Units WITHOUT condensers

[Latte]

Hi all,

Over the last couple of weeks i have come accross a few units WITHOUT visible condensers on the outside (Gram mostly).

Is there a condenser inside that you can see or what am i missing

Regards

Raymond

[Mark]

Hi Ray,How you doing?

Is there a remote condenser Air/water cooled or maybe a skinned condenser Ie in the walls of the cabinet.
Whats the model number?.

Best regards Mark

[Latte]

Hi Mark,
units in question today were Gram F150gb single door freezer & a Gram K190 singlr door chiller.

Discharge pipes on both units go straight into the body, but wasn't interested enough at the time to start taking all the back panels off.

Thought it was wierd but then again i was at the riverside leisure complex in Norwich so what else should i expect

Regards

Raymond

[Mark]

Ray, you wouldnt need to take the side cover off just feel the side of the cabinet and see if its warm .

Mark

[Peter_1]

Condensor tubes are foamed in the walls just near the outher plate and dissipate their heat to the surrounding. If you feel on the steel outher walls, they wil be warm and on some places hot.

[Latte]

Hi Thanks fo the replies,
What a stupid idea these are

They are sold as under counter units and sold for use in kitchens. With an ambient of 30 degree's + and no airflow around them where they are wedged in, it's no wonder they don't work very well

Regards

Raymond

[Mark]

If i recall ,Gram added a (guarded) tangental type motor,fitted on the back to aid condensing on some of there cabinets....... or was it Derby or something....Still,in that application.

[bernard]

Hi I,ve had trouble with the doors dropping,just enough to stop them sealing properly.The staff use them to aid them back on there feet,the hinges are not strong enough.I agree they are no good for kitchens they work flat out.

Regards bernard

[Latte]

Hi Mark,
Yes, these units have that fan but when the units are in a recess under a counter with no airspace then whats the point.

Regards

Fatboy

[Mark]

If i recall ,Gram added a (guarded) tangental type motor,fitted on the back to aid condensing on some of there cabinets....... or was it Derby or something....Still,in that application.

Re-read the post.

[Abe]

Raymond

I agree with you entirely!!!
It is a STUPID design, enclosing the condenser tubes inside the foam

A lot of Gram fridges have a small tangental motor stuck just below the compressor to keep it cool. These by the way have external condensers, ( I think)

A lot of commercial kitchens buy these type of fridges, considering the high temps in kitchens, and constant door openings..........I cringe!!

I would never sell one of these units for a catering requirement

And yes...........I am back in lovely cool refreshing England...with flowers still in bloom and grass so rich and green.........Im tempted to go munch some!!!!!

Abe

[benncool]

The reason you find the condensers in these small freezers buried in the insulation is to keep the cabients from sweating in a humid enviroment.

In my residential refrigeration days back in the '60s they would put electric heaters in some models along the door moulons to keep them from sweating.

Mark Fiddy that picture of your little boy is adorable. I just celebrated the 3rd anniversary of my 20th birithday but it seems like only yesterday that my boys were that age.

The expression on his face seems to be saying," Daddy why did they put the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car?"

[RogGoetsch]

It is a STUPID design, enclosing the condenser tubes inside the foam

Abe

Abe,

Is it still stupid if it works really well in some applications? If the compressor sees the same condensing pressure, what does it matter how the heat is rejected?

I don't see how they can be very efficient, with the cooling coil and the condenser coils separated by a couple of inches of foam, but how efficient are all the units operating with plugged condensers because no one ever looks at them?

The condensing surface is very large and they require the least service of any units. No fan-forced coils to get dirty, just a fan motor to cool the compressor only, so that needs oil every couple of years, but that's it.

Kelvinator, a quality brand, made ice cream dipping cabinets with the condenser in the walls. I have customers with these units which have run trouble-free for 30 years! They have even covered the fronts with wood veneer and the units don't seem to care!

Gram is selling thousands of very small units of the same design over here now. Every convenience store has one or two.

So what are you mad about, really?

Rog

[chemi-cool]

Hi guys.

I have to agree with Rog.

We tend to give marks to manufacturers on their products but do we have the right to do so?

If a product is bad with many problems, it will not sell!

The "condenser less" freezer is an old trick and manufactures around the world in many versions and they are just fine.
Of course, if there is a leak inside the body, its gone but it hardly ever happened.

Chemi

[Latte]

Hi Guys,

I think the problem a lot of the time is misapplication of equipment. How may times have we been called to jobs and it's external factors causing units not to work.

1) Shops with 15 integrals and no a/c
2) Kitchens with a 30 degree + ambient
3) Bars with a long line of integral bottle coolers in a recess under the counter with no air space at the back.

I will look at the RAC2005 and see what the manufactures say are the operating conditions (if any) of their fridges.
Clearly these units with the inbuilt condenser are useless in a kitchen enviroment. i know i moan about greasy condensers but at least you can clean them out with grease gobbler and get them working ok'ish.

Regards

Fatboy

[Abe]

So what are you mad about, really?

Whos mad ???

I said it was stupid.................as Fatboy says........there is a tendency to put these units into commercial kitchens.

15 years ago they worked just fine..............After global warming............we have a whole new scenario here.

Im referring to the UK..........I cant speak for your neck of the woods.

Temperatures are much higher here now then was the case, hence the necessity for greater dissipation of heat. With coil embeddded in cabinet, not very practical now.

And yes, you " DO " get leaks in the condenser coils, I have experienced it several times.

I prefer external coils, if others prefer internal, great........Ill award you the " sane" medal for your preference

[Abe]

And who says Manufacturers are the "be all" and " it" who cant get it wrong

Ive seen many ****ty products in my time, which have sold in the market place successfully.

Because when it came to servicing the units, the poor tech had to crane his neck, stretch his limbs, and poke fiddle fart about, to get a part changed

We still get units from reputable manufacturers without charging stubbs fitted............

In this age of reclaim , I ask ???????

[RogGoetsch]

And who says Manufacturers are the "be all" and " it" who cant get it wrong

Ive seen many ****ty products in my time, which have sold in the market place successfully.

Because when it came to servicing the units, the poor tech had to crane his neck, stretch his limbs, and poke fiddle fart about, to get a part changed

We still get units from reputable manufacturers without charging stubbs fitted............

In this age of reclaim , I ask ???????

No disagreement about any of this. It's frustrating as hell to work on a unit that was designed without regard to servicing. But most designs are a trade-off between best practices and low price. Even my own, sometimes.

Halocarbon refrigerants were a worse idea from a refrigeration engineeering standpoint, but they were designed for safety, not efficiency. No more flooded evaporators, and oil return problems, metering problems, floodback problems, etc.

I just thought you were annoyed because you found the embedded coil units "stupid". It just makes the entire wall one huge fin. (Technically, "secondary heat transfer surface"). Kind of clever, actually. Just a design decision, with good and bad possibilities, like all designs.

Rog

[Peter_1]

if you don't use points in your sentences then they're very difficult to read especially for those not english spoken among us if you had read read the whole thread then you should have seen that they never said that it can work without a condensor they only said that they didn't saw a condensor those who said condensorless subscribed it between quotes """""""""""""""""""""""""""
those who posted are good techs have a look in their older posts verify yourself was this easy to read question mark
it's always easy to have critic this isn't alt.hvac at all had a look in your older posts (6) and all had the same negative undertone regarding to you avtar, you're kneeless and the grass need to be mowed sorry but that's my opinion

[Latte]

Thanks for the back up peter, am i short of a pair of x-ray specs in my tool kit, how else was i meant to see a condenser inside a unit that i have never worked on before.

Unlike some people who know everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, i do ask what may seem stupid questions to some of the more experienced engineers, but i am no too proud to ask for help is there is something i don't know.

Maybe one day too i will be perfect and move to aus

Regards

Fatboy !!!

[Peter_1]

LOL
Or stick you nose somewhere between like VALVE750. (long time not seen...)

[Abe]

u r all joking or cowboys or plane stupid how can a ref system work without a cond u must have failed physics u no change of state ect Domestic units have had condensers in the cab walls for 30 yrs that i know of . Makes me wonder if half these people should go near refs? Did they do real apprenticeships or those mail order courses?

so were cowboys or stupid huh????
As Peter1 says in his sig.................opening your mouth was possibly the worst thing you could have done...........

[Abe]

Unlike some people who know everything !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, i do ask what may seem stupid questions to some of the more experienced engineers, but i am no too proud to ask for help is there is something i don't know.

Maybe one day too i will be perfect and move to aus

Regards

Fatboy !!!

Long may you ask questions.............dont let a thick lensed spectacle boy ruffle your feathers when he should be mowing the grass instead...........

[rbartlett]

15 years ago they worked just fine..............After global warming............we have a whole new scenario here.

Im referring to the UK..........I cant speak for your neck of the woods.

Temperatures are much higher here now then was the case, hence the necessity for greater dissipation of heat. With coil embeddded in cabinet, not very practical now.

sorry abe can't let you get away with this nonsense

even the hadley data shows a 'rise' of less than one degree from the 'norm' -which in itself is a distorted figure..

the problem of 'global warming' is more of localised heating.

If you had said that 'England has a far denser population (not a far larger) due to urbanisation and hence the 'cities' seem to be far warmer than they used to be then I would have to agree


cheers

richard

[coolkev]

Sorry chaps. I am not a crim that was a bit low