Environment Issues

[Latte]

Hi Guys,

Yes, i am sitting here probably with too much time to spare and i have some thoughts i will share with you.

Has the Montreal Protocol made any difference to the environment

Here's my line of thinking, Whilst some countries are well into the phase out there are a lot more who are not.

I this industry although i know there are some cowboys who vent, most enginners are well trained in the job that they are doing and are fairly consientious when it comes to their actions.

Are we damaging the planet more by creating more waste with old units that can no longer be used becase they cannot use the new gases.

We are creating more and more different types of gas when 20 years ago there were only a couple.

Are we being blamed for the damage to the ozone layer when in practice our actions are not as bad as everone who like to think.

Now, i realise that we have to start somewhere, buy do YOU think that Montreal will/is working to help OR creating more problems

Regards

Fatboy

[frank]

I don't know the answers to most of your question Raymond but I've got to say that without the change in direction brought on by the Montreal Protocol, we wouldn't now be using R410a and the latest inverter driven compressors on the a/c front. Working with this gas and kit I'm converted to the benefits and energy savings.

If you can, have a close look at the Daikin VRVII equipment

[frank]

I agree with Frank

My heart is warmed

[Brian_UK]

I agree with Frank (well, at least as far as this issue is concerned).

Dammit, he's had too be nice again

Hey, Fatboy I think things are/have improved but I fear the continual change of gas types.

Yes, no doubt we are more efficient now but all we have done is separate ourselves (the "Western World") further from the "Third World" technologies. They are trying to catch up with us and we keep moving the goalposts, as usual.

I sometimes wonder whether they thought that if only the far east (general term, don't shoot me) is producing the nasty gases the the hole in the ozone will relocate above them and that'll teach 'em.

[frank]

Why do I have "general nice guy" included in my profile. Please, can't someone change that to "general forum menace".... please !!

Done

See my public profile

[frank]

nearly

my leather jacket's brown

[eggs]

i,m sure that i once read somewhere, the manufacturing process of r410a caused more damage to the environment through increased carbon blah blah blah from the electricity usage blah blah blah, you know what i'm trying to say in my own untechnical way. Than the manufacture of R22.
Also these 410a inverter systems are only more more ecconomical to run on part load. when on full load their electricity consumption is horrific.

wait i'm on to somthing here.

on another newsgroup i also read "if you want to win a job, price on 120w/m2"
So you promise the earth, selling the most ecconomical inverter 410 system, with the promise of tax savings with the ECA. Running cost savings because of the inverter etc etc etc

then you install the thing, ang it runs it's bollox off (because it's undersized, and nevermind it's an inverter so it'll do an extra couple of kw's)
Then they get their electricity bill

i forgot what the post was about now!


oh yes the montreal thing.

they win again, like the skillcard people. just job and revenue creation for pen pushers and do gooders.
The government sign us up to crap like this for their own gains.
a) vat revenue from people installing new kit
b) tax revenue for same reason
C) exta tax and vat revenue from the sale of new tools to install new systems
d) more tax and vat from the "training" providers "teaching" us about this new kit.
e)more tax revenue from the increased cost of running this "cconomical"kit.
f) even more for the destruction of these old reclaimed gases.

the list goes on.

now i am sure, that if sombody sat down and calculated the COST TO THE ENVIRONMENT, the creation of all this energy efficiency caused, it would be far more detrimental than sticking with the good old r22 etc.

i know what i'm trying to say in my own head, i just find it difficult to express in writing.

does it make sense to anybody else?

in my opinion, a correctly sized r22, fixed speed air conditioning system, leak proof causes less damage to the environment than an all singing and dancing 410a inverter system.
in addition to the gas manufacturing process, the savings (to the environment) could also be accounted for, in the motor fuel consumption of going backwards and forwards trying to fix one of the things when they break down.

i'm shutting up now!

cheers

eggs

[eggs]

well it could be discussed (argued)several ways.
i agree that without the protocol we wouldn't have the inverters and 410, which are potentially energy efficient.
but with respect to the protocol's main meaning of saving the planet. i don't think, these efficient systems will make a difference on the grand scale of things, due to reasons i mentioned earlier.
first of all, over keen sales men undersizing systems, to win a contract based on price. Then these systems running unefficiently and over polluting the atmosphere.
secondly, the energy used in the destruction of plant and gas condemned to an early death on the promise (again buy salesmen) of lower fuel bill for the client.

So, i agree and i don't agree
i just like to discuss

cheers

eggs

[PobodysNerfect]

That we would not have inverters if not for the Montréal protocol, I thing it is a stretch

Anyway, I understand Rdocwras concern: Do we get the biggest bang for the buck here?

The Montreal and Kyoto protocol cost a lot of money to implement. Could we have done more for the environment if we had invested all this money in Africa; preventing hunger, created clean drinking water and sustainable development in general (more people to create values in a sustainable manner). Or are there other areas where we could have received a better pay back?

Should we not prioritize? But the easiest thing is to pretend we can afford everything.

Jan

[RogGoetsch]

. . . now i am sure, that if sombody sat down and calculated the COST TO THE ENVIRONMENT, the creation of all this energy efficiency caused, it would be far more detrimental than sticking with the good old r22 etc.

i know what i'm trying to say in my own head, i just find it difficult to express in writing.

What you're trying to say is "Grumble, grumble, grumble."

Lot of that going around. Feel better yet?

Fact is, gentlemen, there are a lot of us and more arriving than departing every day. Besides grumbling, we also have a knack for leaving behind us great piles of steaming sh*t.

In our happy nomadic days, the wiser of the group would detect the growing stench and remark that the neighborhood needed improving. Agreeing, the tribe would comply by packing up and leaving the neighborhood. Problem solved.

Now we've run out of places to run and our high-tech sh*t has spread around the planet. So the wiser among us have warned us and we have begun, with much grumbling, to create less sh*t than before. Maybe there's a better way but if we wait around arguing about a perfect plan, being about as wise as our ancestors, we'll probably disagree until it kills us. Given there's more and more of us producing more and more of it, it's only a question of when, not if.

No one likes all the extra hassles. I don't like growing older, stupider and uglier every day, either. Too bad. The alternative doesn't sound better yet, so I'll stick around a while longer and I'll sure as hell not spend valuable minutes bitching and moaning. (Ranting, maybe. Grumbling, not.)

Rog

[frank]

first of all, over keen sales men undersizing systems,

We should not allow salesmen to design systems

Then these systems running unefficiently and over polluting the atmosphere.

The whole point of these systems is that they are not inefficient

[eggs]

frank, in our country they are ecconomical because the systems run at part load for the majority of the time.
Where as our friend from alt.hvac over the pond (perfect usa nobodey i think its called) should be aware that in the hotter parts of it's country these systems run at full load, therefore un-ecconomical.
have the good old us of a signed up to the protocol yet ?
or are they still sustaining their own ecconomy with their free trade (out of ) the country?
as far as moving with the times.
i'm sorry to tar all these men with the same brush, but have they heared of vrv, vrf and inverters yet? the last ones i spoke to thought gas driven vrv's were to boost the heating mode!
Let alone the ones who took me out for a meal and asked if we had steak in the uk!
any way, it's only "friendly fire", as i say "i like to discuss"

cheers

eggs

[shogun7]

I think I found a solution to Marc’s problems it’s called ***** lock box it’s a lockable box which may be positioned around the gauge ports on the refrigerant lines of an air conditioning system, then closed and locked, thereby preventing him access to the ports and bleed off of refrigerant in order to inhale the escaping refrigerant gas for the “high” he receives from sniffing the gas and posting that nonsense about what Teddy said in a fit of weakness

[shogun7]

[QUOTE=eggs]i'm sorry to tar all these men with the same brush, but have they heared of vrv, vrf and inverters yet? the last ones i spoke to thought gas driven vrv's were to boost the heating mode!
Let alone the ones who took me out for a meal and asked if we had steak in the uk!
any way, it's only "friendly fire", as i say "i like to discuss"

cheers

eggs[/QUOTE)
By the way eggs who came up with the concept of VRF an Englishman? or maybe a ....

U.S. Patent 6,220,566: Increment-ally positionable ball valve.

Inventor: Kent Alan Miller (Hendersonville, TN).

Applicant: Mueller Industries, Inc. (Memphis, TN).

An incrementally positionable ball valve is described for use in the fluid circuit of a refrigeration or air conditioning system which can be remotely controlled by a low-amperage control signal.

The ball valve uses the pressurized refrigerant from the fluid circuit in which it is installed as the primary power medium to actuate the valve. A sensor provides feedback to a controller relating to the incremental position of the valve. It then controls the operation of the valve in accordance with predetermined parameters.

In another version, the ball valve incorporates locator detents so that its incremental position can be determined by an operator manually controlling the valve. In still another aspect, a restrictor is provided for varying the flow capacity of the valve.
This concept hs been around many years in Trane unloader mechanisms.

[eggs]

so you got an encyclopedia for christmas!
lets see you get an uncensored newspaper, or an un-censored news program.
chances are you got that info from an american author.
your country is so big, and so self sufficient, you don't need to know the truth, only what your government says you need to know.
freedom of speach, ha ha ha.

cheers eggs

[shogun7]

Marc I notice the font is smaller is that because of what I said? Oh, sorry for your confusion it has nothing to do with VRF I just wanted to express my AMERICAN OPINION on what we in the home of brave think about your ingrateful senseless rantings besides when I'm feeling down and I need a pick me up I can always count on you for a good laugh

[shogun7]

so you got an encyclopedia for christmas!
lets see you get an uncensored newspaper, or an un-censored news program.
chances are you got that info from an american author.
your country is so big, and so self sufficient, you don't need to know the truth, only what your government says you need to know.
freedom of speach, ha ha ha.

cheers eggs

No Eggs your wrong agan Ignorance is bliss isn't It? Boy for a man with an IQ of 148 you dont give me much credit

[eggs]

depends whether you are enlightened, looking in on ignorance
or
ignorant, wondering about enlightment.

how can any man in the land of the free be "feeling down"
pick yourself up, you are in the land of opportunity.

cheers

eggs

[shogun7]

depends whether you are enlightened, looking in on ignorance
or
ignorant, wondering about enlightment.

how can any man in the land of the free be "feeling down"
pick yourself up, you are in the land of opportunity.

cheers

eggs

Well OK then I feel better already!!! Thaks Eggs

[shogun7]

Senseless and unatteched ramblings...

I think I prefer it when you copy paste from other peoples thoughts.

LOL As when you "LIFT" your stuff Come now in what branch of Refrigeration have you been the original author of a peer reviewd paper in some concept of heretofor unknown theory. I haven't read any published papers with your name on them?

[RogGoetsch]

Now kids, play nice. Puerile behavior is unbecoming in grown men.

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." --Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Beautiful, Marc.

I had really grown fond of our Bill of Rights. I'm gonna miss 'em.

I guess it's normal for a country to swerve right when it's attacked, but I think we're just slow learners.

This site says it all IMHO: www.sorryeverybody.com

Rog

[frank]

By the way eggs who came up with the concept of VRF an Englishman? or maybe a ....

Hi Shogun

VRF or variable refrigerant flow is a term that has to be used by all companies other than Daikin, the inventor of Variable refrigerant volume (VRV).

This is a different concept to the one you refer to

[Brian_UK]

I am aware of your Daikin connection Frank but could you tell me how they manage to change the volume of the refrigerant charge within a fixed size evironment?

That is something I could not get fully explained, cheers.

[frank]

Here's a quote from the source of VRV

VRF (Variable Refrigerant Flow): A direct expansion, modular central air conditioning system providing heating and cooling. Operates on the principle of varying the flow of refrigerant to a room terminal unit to achieve desired temperature.

VRV (Variable Refrigerant Volume): Trade mark for Daikin VRF systems:

[frank]

Hi Brian

To try to explain how a VRV (VRF) system works would take quite a long time. Basically the refrigerant circuit is metered at each indoor unit and the outdoor unit ramps up and down depending on the suction pressure.

In the heat recovery mode (3 pipe system) the evaporator/condenser parts of the system move around to suit the load. this might seem a strange statement but imagine that 50% of the indoor units want heating and 50% want cooling - in this position, the outdoor condenser does nothing as the balance point is reached by the indoor units.

At this point, the compressors run to provide circulation and hot gas which is directed to the indoor units wanting heating. The liquid produced from these indoor units is directed to the indoor units wanting cooling which is then returned to the outdoor unit.

Any variation from the indoor balance point is taken up by the outdoor condenser/evaporator.

I'll try to find a more graphic description on the net and post a link.

[shogun7]

As I said, I prefer it when you're copying and pasting. You still come across as the idiot you are except that way it's not in everyones face.

LOL and you dunce boy are so up "lifting"

[shogun7]

Hi Brian

To try to explain how a VRV (VRF) system works would take quite a long time. Basically the refrigerant circuit is metered at each indoor unit and the outdoor unit ramps up and down depending on the suction pressure.

In the heat recovery mode (3 pipe system) the evaporator/condenser parts of the system move around to suit the load. this might seem a strange statement but imagine that 50% of the indoor units want heating and 50% want cooling - in this position, the outdoor condenser does nothing as the balance point is reached by the indoor units.

At this point, the compressors run to provide circulation and hot gas which is directed to the indoor units wanting heating. The liquid produced from these indoor units is directed to the indoor units wanting cooling which is then returned to the outdoor unit.

Any variation from the indoor balance point is taken up by the outdoor condenser/evaporator.

I'll try to find a more graphic description on the net and post a link.

Frank ths reminds me of a muti flow heat pump that is a system that has more then one reversng valve...what?

[shogun7]

As Frank said Refrigerant systems that vary flow and volume (VRF/V) are basically large-capacity versions of ductless multisplit air-conditioning or heat pump systems. In contrast to conventional HVAC systems, they circulate refrigerant directly to multiple evaporator units, rather than using water (in chillers) or air (in ducted DX systems) to achieve heat transfer to the conditioned space.There are some drawbacks to this type of system as in the case of maintaining the long refrigerant lines. Many contractors believe that refrigerant leaks are hard to find and cumbersome to repair, also they are perceived as increasing liability exposure because of their large system refrigerant volume and lines in occupied spaces. Some of the larger systems may have as many as sixteen evaporators connected to one large condensing unit and as many as four VFD compressors