De-Icing problem on PANASONIC E12BKP

[Charma]

PANASONIC E12BKP
Problems with de-icing on the outdoor-unit.

The inner section is cleaned, and new fan-motor with new type of bearing set in.

FaultCode F11 is active. I.e. errors on 4-way valve or V-coil.

The problem is that the outdoor-unit cant manage the de-icing on the outdoor-unit, when the 4-way valve is turned.
The fan on the outdoor-unit do not stop to rotate under the de-icing process. I`am not sure if the fan should come to completle stop when de-icing happens, and, if it is here the problem is located?

Have tried to de-ice with hot water. After start-up the heat exchanger was effective, and gave much heat from the inner-unit. The ice also smoothly came over the all area on the outdoor-unit exchanger.
After a period in full operation the unit went to de-icing mode, and in connection with this – the problem start. The outdoor-unit do not carry out the effective de-icing.
I can under the de-icing process see of power-consumption, that the compressor works itself up, and consumption is located at approximately 550 W - 600 W.

What can be the problem with bad de-icing?

[nike123]

Wrong cable connections with outdoor unit if it is non-inverter!

[Charma]

This is an INVERTER,
which is varying the frequency of the compressor.

[nike123]

This is an INVERTER,
which is varying the frequency of the compressor.

Than check that 4Way (reversing) valve is not energized during defrost.

8.2.20. Deice Operation Control
This control is applicable for Heating Mode operation only.
Deice operation occurs when the deice operation starting signal is generated. This happens when one of he following condition
occurs. However, the first deice operation will begin one hour after the start of heating mode operation.
Condition Outdoor heat exchanger
temp. Th < 3°C
In between, for 3 minutes,
outdoor heat exchanger
temp. Th
Provided, compressor is
ON and outdoor air temp.
To
1 For 120 minutes < -6°C > -1°C
2 For 80 minutes < -7°C > -1°C
3 For 40 minutes < -9°C -3°C
4 For 40 minutes < -11°C > -3°C
Once the deice operation signal produced, the instructed frequency for the operation of compressor will be set to zero hertz (0 Hz)
for 30 seconds. Then, deice operation starts with both indoor and outdoor fan motor, and 4-way valve turn off for 30 seconds. The
compressor operates following the frequency as shown in below chart that depending on outdoor heat exchanger temperature and
operation period, with a maximum of 10 minutes and 30 seconds. When the deice operation ends, before back to normal operation,
the instructed frequency for compressor will be set to zero hertz (0 Hz) again and outdoor fan motor will turn on for a period of 59
seconds.

[Charma]

Thanks for answer Nike 123
Then there is a located problem:
The out-door fan is still running when the de-ising is ongoing.
I have also observed that the out-door fan have nearly the same rotation all time....
Otherwise the heatpump seem to operate correctly.
What further action could be taken for resolving the problem?

[nike123]

Thanks for answer Nike 123
Then there is a located problem:
The out-door fan is still running when the de-ising is ongoing.
I have also observed that the out-door fan have nearly the same rotation all time....
Otherwise the heatpump seem to operate correctly.
What further action could be taken for resolving the problem?

If fan is driven by Solid State Relay, it is possible that is faulty SSR relay.

[back2space]

Thanks for answer Nike 123
Then there is a located problem:
The out-door fan is still running when the de-ising is ongoing.
I have also observed that the out-door fan have nearly the same rotation all time....
Otherwise the heatpump seem to operate correctly.
What further action could be taken for resolving the problem?

The fan runs on my outdoor unit when it is defrosting unless it is below 0C at which case it is stopped.

[stefs_cruiser]

On this model Pana the outdoor fan stop during most of deice cycle.
this may be market dependant, but in Australia the fan is controlled by a normal relay, not an SSR, although still possible, but less like to fail in an ON state..

[yangchenchen]

One of our customer in Eropean said that our air source heat pump does not defrost, and at last , he found: our outdoor fan is 220V driven, and they connect 380v to it, so when defrost the outdoor unit fan does not stop , so the result of defrost is not very well, and then they connect 220v to the fan, and all is well now.

[nike123]

One of our customer in Eropean said that our air source heat pump does not defrost, and at last , he found: our outdoor fan is 220V driven, and they connect 380v to it, so when defrost the outdoor unit fan does not stop , so the result of defrost is not very well, and then they connect 220v to the fan, and all is well now.

Impossible story!

[Charma]

The fan in the out-part unit shall not rotate during de-icing.
But my fan rotates on low RPM all the time.
Even when I stop the unit in "OFF-position" the fan rotate.
There is no power in the rotation, for I can stop the the rotation easy, with a finger!
I tried to stop the fan-rotation under an de-icing sequence, an then the de-icing was efficacious.
Then the main problem is located: -)
and the question is:
Is the out-door fan faulty?
Or is it an faulty SSR relay?
How can I check this out?
And why do the fan get a little power to the low rotation?
Have not been measured the power supply to the fan, when it rotate.
There are 3 cables which goes to fan motor. (from where?)
Is there any that has been on the same problem? Or know what can be wrong?

Has also problem to deleted the FaultCode F11. -errors on 4-way valve or V-coil-. I dont think the fault is active.
In any case: I thought that the error-code could be deleted, for so to come up again if it still was active .....

[nike123]

The fan in the out-part unit shall not rotate during de-icing.
But my fan rotates on low RPM all the time.
Even when I stop the unit in "OFF-position" the fan rotate.
There is no power in the rotation, for I can stop the the rotation easy, with a finger!

It indicate faulty fan condenser or bad auxiliary winding, or faulty wiring of fan motor and/or condenser.

I tried to stop the fan-rotation under an de-icing sequence, an then the de-icing was efficacious.
Then the main problem is located: -)
and the question is:
Is the out-door fan faulty?

Check by connecting fan directly to line voltage!
Check condenser by change it with new one of same capacity.

Or is it an faulty SSR relay?
How can I check this out?

Check this document:
http://tinyurl.com/yculc8z

But, acoording to diagram of simmilar unit, it is probably regular relay.
His designation at printed board should be RY-FM.
Check correct operation of that relay and RC filter CR102 (you could remove it for test purpose and try to run without it).

And why do the fan get a little power to the low rotation?
Have not been measured the power supply to the fan, when it rotate.

Measure it.

There are 3 cables which goes to fan motor. (from where?)

One is common neutral, one is line to main winding and one is line from condenser to auxiliary winding.

Has also problem to deleted the FaultCode F11. -errors on 4-way valve or V-coil-. I dont think the fault is active.
In any case: I thought that the error-code could be deleted, for so to come up again if it still was active .....

The memory data of error code is erased when the power supply is cut off, or press the Auto Switch until “beep” sound heard
following by pressing the “RESET” button at remote controller.

Here is service manual:
http://tinyurl.com/yeh29z9

[Charma]

I have started with measuring the power supply to the fan, when it rotate.
And it is 220V over Blue and Yellow. (look at pict 1)
And the fan sill rotate slowly.
Which colored cable shall be in use when the fan rotates?
If it is the blue and yellow? it seems to be lokated to the fan-motor... (Since it is 220v over the cables)...
What aboat the red cable?
Attatched: wiring diagrams.

[Charma]

I have started with measuring the power supply to the fan, when it rotate.
And it is 220V over Blue and Yellow. (look at pict 1)
And the fan sill rotate slowly.
Which colored cable shall be in use when the fan rotates?
If it is the blue and yellow? it seems to be lokated to the fan-motor... (Since it is 220v over the cables)...
What aboat the red cable?
Attatched: wiring diagrams.

Can you mail me? sveinao@hotmail.com

[nike123]

I have started with measuring the power supply to the fan, when it rotate.
And it is 220V over Blue and Yellow. (look at pict 1)
And the fan sill rotate slowly.
Which colored cable shall be in use when the fan rotates?

All 3!

One is common neutral (Yelow), one is line to main winding (Blue) and one is line from condenser to auxiliary winding (RED).

It could be different when main socket connection plug is 180°rotated.

One is common line (Yelow), one is neutral to main winding (Blue) and one is neutral from condenser to auxiliary winding (RED).

If it is the blue and yellow? it seems to be located to the fan-motor... (Since it is 220v over the cables)...

You need to learn some basics of how 1phase induction motor works.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_13/9.html

What aboat the red cable?

Between red and yellow you should have also 220V.
If not, you have faulty condenser.
If yes, you could still have faulty condenser or fan motor. Change condenser, here it cost less than 2 Euro.

Also, your relay is faulty, or PCB is faulty, since your fan does not turn off.
Check that relay doesn't have 12V DC at relay coil when you switch of heating or cooling.
If you have, than PCB is faulty. If not, and you still have 220V at fan, than relay has welded contacts and need to be changed with same, or similar by characteristics and dimensions.

[nike123]

Can you mail me? sveinao@hotmail.com

Why?..........

[Charma]

I have measured the fan motor, and so long, the problem seems to here.
No resistance could be measured between the blue and yellow. Eighter between the yellow and red. But between the red and blue, it was around 430 ohm.
Windings a little bit burned..
May be therefor the fan was rotating slowly...
So - I have to get me another fan... Do you have fans like this?
The number is: F81A6P29AM 6P 29W ( 50Hz 230-240V ~ CONT) A951126

[nike123]

I have measured the fan motor, and so long, the problem seems to here.
No resistance could be measured between the blue and yellow. Eighter between the yellow and red. But between the red and blue, it was around 430 ohm.
Windings a little bit burned..
May be therefor the fan was rotating slowly...
So - I have to get me another fan... Do you have fans like this?
The number is: F81A6P29AM 6P 29W ( 50Hz 230-240V ~ CONT) A951126

Leave fan disconnected for some time to cool down and check resistance again because it has temperature-overload protection inside windings.
If it looks burned, than probably it is.
Change condenser and fan relay also!

[Charma]

I have now order`d a new fan, and are probably ready for re-start of the plant on Thursday evening.

[Charma]

New status, and last update:

The HeatPump is now back in full operation.
The problems was caused by an faulty fan motor, and because the fan was rotating on a low speed. Even during the de-icing process.
Due to an low air-cirkulation through the heat exchanger under the de-icing, the result was un-effectively - with build-up of ice and a low heat effect.
After the change to new fan-motor, the fan rotation is correct during all operations, and with a completely stop under the de-icing process.

Error-codes is also cleard out.

Thank you all - for inputs,
and a Special thanks to Nike for all help.
Best regards, Charma