I do need to look at it seriously, so any assistance would be much appreciated.

[eggs]

Sounds dodgy?
Have you seen what 'Comet' are trying to charge for a 2.7kw Samsung Bionizer?
Now that is dodgy.

cheers

eggs

[eggs]

http://www.comet.co.uk/comet/html/cache/93_200417.html

found it.

cheers

eggs

[FreezerGeezer]

How the hell are you going to install & maintain for a year on that, unless you live next door?
I wonder how much money the installing company gets for it's trouble.

[Peter_1]

How the hell are you going to install & maintain for a year on that, unless you live next door?
I wonder how much money the installing company gets for it's trouble.

It's the same bad selling strategy Daikin is using now in Belgium.
I had some posts about this subject in the past.

[andrewuk]

stiff competition,low profit margins ,big company try to cut out middle men to keep more of the shrinking pie for them selves ,the small go under or get bought out ,big manufacturers buy the big contracting companies so they have someone to install at low prices and profits ,then they push out the small guy or buy them out so they can control the whole supply chain from manufacture to install and mantainance in an attempt to get the small profits from each stage of the chain thus hopeing they can get a reasonable over all profit margin for their share holders .
then we will all be employed by some bean counter in some big company earning 50p an hour and be happy doing it with a smile on our happy faces.

[Temprite]

Hello all

I may need to have a small (about 4KW) split installed in our place in Toowoomba, Queensland.
I'm told that I can get a LG unit from the equivalent of B&Q for $1925 installed. To me, that sounds a little dodgy - who does the installing, and would they do the work to the standard that one of us here would?
Have the Aussie guys got any thoughts on this, or possibly an interest in quoting / recommending someone?
I'm not looking to install this soon, as funds are a bit low having just got married, but I do need to look at it seriously, so any assistance would be much appreciated.

Freezer Geezer.
Install prices not including electrical but include supply of unit and GST.

Daikin 3.5 kw inverter reverse cycle wall mount.
reverse cycle.
$1770 Aus.

Daikin 5kw inverter reverse cycle wall mount.
reverse cycle.
$2260 Aus.

These are mininum prices.Prices may be more depending on travel,pipe run,difficulty etc.

Units are leak tested and evacuated and all pipework is covered or concealed.

Just like any other country we have good and bad tradespeople.

We are not all convicts over here you know.

[jg/oz]

Dear Freeser Geezer in Toowoomba Aussiland.

Difficult decission for you,basics are:

In your nick of the wood you need "reverse" because of the extremes in temp.

Just use an "el-cheapo" eg one made by Gree China ( production approx 1.5 mill.p/y) or similar brands.

Most "el-cheapo's" are supplied with copper tubing and electrical
wiring. 4kw capacity may cost in your main shopping street approx A$ 450.--. If you are not running the thing for long hours
( which most private household don't do) or use yearly less than
500 hr per year, an inverter unit is useless and cost far to much to justify the extra costs.

Get some brackets from the local hardware store, fit the unit yourself and blow the air out of the piping and let the unit run.
( Don't forget to have a look at the 1 m2 instruction sheet provided with the unit).

Also buy a brand with 5 year Warranty and if you have a problem after 5 year just buy a new set and install again.
By that time prices will probably have dropped even further.

Today Gree China sells a 2.5 Kw unit (split ) for A$ 92.-- ex works, provided you buy a 20fr container full.

Keep saving-- but this is as cheap as it will get for you.

jg/oz

( NB I have not taken into account the Aussi rules and regulations regarding "refrigerant fluids", but if that is a problem
buy a R290 DeLonghi Meastro series unit with Propane refrigerant and you have nill problems with regulations)

[botrous]

Holly **** , i read your posts , what in the hell are those prices , a 4kw LG will coast you in Lebanon arround 600 USD and it's installing will coast about 100 USD , if you buy it form a household mall , you will have it installed for free and sure you will have a minimum of 3 years of warranty

[eskimo2]

Aussie.i live australia and am in the game...dont get an elcheapo...you'll regret it when you need spares...
go for mitsubishi electric, daikin or fujitsu...lg arent to bad but an ordinary fridgie getting his hands on spares can be a pain...

And remember........ get a qualified person to install

[jg/oz]

Dear friend from Libanon,

Brisbane (Aussiland) "ALDI" ( huge German supermarket chain-setting up Supermarkets in Australia ) 2 HP split 6.3 KW
China brand 5 year warranty- this week in the special A$ 599.-
U$ 450.--

prices will drop in your nick of the wood soon.

[botrous]

Prices are dropping due to the huge production of the far eastern countries such as china , malaysa . . .
Note , some chinese tradmark are in someway reliable , sure if you find after sales service and spare parts

[jg/oz]

Dear Botrous,

China makes approx 15 million split systems a year, most under
known brandnames eg Carrier, Toshiba ,some Panasonic etc etc
If you want to buy one or 2 -20ft containers from China with Splits ,your company name will be branded on the splits, quality wise most Chinese brands are exellent quality but with all stuff if you pay peanuts for a splits you get rubbisch in the end.

Parts is not a problem provided you have a good importing wholesaler. EG Aldi cannot afford to have a after service sales
and so have well known other whitegood sales centres.
A respectable manufactureres in China will control their good name in area's where their eqquipment is sold, the want to sell more in that area in the future and you cannot do the with
bad after salkes service.

Unfortunately most Split installers have problems with my thinking and prefer to sell themselves preferably
inverter systems and a decent margin including expensive
installation. Their is nothing wrong with that only in the end the installation cost nears more than the split cost in most cases and thats a bit odd nowadays.

And even if you have a problem after 5 years just buy a new one and use the existing piping to do the change over job yourself in probably 1-1/2 hour.

Good luck

[botrous]

Chinese trade mark as Gree are well respected here , but others beleive me it's a headeck that you want not to be involved in . . .
Installing High quality AC's = peace of mind

[Stuart]

Dear Freeser Geezer in Toowoomba Aussiland.

Difficult decission for you,basics are:

In your nick of the wood you need "reverse" because of the extremes in temp.

Just use an "el-cheapo" eg one made by Gree China ( production approx 1.5 mill.p/y) or similar brands.

Most "el-cheapo's" are supplied with copper tubing and electrical
wiring. 4kw capacity may cost in your main shopping street approx A$ 450.--. If you are not running the thing for long hours
( which most private household don't do) or use yearly less than
500 hr per year, an inverter unit is useless and cost far to much to justify the extra costs.

Get some brackets from the local hardware store, fit the unit yourself and blow the air out of the piping and let the unit run.
( Don't forget to have a look at the 1 m2 instruction sheet provided with the unit).

Also buy a brand with 5 year Warranty and if you have a problem after 5 year just buy a new set and install again.
By that time prices will probably have dropped even further.
Warranty would be void due to bad installation by un licenced persons

Today Gree China sells a 2.5 Kw unit (split ) for A$ 92.-- ex works, provided you buy a 20fr container full.

Keep saving-- but this is as cheap as it will get for you.

jg/oz

( NB I have not taken into account the Aussi rules and regulations regarding "refrigerant fluids", but if that is a problem
buy a R290 DeLonghi Meastro series unit with Propane refrigerant and you have nill problems with regulations)

This is the sort of cowboy that the australian government is trying to eradicate using the licence program. It is down to this thinking there is a gigantic hole in the Ozone layer above Australia which in turn is causing an increased level of skin cancer in men, women & children.
I have no argument over using cheaper units but they MUST be installed according to rules & regulations

This sort of malpractice should be discouraged & reported whenever possible.

I invite other techs to comment on the text in the attached message!!

[jg/oz]

Dear Stuart,

Good to comment and your comments make sence, however
splits are installed in dark Afrika by untrained people and as long
as they follow the (1 m2) instruction manual nothing can go wrong.In Afrika you can not afford leakages so they are made
near leakproof and work most of the time till destructed.

I can understand that you try to protect your Industry but...
if a Split can be made for A$ 92.-- in China than installation cost
of $400.-- in Australia are a bit ridiculous. I believe up to 2-1/2 hp in Australia does not justify an inverter (up to the line Brisbane-Perth).

Installation by a qualified( having a refrigeration licence) technician is a bit of an overkill I think. If I train 10 monkeys
to install a split than after the third install, they will be able to do the job completely by themselves. I mean domestic stuff upto 18 kW

Incidently I have been in the Industry for 40 years, a qualified
mechanical engineer but have been in the big stuff so my views
on domestics are different than yours.

regards jg/oz

[eskimo2]

One must look at several things to justify cost..i wouldnt install a split for less than AU$500.00
Average cost of installs i do are around AU$800.00 mark.
I dont do too many as i am mainly commercial
cost of wages here are dearer than most other places.
laws require only qualified persons to open refrigerant lines and do electrical works.
qualified means that one must do appropriate trade qualifications and that means years of schooling and practical experience...none of these and you cant do the job.
Then add on to this expectations of customer coupled to shortage of trade persons and this also pushes up prices.

I need to make a living and yes my expectations are probably more than some others and less than others but i want a comfortable life while i am working and one must also save for the future....these thigs keep prices up....supply and demand etc etc...

if Gree units are only AU$92 + shipping and import costs then its no wonder we have some very cheap units in our market. but I will always buy and SELL quality brand names...and Gree at this point in time is not included

[jg/oz]

dear eskimo2
thanks for your reply,
as useall we all like to be next year millionaires.

In the split case, you are right about the fuss of being
qualified, in Qld you are not even allowed as a qualified
refrigeration technician to connect the electricals of the split
(inside unit with outside unit).

I do understand that connecting a new line from the meter box to the unit with a working switch is too much to ask from a technician and need to be done by an electrician .

Connecting and installing a split goes a bit far to my views for a fully qualified technician. I bet that the majority of domestic splits with HCFC22 are installed by DIY'ers.

If you use R290 splits you are totally out of the legislation and even a plumber can legally install the lot ( ex electrical)

[Stuart]

dear eskimo2
thanks for your reply,
as useall we all like to be next year millionaires.

In the split case, you are right about the fuss of being
qualified, in Qld you are not even allowed as a qualified
refrigeration technician to connect the electricals of the split
(inside unit with outside unit).

I do understand that connecting a new line from the meter box to the unit with a working switch is too much to ask from a technician and need to be done by an electrician .

Connecting and installing a split goes a bit far to my views for a fully qualified technician. I bet that the majority of domestic splits with HCFC22 are installed by DIY'ers.

If you use R290 splits you are totally out of the legislation and even a plumber can legally install the lot ( ex electrical)

I am greatly concerned that jg/oz is & has been installing units for years....

You'll be telling me next that you still blow the coils off with refrigerant!!!!!!!!

All systems should be LEAK FREE (granted we do not live in an ideal word & accidents can & do happen) not near leak free.

Also I do not see what Africa has to do with things but seeing as you bring it up. The units installed over there are I would bet ARE leak free due to having been installed by good engineers & the lack of hole in the Ozone layer.

The trouble with Australia is that there is nobody to police the licenceing system, & if a layman sees a bad engineer blowing off gas they don't really know what is being done & if it against regulations.

I wish that DIY'er didn't fit the systems themselves & just turn them on, but of course it does & will happen.
If someone has fitted the system themselves it should be checked by a qualified engineer before commissioning. This I have done and only charge a nominal fee for my services.

The R290 is another problem in itself........

What happens if the system is fitted by a plumber & there is a leak on the indoor flare (not uncommon due to various installation problems that we all know can arise). There is now a risk of an explosion with the highly flamable gas in the atmosphere inside the unit,if a component on the indoor board pops due to power spike, or small spark from the fan motor starting. I can't remember the percentage of gas to air needed for an explosive enviroment. The indoor unit could be blown off the wall.

Dont get me wrong I am not being high and mighty here but I just belive that you should use the correct tool for the job I.E 10mm ring spanner for 10mm nut-qualified engineer for whatever job is being done not just refrigerant.

After all would you use a plasterer to install a new G.P.O

[jg/oz]

Dear friend,
Read your comments with interest and at least you let us know what your views are.
To answer some of your questions:

1/ Yes in the past I installed ( with qualified staff) hundreds of split systems and as far as I know they are still running OK. Most people are getting in the end (8/9 years)
Problems with their remote-controls.

Yes we blew a bit of HCFC22 to clean the copper interconnecting tubes (approx 20 gram). In my precious life in Europe I had a transport refrigeration company (with
40 qualified technicians) on of our customers a Reefer company had at that time 40.000 refrigerated containers which per ship needed a pre-trip. Most problems were with leaks and one of the largest companies at that time in transport gear was Thermo-King. In their instruction manuals it was written that when a system had been opened
For what ever reason NEW refrigerant had to be re-charged before the job was done.
We used at that time approx 1 Ton refrigerant per month ??? So I know what CFC problems are.

If you blow of 20 gram of HCFC-22 is less than the 28% leakage rate in supermarket
Equipment on a yearly bases. Both major supermarkets in Australia at present spent approx 1 million A$ a year on topping up their system.

All systems should be leak free-----nothing in the world is leak-free ( that is a fact) that’s why I use leak free or as good as it gets (leaking). Evacuating technology is something most people in the refrigeration trade have no idea off.

Africa- what I meant to say is Monkey see Monkey do—with 1 m2 of instruction
Manual/sheet you can’t go wrong if you do what is written on the sheet, even
Electrical connections are basically explained.

Licensing system were working on that. As per 1 July you need to be registered by
Federal Government board system.

I just was yesterday at K-Markt and found a 1 hp ( 2.6 kW) split ( reverse cycle)
R22 (?????) with 3 year full warranty for A$ 299.--. I have to realize that buyers are
Not paying A$ 400 or more for installation. ???
This unit came with nice electrical wires ( 4 m) , copper tubing 3/8,1/4 “ inch insulation and all relative flares. So if you Monkey see……………………….

R290—which is propane ( 97% pure)---Not barbeque gas.

The storey is good but……………………………… it has never worked like you explained. Your washing machine at home (electric) is 10 times more (deadly) dangerous than AC with R290. Have you got a problem with a washing machine ???

I do realize that you are trying to protect your industry but as is common practice
“Refrigeration” lost –Domestic fridges and freezer, Car air-conditioning, large industrial stuff, large AC stuff, and is now going to loose HC stuff.

I predict that within 15 years all equipment made in a factory with approx less than
1 kg flammable refrigerant will be HCs and you need to be trained to able to service this. Car AC will be HC or flammable R152a or if that in not legally accepted CO2
Which is a whole new area for the refrigeration techie.

Anyway no hard feelings but sometimes I get the strong feeling that most “refrigeration techies “ are just following the “BS” spread out by “Chemicalia”

Cheers
Jg/oz

NB Very soon their will be in Sydney a seminar from NRTB for 1 day on the issue
Of HC’s, Unilever ( in Australia eg Street Ice-cream) is trying to offload their new philosophy of Ice-cream cabinets have to be environmentally friendly and have chosen for HC R290. At present 90.000 HC charged freezers are running in Europe
And in Australia they like to spread approx 15.000. So a good reason to get to know HC and attend. Both MacDonald’s and Coke have intentions to go over to Natural Refrigerant.

http://www.aircondtech.co.uk/buy_domestic_1.html

http://www.refrigerantsnaturally.com/

[tsangep]

Hi
The elcheapos are very cheap and you can get a 3.5 hp for $800 from ebay complete with all pipes and cables. The machines have 2 star energy efficency and fans are strong and a bit noisy but are very durable and very good for shops where indoor fan noise cannot be heard and extra strong air flow is highly desirable.
When the machine dies after 8-10 years its much cheaper to throw the lot out but saying that its also easy to substitute parts such as duable ebm fans and coperland compressors.
Cheap is good as all machines are built cheap these days.

[Makanic]

Holly **** , i read your posts , what in the hell are those prices , a 4kw LG will coast you in Lebanon arround 600 USD and it's installing will coast about 100 USD , if you buy it form a household mall , you will have it installed for free and sure you will have a minimum of 3 years of warranty

$100 jeez ,A local service call cost More
Let alone installing the Thing

[RickSter]

An LG 3.5kw Reverse Cycle split would cost an installer about $900
Electrician would cost $200
That leaves $825 for someone to Pipe and put it in . The going rate can go down to as low as $400 here in Queensland , Australia.

A smaller business can make a living out of this as long as travelling is not a factor.

They probably would not carry out any warranty servicing but give the customer the option and let them know of the requirements for the warranty of the unit to be void.

The company I work for would not touch the job due to the distance from the northside of Brisbane.

Get some info from the people who want to put it in and look at their credentials , ie electrical ticket, contractors licence, CFC licence.

Hope this helps.

[The MG Pony]

R-290 is so safe it isn't funny, you don't get earth shatering explosions from a minore leak, at worst a puff!

If there was a leak in the evap with the fan going it wouldn't ignite at all!

[chickenexp]

im a installer in sydney and i charge no more than $500 for a back to back split on avarige it's $350-$400 just for the install..and lg splits r a bag of ****..