R22 venting?!?

[jdunc2301]

Hey everyone,

Went to a large site today, at the site there are several refrig/ac companies with smaller contracts on different pieces of kit.
Whilst i was waiting for the maintenance guys i spotted another tech from a firm around my area, we got chatting. He explained he was just a maintenance bloke for the company, carrying out the service.
I had a look at the kit and noticed something strange, oh and he was brushing off the condensers while i was chatting to him.

Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.

Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.
R22 is working out quite cheap....
Really does annoy me considering i reclaimed 120g from a chiller this morning, the reckless twit may have vented 20x that amount.

Ggggrrrrr

Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!

[Brian_UK]

Report it to the site staff if nothing else.

Get him and his firm kicked off.

[Gary]

Report it to the site staff if nothing else.

Get him and his firm kicked off.

Why would anyone want to be an informer for the environmental nazis?... It just encourages the jack-booted thugs.

[Brian_UK]

Why would anyone want to be an informer for the environmental nazis?... It just encourages the jack-booted thugs.

That was the reason I suggested the site staff. They will not want unsafe practices being performed on their property and the threat of loss of earnings will often do more than the threat of legal action.

You seem to have an aversion to playing safe Gary or is it just not wanting to be caught out yourself?

I'm not one for bleating to the environmental nazis as I couldn't stand the paperwork but there are always other means available.

[Magoo]

I tend to agree with Gary, but would explain to the individual what he is doing to the enviroment, and suggest compressed air is cheaper as well. If they ignor reasonable advise then cut the ground from under them.
Mainly because we have the big ozone hole down here in NZ., and get fried in summer and all the skin cancer stuff added for free.

[lowcool]

i have used old bottles for compressed air for the same thing.
if your positive it was 22 make your own decision,then have a chat to the client about producing documentation that proves any contractor or representative is licensed to work on such equipment or with prescribed substances.hopefully they will catch on quickly given that it may not comply with their ohs&w policy that should be in place.
sounds like a job for multisync,just being humerous multi

[tbirdtbird]

Seems odd he would use R22 like this right in front of you. Could have had compressed air in it; maybe not a totally brilliant way to do it since it arouses suspicion. Ever notice the environmental police don't like to tell you that the biggest ozone holes/paths coincide with the major jet routes and that the biggest hole of all is punched in by the space shuttle. For that matter aviation fuel (dunno about jet fuel) still has lead in it??? How bad can all this stuff really be? The $4500 'clunker trade-in ' program here in the states totally discounts the enormous amount of energy required just to mint an entire brand new car. No one is looking at the *entire* energy balance sheet. No one.

[brian_chapin]

Off topic a bit, but...

...the biggest hole of all is punched in by the space shuttle.

Quoted from NASA:
Q. Is it true that launching the Space Shuttle creates a local ozone hole, and that the Space Shuttle releases more chlorine than all industrial uses worldwide?
A. No, that is not true. NASA has studied the effects of exhaust from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket motors on the ozone. In a 1990 report to Congress, NASA found that the chlorine released annually in the stratosphere (assuming launches of nine Shuttle missions and six Titan IVs -- which also have solid rocket motors -- per year) would be about 0.25 percent of the total amount of halocarbons released annually worldwide (0.725 kilotons by the Shuttle 300 kilotons from all sources).

The report concludes that Space Shuttle launches at the current rate pose no significant threat to the ozone layer and will have no lasting effect on the atmosphere. The exhaust plume from the Shuttle represents a trivial fraction of the atmosphere, and even if ozone destruction occurred within the initial plume, its global impact would be inconsequential.

Further, the corridor of exhaust gases spreads over a lateral extent of greater than 600 miles in a day, so no local "ozone hole" could occur above the launch site. Images taken by NASA's Total Ozone Mapping Spectrometer at various points following Shuttle launches show no measurable ozone decrease.

For that matter aviation fuel (dunno about jet fuel) still has lead in it???

Very little AVGas is burned compared to JP-5 (Jet fuel). While some AVGas (but not most by a long shot) still has lead in it, most of it does not. JP-5 is essentially Kerosene and there isn't a need for an anti-pinging compound in a turbine so no lead additive.

[multisync]

i have used old bottles for compressed air for the same thing.
if your positive it was 22 make your own decision,then have a chat to the client about producing documentation that proves any contractor or representative is licensed to work on such equipment or with prescribed substances.hopefully they will catch on quickly given that it may not comply with their ohs&w policy that should be in place.
sounds like a job for multisync,just being humerous multi

Let me get this straight you put compressed air on an old R22 bottle..oh...my...god.
I look forward to seeing you on the Darwin awards website some day soon.

It's clear that most are coming round to the fact that if we don't help our industry and the enviroment by self policing no one will. Sadly there is no excuse for illegally venting. Like speeding a lot do but if you get caught it's no use moaning 'poor me' about it.

If he had a bottle of R22 he should -by law- be in possession of a safe handling certficate. . If he hasn't then he is working illegally but if he has he is still working illegally by venting.

It's interesting that most of those coming here with horror stories are the young and most defending the bad practice are the old.
Hopefully the old fools here will one day learn that they aren't always right and perhaps they should ease back with their bodger 'git'r'done' approach and promote good practice.

Next time you are on site get a picture of him blowing out the condensers. Then send it to the local EHO authority or F-Gas support with the details.

Don't forget his poor work ways will reflect on the customer. The client may not know his contractors are operating in an illegal manner. Most facilities managers will be grateful if you highlight this because he will get in deep doo doo if their company is dragged into a court case with all the bad publicity it could generate.

[jdunc2301]

It's interesting that most of those coming here with horror stories are the young and most defending the bad practice are the old.
Hopefully the old fools here will one day learn that they aren't always right and perhaps they should ease back with their bodger 'git'r'done' approach and promote good practice.

The bloke i work for is very stuck in his ways. I think most guys like me who are fairly new to the industry (0-10yrs) have never known the industry with no rules and regs, plus i just like being as professional as possible.

Would I turn him in to anyone? Hell no. I hate thieves and dictators and refuse to become their accomplice.

I think the the argument comes down to a couple of things.....

If your happy to go out and buy all the reclaim equipment, good quality kit and hundreds of pounds worth of qualifications to work in the industry legally, and then follow bad practices and not help to enforce the law....no point in doing the qualifications and buying the kit. Is there??

Aslong as people get away with not reclaiming and venting and bad practices the industry will always be full of holes, meaning the majority of engineers who take their role seriously and invest in their career and take pride in their job will loose out big time by always being undercut on price.

Dont get me wrong i think reclaiming less than 300g of refrigerant is the biggest pain in the arse, but we all gotta do it

[Gary]

Aslong as people get away with not reclaiming and venting and bad practices the industry will always be full of holes, meaning the majority of engineers who take their role seriously and invest in their career and take pride in their job will loose out big time by always being undercut on price.

Being robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures puts you at a disadvantage, so your solution is that everyone should be robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures?... and you recommend helping the thieves/dictators?

[multisync]

Being robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures puts you at a disadvantage, so your solution is that everyone should be robbed and forced to follow unnecessary procedures?... and you recommend helping the thieves/dictators?

Getting properly trained and licensed is far better than buying some dodgy book of the internet and thinking you are a fridge man. (it is also the law in the UK- so get over it...)

Basically you condone those who break the law, champion 'bodgers' against skilled engineers, encourage venting of refrigerant and think the whole world is a conspiracy with all this talk of Nazi's and dictators paranoid old hippie nonsense....

Like it or not the law in the UK states you must be registered to work and venting refrigerant is illegal. Don't come over here and tell us we are wrong. Look to your country and see the waste of natural resources with a wanton disregard towards the earth and it's future. (let alone the children of the world)



We had many many chances to self regulate but chose to ignore it because of old dinosaurs with their "You can't tell me nothing" approach

So -like seat belts etc - if the people won't voluntarily change then they will be forced by law. That's how it works, that's how it's always worked. The recent measures were taken because we wouldn't clean up our own act then we must accept the consequences of our reluctance.
(The beauty of the seat belt law was it was self regulating. IE those who refused ended up going through the windscreen thereby taking their stupidity with them.)

You may not agree with global warming, -so what nor do I- but I respect that we must accept the world is different and we must behave responsibly.

There are those here who say these laws don't protect lives, read about the ozone layer and skin cancer...

[Magoo]

Hi Lowcool,
I have also used old jugs for same purpose, friggen hopeless, so bought a luggable air compressor for the job.

[lowcool]

gday magoo
friggen useless i agree,as you say we can have one man portable jobs now.used to do the rounds with a fridgy/electrician in my young days around the yorkes peninsula and mid north.i used to have the honour of pressurising those 5 foot lpg cylinders to 120 psi (or whatever we could get out the old girl)for condenser cleans.

[Magoo]

Lowcool.
You worked up at Cape York., crokadily things etc.., snappy bytie things. Not for me. I like having a BBQ without people being snapped by the local wildlife. Jeeez who would live up there.

[lowcool]

sorry magoo
thats yorkes peninsula in south australia,the thing with a foot at the bottom if you have a map.havent done cape york yet.but there is plenty of big bitey things spread over the north end of oz,inland also.

love it up north now i feel sort of homesick but i am from sth oz

[Gary]

The only thing that's unsafe about venting R22 is getting caught.

If the guy wants to take his chances on getting caught, that's his choice. If he get's caught, he lost the gamble... too bad.

Would I turn him in to anyone? Hell no. I hate thieves and dictators and refuse to become their accomplice.

[Magoo]

Hi Lowcool.
I /we have been to most parts of OZ., me not to your neck of the woods. I am keen to catch up some time so long as you can assure that no snappy things are around your BBQ.
We are a bit spoilt here with nothing that whats to eat anyone, let alone snakes, spiders, ants with attitude or get tramped by big reds.
This will confuse the hell out of posters with what I am talking about.
magoo

[Gary]

Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. Been there done that.

The problem with the young is that they haven't been around long enough to recognize a scam when they see it.

The beauty in the fixing-a-future-problem scam is that by the time the evidence is in, the thieves are long gone... and a new set of thieves appear with a new set of future problems to be fixed, and a new group of young fools to fall for the scam.

The scam artists would like you to believe that old people are stuck in their ways and are afraid of change. Well... think about just how ludicrous and meaningless that statement is. Winning the lottery is change. A sharp stick in the eye is change. I don't know of anyone, young or old, who is afraid of winning the lottery. Only a young moron welcomes a sharp stick in the eye.

And then there is the "conspiracy nut" ploy. Those who play along with the scam stand to profit from it and those who oppose it are ridiculed as "conspiracy nuts", so a great many people play along with the scam and thus become accomplices. Is that a conspiracy? You tell me.

[multisync]

Old people know more about being young than young people know about being old. Been there done that.

The problem with the young is that they haven't been around long enough to recognize a scam when they see it.

The beauty in the fixing-a-future-problem scam is that by the time the evidence is in, the thieves are long gone... and a new set of thieves appear with a new set of future problems to be fixed, and a new group of young fools to fall for the scam.

The scam artists would like you to believe that old people are stuck in their ways and are afraid of change. Well... think about just how ludicrous and meaningless that statement is. Winning the lottery is change. A sharp stick in the eye is change. I don't know of anyone, young or old, who is afraid of winning the lottery. Only a young moron welcomes a sharp stick in the eye.

How patronising can you get ?

Still, there's no fool like an old fool and you are living proof of that ...

[Gary]

How patronising can you get ?

Still, there's no fool like an old fool and you are living proof of that ...

... says the young moron.

[Gary]

Most con games are based on the inherent dishonesty of the "mark". The mark turns over his money to the con artist in the belief that he has become an accomplice in the fleecing of a third party.

If/when the third party refuses to be fleeced, it is the mark who has been robbed.

The mark then blames the third party for their refusal to roll over and take it.

[multisync]

Most con games are based on the inherent dishonesty of the "mark". The mark turns over his money to the con artist in the belief that he has become an accomplice in the fleecing of a third party.

If/when the third party refuses to be fleeced, it is the mark who has been robbed.

The mark then blames the third party for their refusal to roll over and take it.

You're rambling again..but humour me

Do you believe ozone depletion is caused or aided by refrigerants ?

[Gary]

You're rambling again..but humour me

Do you believe ozone depletion is caused or aided by refrigerants ?

I don't know. Do you?

Show me the proof. Surely the CFC's have reached the ozone layer by now. There should be positive proof... or are people still pointing at the hole in the ozone... which may or may not have been there all along... or maybe enriching the politicians and their friends has prevented it from happening?

[multisync]

I don't know. Do you?

Show me the proof. Surely the CFC's have reached the ozone layer by now. There should be positive proof... or are people still pointing at the hole in the ozone... which may or may not have been there all along... or maybe enriching the politicians and their friends has prevented it from happening?

You don't know but by your reasoning we should carry on venting any way?

[Gary]

You don't know but by your reasoning we should carry on venting any way?

You don't know but by your reasoning we should give the politicians our money and inform on and severely punish people who vent refrigerants? The harm is theoretical and by any sane measure miniscule. The punishment is real and severe.

[Gary]

A few centuries back, Columbus (using the state of the art science of the day) told a group of natives that his God was angry and would turn day into night. Sure enough, there was a solar eclipse, the natives were converted and Columbus became king. Isn't science wonderful?

Did the natives cause the eclipse?

Could worshiping/obeying Columbus and/or his God have prevented it?

Seems doubtful.

[philfridge]

Anyway he had his steps out a brush, bottle of R22 and a hose attached to the bottle, no manifold just the hose.

Im just putting two and two together but it seems obvious that he was using the R22 to blow through the condensers.

Ggggrrrrr

Should really report it but theres no solid evidence im just going by what i saw!

This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

[Gary]

This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

That's almost beside the point. Even if it can be proven that the Earth is getting warmer that doesn't mean anything can be done about it or that enriching the politicians and their buddies is going to accomplish anything... aside from enriching the politicians and their buddies.

[tbirdtbird]

Well we sure have come a long way when we do not know for certain that any R22 was actually vented.
And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction. As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."
The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government. I think the mods should close this thread.

[multisync]

Well we sure have come a long way when we do not know for certain that any R22 was actually vented.

A bottle of R22 with a single hose on it, some clean condensers and some dirty condensers. Not proof as the OP suggests but beyond reasonable doubt??

And a government report was cited as proof that the shuttle does not punch holes in the ozone. Wow, there are people out there that would believe everything their government tells them. Like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

We all pick and choose what we believe and don't believe. I presume you choose not to believe that the Shuttle doesn't harm the ozone layer. Is that because you have hard evidence, or that you don't believe this government on anything?

As Gary eloquently said, "They can control my actions, but they can't control my mind. B*llsh*t is still b*llsh*t."

Next you'll be telling me that advertising doesn't work. Well if you believe that I have a bridge to sell...

The earth has gone through numerous hot-cold cycles throughout the ages. Period. We really cannot control that, and it will occur no matter what we do. Geology is the science that tells us this, not the government.

Again we all choose to believe what we choose to believe. (or are guided to believe?) However this thread isn't about GW, it's about illegal venting of refrigerant.

I think the mods should close this thread.

I don't. Just lets keep it on the original topic of illegal venting

[philfridge]

Even if it can be proven that the Earth is getting warmer that doesn't mean anything can be done about it

It cant over the last 18 years its got colder

[multisync]

This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

Which 'dictator' are you thinking of Phil can you name him/them?

[philfridge]

Which 'dictator' are you thinking of Phil can you name him/them?

Yes his name is Multisync

[multisync]

Yes his name is Multisync

Phil, I love you like like a brother but It's too easy to throw in silly comments like 'dictator' which is always emotive but in this instance utterly meaningless.

[multisync]

This was common practise when I was an apprentice, nobody worried twenty years ago about this. As far as global warming that's all nonsense, in fact the world is getting colder not hotter so seems as though we've been lied to again by the dictators.

No one 'worried' about drink driving or going head first through the windscreen. Laws changed and were enforced more vigorously. Now we all -usually- buckle up and few if any condone drink driving. The world changes and we must change with it.

Our trade is a ragtag bunch of the poorly trained and/or badly managed. Supermarkets piss all over their contractors bankrupting them almost on a whim. Why, because we drifted along completely unregulated a few blokes here and there 'getting by'

This law -if we choose- will allow us to gain some kudos we can become recognised as a skilled trade not just an add on as seen on the side of a van:

"security, cameras, alarms- oh and air conditioning"
"Electrical installations, domestic, commercial- oh and air conditioning"
"heating, plumbing, gaswork- oh and air conditioning"

[Gary]

Not so long ago, people were tortured and burnt at the stake based on the theory that this would save their immortal souls. That's right, it was for their own good.

The politicians are the same. The informants are the same. The punishments are less severe... so far. The only thing that has changed is the religion. The new religion is environmentalism.

What gives you the right to force your beliefs on others? What gives you the right to punish others based on your unproven theories? Just who the hell do you think you are?

[thebigcheese]

is it just me or does anyone else do it by the book just because they cant get away with doing it wrong. the only reason id tout so to speak on someone venting r22 is because i have to reclaim it.

[multisync]

is it just me or does anyone else do it by the book just because they cant get away with doing it wrong.

Same with murder theft and everyother crime. This is what civilisation is based on.

the only reason id tout so to speak on someone venting r22 is because i have to reclaim it.

Quite right and if we all behave as you the playing field become level and we all win.

[Gary]

Same with murder theft and everyother crime. This is what civilisation is based on.

Civilization is based upon laws which help us to defend ourselves against those who threaten our life, liberty and property. Who defends us against lawmakers who threaten our life, liberty and property? Certainly not you, the dictator's accomplice.

[thebigcheese]

gary i take it you dont like the fgas then

[Gary]

gary i take it you dont like the fgas then

I don't like the entire environmentalist movement. The inmates are running the asylum, with a little help from their accomplices to encourage them and further the insanity.

If nobody objects then it is going to get much worse.

[multisync]

gary i take it you dont like the fgas then

I honestly don't believe he has a clue what these laws are about, he's sitting with his tinfoil hat on in the blazin sun ranting about consipricy plus a few of his amusing early childhood days of slavery, burning witches and such stuff. (it was obviously tough for him back then...)

[Gary]

Slavery was once the law, complete with informants and severe punishments. And it had popular support. Now the laws are just the opposite.

Was slavery right then, but wrong now? Or was slavery always wrong?

Should laws be obeyed when they are just plain wrong?... just because "it's the law"?

Should we all become informants just because "it's the law"?

[Gary]

I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to believe, nor spreading the word far and wide, so long as they are not forcing their beliefs on others.

As soon as some idiot says, "Let's pass a law", thus inviting the participation of the low life, bottom feeding, scum of the earth, dregs of humanity, scumbag politicians, then the belief system has crossed the line and poses a very real (not theoretical) danger to the rest of us.

[jdunc2301]

I havent checked this post for a few days!
Checking it out sat in the rain and theres talk of dictators and all sorts.


All i wanted to know, was what people thought of a suspected Engineer venting!

Its obvious that someone has got a bee in his bonnet and does'nt agree with 'certain' laws and the 'creators' of these laws.
Myself? I will carry on practising what i was taught and what the laws dictate i should do.

If the laws change and do not stipulate reclaiming etc, i will be the first to ditch it, afterall it can be a pain!
But until then its law... Its good practice and i honestly believe it sets engineers apart, i look forward to the day that someone is caught, and prosecuted.
That will be the only way to prevent these bad practices!

F gas regulations on leak checking will NOT be adhered to by smaller customers until... One of the big firms gets a slap in the face for it, if Tesco Asda M&S received
A large fine which would be reflected on the news, smaller customers and operators will adhere to the law.

Can this post be closed as its just a Mess! And quite dissapointing at how patronising the answers and posts have become.

[multisync]

I havent checked this post for a few days!
Checking it out sat in the rain and theres talk of dictators and all sorts.


All i wanted to know, was what people thought of a suspected Engineer venting!

Its obvious that someone has got a bee in his bonnet and does'nt agree with 'certain' laws and the 'creators' of these laws.
Myself? I will carry on practising what i was taught and what the laws dictate i should do.

If the laws change and do not stipulate reclaiming etc, i will be the first to ditch it, afterall it can be a pain!
But until then its law... Its good practice and i honestly believe it sets engineers apart, i look forward to the day that someone is caught, and prosecuted.
That will be the only way to prevent these bad practices!

F gas regulations on leak checking will NOT be adhered to by smaller customers until... One of the big firms gets a slap in the face for it, if Tesco Asda M&S received
A large fine which would be reflected on the news, smaller customers and operators will adhere to the law.

Can this post be closed as its just a Mess! And quite dissapointing at how patronising the answers and posts have become.

Before you go can I just say 'fair play'

You are the future of this industry and I wish you great success

[Gary]

Before you go can I just say 'fair play'

You are the future of this industry and I wish you great success

The industry is moving toward easy installs and self-diagnostics... and eventually they will get it right.

Who will you inform on then?... what good will it do you?

There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

[jdunc2301]

The laws have absolutely nothing to do with quality, training, standards or image. They are about taking your money.

You would like to believe that anyone who doesn't have the governments blessing can't possibly know what they are doing, but if that were so then you would prosper cleaning up their mistakes and you wouldn't be complaining about the bodgers.

To a certain extent i agree, all of my training was work based, riding around in the van with the boss. I didn't have a NVQ college course near me!
As and when i was ready the company put me in to do certain short training courses with an approved body, this was mainly incase an accident happened at work any qualifications would hopefully show that i was competent in brazing for example.....

To be honest everytime i was on these courses i would sit with 10-15 guys aged 16-60 and i can honestly say 90% did not have a clue.... most had completed NVQ's and presumed that because they completed their training they knew their stuff!! Unfortunately they didn't. But they still passed the courses, the course was made to pass.
When i say they didn't know their stuff it was very obvious, the teacher would have to squeeze answers from them and the simplest questions puzzled these guys.
So its true... having a certificate does not mean you are the dogs knackers nor does it mean you know what your doing.

HOWEVER... with the new F Gas qualification and the older safe handling certificate which covers issue's like venting refrigerants and poor practice whilst handling refrigerants.

When i attended the course to renew my ticket yet again i was shocked at how little some people knew and the technical knowledge made me really wonder how they managed day by day.
This time the engineers who didn't know their job failed! They have to retest which means they have to learn to pass the test.

If not wiping out bad practice, the tighter and harder test's and qualifications will discourage cowboys and engineers who frankly have no idea what they are doing from continuing in the industry......

Yes some engineers have no qualifications and yes it is a pain to go and get certified, surely if they are confident with their work they have nothing to worry about do they???

If your an installer or engineer that is not entirely confident with the theory and good practices of the industry, attending training courses will refresh your knowledge and make you a better engineer.
Won't it?

Many engineers on the F gas course did not know what superheat was!! (A youg guy fresh from college and an older couple of guys 50+).
Certification has its uses and it's pain in the backside side of things.

The industry is moving toward easy installs and self-diagnostics... and eventually they will get it right.

Who will you inform on then?... what good will it do you?


There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

Yeah unfortunately it is moving towards easy installs and diagnosis....more cowboys can pretend they know their stuff cant they?

I have'nt reported the firm to the police, i have reported them to the site staff (a very nice hotel)
The maintenance manager thanked us for reporting it and will look into the matter at future maintenance visits... i explained to the maintenance manager that it may have been prefectly harmless....recent re gas of the system or the bottle was pressurised with compressed air. But he needs to be aware that if the engineer is venting refrigerant to clean condensers he is breaking the law...ending in poor publicity for the customer's hotel.

There are two ways to compete: You can outrun the other guy or you can reach out and trip him. Which strategy do you subscribe to?

Believe me...i have outran everyone i have ever come across in this industry... i am young and i do not for one second think i know it all, when i dont know something i look for the answer from experienced engineers whom i trust.
Or i crack out my computer and books and learn myself.

I have on many occasion proved my worth to older more experienced engineers and customers!

Even though your a very clever guy (reading your posts) and i believe you have a tech book out, seem like a very grumpy old man, who does not want to change, anyone who believes change...like me..with regards to regulations etc has hot oil poured over them.

I THINK THIS POST SHOULD CLOSE NOW, you and multisync have had your fun and games and your obviously too different to agree!

Oh and for the record thanks multisync it's nice to have encouragement from an older engineer

[Gary]

Before I retired, I belonged to a union. The union shops had no problem competing with the non-union shops because the quality of their work really was better. Not because they held union cards, but because they provided ongoing training for their members. Training is what matters. The quality of the work is what matters.

My union didn't whine about the non-union shops or petition the government to put them out of business. They competed on quality.

But then there are unions and there are unions. Some unions just take the members money, provide no training and constantly whine about their inability to compete with the non-union bodgers. (Their definition of bodger, actually they call them scabs, is anyone who does not have a union card. Is that you?) They take the money and give nothing in return... just like the government.