Ice Build up??

[wackiejackie88]

Hey People,

I'm not a refrigeration tech but a handy bakery owner who can't find a tech who cares.

I have a Traulsen 3 door freezer that has been remoted. I have had a problem with ice building up and hitting the blower blades. The first time i had this i found out the tech had left the evaporator hatch cover open. I insulated and bolted that down, changed bad gasket on doors, etc.

Now this problem came back, i have tried everything to try the problem and picked the brains of every tech at the traulsen company theyre all baffled. I found that the fan delay time had change from being 7 minutes last year to being about 25 minutes. Traulsen tells me normal time is between 1-8 minutes. I figured it was cheap enough to change so i did. Its about 5 min delay now.

Still making ice. The build up occurs in the bottom corners of the evaporator box. The coil has no ice on it at all. The ice builds up in the corners by the fan and the corners of the return side.

I alos recently started having a problem with the copper line freezing up and the freezer stopping. I had a tech come and he just did what i did before and re-insulated the evaoporator box cover at $99 a hour. Still building up ice too it comes out of the return air side pusing down the duct. It builds up fast too.

Any ideas? i figure this is the best place to find the answer.

Thanks everyone!

[Magoo]

Hi.
Not familiar with your equipment as I live on the other side of planet. But if coil is icing up too quickly and hitting or jamming fan blades, then several things could be happening. Too much moisture ingress from doors open, evaporator temp versu air on temp too great, possible the expansion devise fitted is out of whack since the compressor unit was remoted, moisture in system partially blocking drier, pressure drop what ever in liquid line, liquid line too small reduces feed rate to coil so low evap pressure and stupid frost/ snow build in low air flow areas.
Get a Refrigeration technician that is skilled to analyse fault. There has got to be one some where in NYC
Hope this helps a little bit. Very frustrating I would imagine.
magoo

[Gary]

Also check for blocked drain. The water from defrost may be re-freezing.

[wackiejackie88]

Thanks a lot for all the advice Magoo and Gary.

Even if i defort this freezer put it on without opening the door it will still build ice. I changed all the gaskets too have a great seal.

How would one adjust the evaporator temp? Would that be the defrost cycles? I have them set to the manufacturers specs 6 cycles at 22minuts each. The coil is clean.

From what the last tech tells me is this is not a mechanical problem...this is whats so frustrating. The freezer holds temp beautiful.

The manufacturer advised me to have my tech put on a thermostat where you can set the temperature. So it is set to 0 degrees.

As for the blocked drains i have tried that it flows like a river. I thought that maybe hot air was being sucked in from where the condensate drains in the basement so i put a p-trap in the basement. Than i said maybe its so hot in the basement that the moistur in the trap evapoartes up the pip so now i put a p-trap upstairs too. A tech at traulsen also told me to block off the drain hole with a piece of tape and just leave enough room for the water to flow.

I wish i had a picture to show you guys how the ice builds up...it looks liek warm air is being thrown into the corners. Pictures this: looking down into the evaporater box its 3 feet wide but there is only a 2 foot opening centered in that three feet. The 6 inches to the left and right is where the ice builds up. Picture the same thing on the supply side.

I was thinking could there be air just rolling around there in the corners? can this happen? i was thinking about putting a piece of sheet metal from the edge of the opening to the wall of the box (the 6 inches) at angle. I feel as if the angled piece of sheet metal would direct the ari flow and not make it catch in those corners. What do you guys think of this? Could this help or am i completely wrong??

Thanks again for all the help. Can you recommend any books for beginners? I need to learn to do this stuff without calling someone....my usual tech hasnt answered my calls in weeks.

[Gary]

Does your defrost timer have a terminal marked "X"?

[Gary]

Thanks again for all the help. Can you recommend any books for beginners? I need to learn to do this stuff without calling someone....my usual tech hasnt answered my calls in weeks.

You might want to start here:

http://www.refrigeration-engineer.co...ad.php?t=19701

And of course, I would recommend my books.

http://prostores1.carrierzone.com/se...com/StoreFront

[lowcool]

if its an electronic controller the coil probe may be out of whack as generally probes are not located towards the end of coils
gotta go mums b/day cheers

[mad fridgie]

If I understand correctly the coil and return bends are frost free, it is the panels that are freezing up. If so;
Your problem is that your defrost is to long. You are producing steam which condensing then freezing on the cold panels. Need to sort out defrost termination.
I do not know the specific of your system.
If you have termination fitted, and it seems to be working correctly, you may have a faulty defrost heater, which is causing the other heaters to become excessively hot causing more steam.

[lana]

Hi there,

Is there any tray heater? If so, make sure it works.
If you have a ice build up then there is most definitely defrost problem.
Defrost time is short, blocked drain, faulty defrost elements.
I had this experience in one cold room :
The drain was fine when checked, after two defrosts it would become completely blocked. It made me so mad then I changed the drain heating elements. Everybody's happy .

Check defrost and put a check valve at the end of the drain. Place it outside the room.

Cheers

[wackiejackie88]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the help....i really appreciate this!

Gary, There is a terminal marked X and there is a wire connected to it.

Lowcool, I dont think it has anything electronic. I never seen anything on the ends of the coil.

Mad Fridgie, correct there is no ice build up on the coil, the drain pan, or the drain pipe. It just builds ice in the evaporator box on top. The ice builds up in the lower corners of the box where the return and supply air comes from.

I thought i had a deforst termination switch but the tech who came on friday said i dont. Should i put one in and is it easy enough to do myself (im very handy) ? Correct me if im wrong...the termination switch can shut off the defrost cycle early if it melts away all the ice and gets to hot right?

I think last year when i sloved the problem there was a steam problem. It was set to 45 min 4 times a day. The company told me to do 6 at 25 min. Should i make it 4 at 25.....the evaporator is always clear not a drop of ice on it.

Lana, there is no drain pan heater, but its not accumulating is in the pan anyway. What is a check valve?

Thanks again people!!

-Jack

[Gary]

Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the help....i really appreciate this!

Gary, There is a terminal marked X and there is a wire connected to it.


I thought i had a defrost termination switch but the tech who came on friday said i dont. Should i put one in and is it easy enough to do myself (im very handy) ? Correct me if im wrong...the termination switch can shut off the defrost cycle early if it melts away all the ice and gets to hot right?

That wire on the X terminal leads to the defrost termination switch. The defrost must be terminated by the switch before the time period is over. The time termination is a backup in case the termination switch fails.

If the defrost terminates on duration rather than the termination switch, then the duration is not long enough or the termination switch has failed. Lengthen the time period and see if the defrost terminates before the time runs out. If it does not the switch is not working.

[Gary]

That wire on the X terminal leads to the defrost termination switch. The defrost must be terminated by the switch before the time period is over. The time termination is a backup in case the termination switch fails.

If the defrost terminates on duration rather than the termination switch, then the duration is not long enough or the termination switch has failed. Lengthen the time period and see if the defrost terminates before the time runs out. If it does not the switch is not working.

Ooops... I just checked through some defrost timer diagrams and it appears that I was mistaken. The termination switch appears to be on an unmarked terminal, not the X terminal.

If you can give me the timer make and model number I can locate the correct diagram.

[mad fridgie]

Hi Jack, yes certainally need the defrost termination. Normally I would say no to fitting it yourself. (We are in business as well) but in your case because of the problems you have had, then yes can be done by you.
As Gary has requested give him the make and model number of the timer, he then point you in the right direction as far as the specifics. ( he has plenty of experience with products in the USA)
I think this should sort out your problems!
Mad

[Sledge]

If the problem was with the mechanics of the fridge, you would have issues with the fridge operation. The temperature would not be correct. The coil would be freezing up, etc.
If the defrost was too long, you would have high temperature issues, including frozen water droplets on the ceiling of the fridge where the steam would condense. If the defrost was too short, or not frequent enough you would have a coil that was frozen. If the fan was starting too soon (while coil was above freezing) there would be ice sprayed all over.

It sounds too me like your issue is with water not draining completely during defrost and that water freezing.
This could be caused by absence of, or failure of the drain pan heater.
If the drain pan heater is working then I would bet that someone has taken off the drain pan and flattened it (put something heavy on it) It should be shaped so that it drains.
If the drain pan heater is present and working, and the pan is not flattened I would change the wiring to the drain pan heater, so that it is on all the time; same as the drain pipe heater.

[wackiejackie88]

Gary, just looked at my freezer. It's made by Paragon Electric. The model is the 8141-00 D-Frost O Matic. There is one wire in terminal 3 that's not hooked up. There is a last wire there...just not connected in the deforst timer.

Sledge, thanks for the checklist. The freezer holds temp. Now line is freezeing up its the fatter line which im told is the return. You can see it covered in frost when i go down to my basement. I shut it down for 2 hours then everything works well for a few days. Then i called a tech to come fix it he says the ice build up is causing a problem...i think he was trying to say the freezer was not breathing in a way becasue all the ice was stopping up the air flow.

I did have frozen water droplets that would later turn to iceicles when the fan delay was broken coming out of the return air side.

There is no ice at all on the coil. The drain pan works fine....ive stuck an inspection mirror up there to see and everything was clear.

There is no heater in the pan. Also, the pan is pitched well. My usual tech even had a bigger pan made and it drains perfect and has a good pitch to it. Also, no heater in the drain pipe.

If the condensate was somehow overflowing out of the pan wold it make it to these four corners of the box?

I just looked up photos of a deforst termination switch...i see it looks like the fan delay. Is it the same thing?????? The fan delay i bought was the orignal part from the manufacturer. It has two wires (same color). I replaced it same way it was before.

Thanks again people!

[mad fridgie]

It sounds like your fan delay is a Klixon (1" diameter 3/4" high 2 wires coing of) and fitted to one of your return bends. Agan without knowing the specifics,you can get a defrost termination klixon of a "similar" style, They have different set points.
Normally there are 2 one which opens on rise (generally used directly in series with the element) or one which closes on rise which trips the internal solenoid in side the time clock (true defrost termination)

[Sledge]

The fat line (suction line) will be cold, below freezing. It will frost up when it gets below freezing. If you have humidty problems in freezer, it will frost excessively on all cold surfaces.

Is it possible that there was a pan heater that was removed?

You say that there has been a new drain pan made... if you look at the old pan, sometimes they are built with a heater attached to the bottom of the pan, either on the inside, or on the outside. is it missing or failed?

I have seen it where the drain pan heater has been missing and heating cable has been placed in drain pan to keep the pan warm enough that the defrost will drain without freezing

[Gary]

Does it look something like this?

http://www.defrostimer.com/images/wi...ams/6141-0.jpg

[wackiejackie88]

Thanks for the replies.

Gary the timer looks similar.The on i have is made by Paragon Electric. The model is the 8141-00 D-Frost-O Matic.

Mad fridgie, the switch came directly form the manufacturer. Yes, its is attatched to one of the lines. Is it the wrong part??

Sledge, there is no heater under or in the pan. I know when we bought the freezer it was self-contained i believe t came with the drain pan heater. Yes, it was removed. Its not building any ice in that pan though.

Thanks again people!

[Gary]

Thanks for the replies.

Gary the timer looks similar.The on i have is made by Paragon Electric. The model is the 8141-00 D-Frost-O Matic.

The one is the picture is also a Paragon. It is the newer replacement for your model. The connections should be the same.

[Gary]

The termination switch looks just like the fan switch, but has the opposite action.

The fan switch closes when the coil temperature drops.

The termination switch closes when the coil temperature rises.

Where does the disconnected wire go to?

[mad fridgie]

Hi the fan delay if working is the right part, termination one looks similar (but not the same) The one I have seen have different colored dots onto indicate which one it is. You need a second one for termination. I will leave to Gary he will know the normal way of doing things in the USA
Now a days I use electronic controllers. In the olden days I used a thermostat with a remote sensing bulb, whic I inserted directy into the evap coil block

[Gary]

I haven't been able to find a Traulsen wiring diagram online.

[lana]

Hi there,

Check valve is a non-return valve. It opens only to one direction and closes to the other direction. This must be placed at the end of the drain line so only water passes through and air can not be sucked in.

Have a look at the attached picture. I marked some points with red line.
Do you have ice build up in these positions?

Cheers

[wackiejackie88]

Hello again everyone,

Sorry i havent replied sooner.

Gary, terminal 3 has no wire connected to it. What should go there?

Also, i have never seen another switch that looks like the fan delay....maybe this is the cause to all our troubles?

I replaced a therm-o-matic switch model no. 14t31. I'm calling the company to make sure that was a fan delay. From what i see online it is shown as a fan delay. I replaced this with an original Traulsen fan delay switch.

Thanks again for the help people.

-Jack

[wackiejackie88]

I meant to say Therm-O-Disc

[Gary]

It's turning on the fan therefore it's a fan switch.

I don't suppose you have a wiring diagram on the unit you could post?

[Gary]

You said there was a disconnected wire. Where does that wire lead to?

[mad fridgie]

You should have 2
one for fan delay
and one for defrost termination

[Gary]

I suspect that this system had a 3-wire combination fan/termination switch at one time which was replaced with the 2-wire fan switch.

[mad fridgie]

I suspect that this system had a 3-wire combination fan/termination switch at one time which was replaced with the 2-wire fan switch.

Now that makes a lot of sense (I have not seen a 3 wire klixion) I used a thermostat with remote bulb, but in the way you decribed.

[Gary]

This is the closest I could find to the right diagram:

http://www.supco.com/images/pdfs/Com...20Controls.pdf

The relevant diagram is at the bottom left. It shows how to wire a F/T switch (SPDT Thermostat).

[Gary]

Let's imagine just for a moment that when they remoted the unit they were too lazy to run that extra wire... so they replaced the 3-wire F/T switch with a 2-wire fan switch.

I know... it's hard to imagine they would do that, right?

Or maybe it happened even earlier... somewhere in the past the 3-wire burnt out and all the service tech had on his truck at the time was a 2-wire.

Again... hard to imagine.

[Gary]

Now that makes a lot of sense (I have not seen a 3 wire klixion) I used a thermostat with remote bulb, but in the way you decribed.

3-wire klixons are common over here... but yes, I can remember using remote bulb thermostats before there were klixons.

[mad fridgie]

3-wire klixons are common over here... but yes, I can remember using remote bulb thermostats before there were klixons.

Thats the wonder of this industry, never to old to learn

[Sledge]

I am not understanding thread.

If the freezer is freezing, defrost is functioning so that coil is clear of ice buildup, there is not any signs of defrost running too long or the fan starting too soon after defrost...

what wiring issue would cause a build up of frost in the corners of the evap?

[mad fridgie]

I am not understanding thread.

If the freezer is freezing, defrost is functioning so that coil is clear of ice buildup, there is not any signs of defrost running too long or the fan starting too soon after defrost...

what wiring issue would cause a build up of frost in the corners of the evap?

The signs are that the defrost is running to long!, causing steam! No defrost termination, hence the wiring issues

[Gary]

The evap is contained in a plenum on top of the cabinet. If the defrost runs too long a cloud of steam forms in the plenum, condensing on any and all cold surfaces, including the fan blade which is also in the plenum.

The Paragon 8141-00 has a termination solenoid (Z-shaped symbol in the diagram). It is designed to be used with a termination switch.

As soon as the coil is clear, the switch warms up and terminates the defrost cycle. As soon as the coil re-freezes the switch starts the fan. There is no under or over defrosting... and no steam cloud.

[wackiejackie88]

Hey people,

After all the talk of the termination switches I called Traulsen speant about 45 min on the phone with a tech he faxed me a diagram. We started talking about the wiring. I think the problems is everyone that touched this freezer had no idea what they were doing.

We have the leads set up for a termination switch....but i've never seen the termination switch itself. The factory tech tells me he thinks the coil is getting too hot. So could all this be from a tiny $40 part??????? Could this be the cause of all this heartache?

Gary, it was the purple wire that was not hooked up. But something is off because terminal #3 is free on the timer.

I have a better diagram he faxed me today its clearer...i will try to get him to email it.

Thanks again for all the advice people. I wish i could find tech this competent in nyc. All the ones here just want to play around for a $100 an hour. Its aggravating i dont mind paying if the job is done right....but the last guy i had basically replaced a gasket for 5 hours and left me right where i was before he came.

-Jack

[Gary]

Terminals 2 and 3 are joined together, so the black wire could be connected to either. It wouldn't matter which.

[Gary]

We have the leads set up for a termination switch....but i've never seen the termination switch itself. The factory tech tells me he thinks the coil is getting too hot. So could all this be from a tiny $40 part??????? Could this be the cause of all this heartache?

The devil is in the details.

[Magoo]

Hello Jack.
By now you are totally confused, hell I will come over and sort it out for free, never been to NYC, you pick up the airfares and we have a deal.
And mad fridgie you are not coming because you live in Otago and hang low wall heat pumps. I lived there once and summer happened on a Tuesday so missed it and it snowed on Christmas day.

[mad fridgie]

Hello Jack.
By now you are totally confused, hell I will come over and sort it out for free, never been to NYC, you pick up the airfares and we have a deal.
And mad fridgie you are not coming because you live in Otago and hang low wall heat pumps. I lived there once and summer happened on a Tuesday so missed it and it snowed on Christmas day.

Hey Magoo, I am coming, I will need to hold an old buggers hand, and because i live in Christchurch, well nearly!

[wackiejackie88]

Gary, i see how 2 and 3 are connected. Now the purple wire is hooked up to the termination swtich from what i see on the diagram. I just have one question it supposed to go to the X terminal on the timer as well?

Tempting offer Magoo

Thanks
Jack

[Gary]

Gary, i see how 2 and 3 are connected. Now the purple wire is hooked up to the termination swtich from what i see on the diagram. I just have one question it supposed to go to the X terminal on the timer as well?

Yes... the termination switch connects to the X terminal and the unmarked terminal.

[wackiejackie88]

Hey Gray,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Had a little typo in my last post. I meant to say the purple wire is not hooked up. So now i know it goes to the X terminal. How can it connect to both the unmarked terminal and the X....the unmarked terminal position is just an empty hole on my timer.

Thanks for all the help!

[Gary]

Hey Gray,

Thanks for the quick reply.

Had a little typo in my last post. I meant to say the purple wire is not hooked up. So now i know it goes to the X terminal. How can it connect to both the unmarked terminal and the X....the unmarked terminal position is just an empty hole on my timer.

Thanks for all the help!

No... the purple wire must go to the termination solenoid (unmarked terminal), not the X terminal.

Now I'm wondering if the termination solenoid is missing?

Are you sure that the model on the timer (not the timer box) is 8141-00?

[wackiejackie88]

Gary, just looked at it....on the timer it says model 8041-00 but i looks at the paper in the door of the timer. So now we know its 8041-00

There is a solenoid on this unit....i just looked at it and it's wired in with the thermostat my tech put in. I had him put that because traulsen tells me it should have one....its set around 0 degrees. Its made by white rogers.

[Gary]

Gary, just looked at it....on the timer it says model 8041-00 but i looks at the paper in the door of the timer. So now we know its 8041-00

There is a solenoid on this unit....i just looked at it and it's wired in with the thermostat my tech put in. I had him put that because traulsen tells me it should have one....its set around 0 degrees. Its made by white rogers.

Now you are confusing me. It sounds like you had your service tech add a liquid line solenoid. A liquid line solenoid is not the same thing as a defrost termination solenoid. What kind of solenoid did you have him add?

I would get a Paragon 8141-00 defrost timer and a Traulsen termination switch and wire it all exactly like it is on the wiring diagram.

It would be well worth doing this right by returning it to the original design.

[Gary]

Now you are confusing me. It sounds like you had your service tech add a liquid line solenoid. A liquid line solenoid is not the same thing as a defrost termination solenoid. What kind of solenoid did you have him add?

I would get a Paragon 8141-00 defrost timer and a Traulsen termination switch and wire it all exactly like it is on the wiring diagram.

It would be well worth doing this right by returning it to the original design.

Just so we are clear on this:

The defrost termination solenoid is built into the defrost timer. It is part of the timer. When you look at the terminal board on the timer, the solenoid is hidden behind that terminal board. It is not a separate part that can be added on. You need to get the right defrost timer, which comes with the termination solenoid built into it.