REFCOM and non registered companies

[multisync]

Boss registered us not long ago. Now he wants us to note any rival company name/details we see out and about
He reckons if we signed/paid then others should too. So he is going to check them out and report them if not

Good idea or not?

[Grizzly]

Who would you report too?
Does the "F-Gas Police exist"?
Grizzly

[Andy W]

I thoery, yes, a brilliant idea, the rules must apply to everyone.

Also I wonder if there is something that we can have on the vans like the corgi / gas safe stickers etc and if Refcom will make the end users aware that you have to use Refcom registered engineers, will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

[lowcool]

as long as they dont make displaying of the sticker a law im withya andy,we have the same thing here,my van being unmarked i prefer not to advertise my trade.had company vans broken into enough times.EPA/enviroment,water,heritage etc dept are the responsible authorities in aust i believe.

[old gas bottle]

terrible idea !!! its not down to us or him to report anyone for not registering, is that what refcom are getting paid for ! i aggree it must be the same for all but dissagree with self appointed officiels,

[El Padre]

Would be very interesting to see exactly what would be done, there is some sort of local authority, I think that it is LACORS or something similar who are the "enforcers", I wonder if they would make an example of the first unregistered company found to be trading.
I agree with the f-gas card idea, REFCOM will illegedly be sending out certificates though.

[Argus]

Would be very interesting to see exactly what would be done, there is some sort of local authority, I think that it is LACORS or something similar who are the "enforcers", I wonder if they would make an example of the first unregistered company found to be trading.
I agree with the f-gas card idea, REFCOM will illegedly be sending out certificates though.

Not quite.


LACORS ( Local Authorities Coordinating Office on Regulatory Services) is an local government advisory body who, along with ENVIRO (a consultancy firm who run the F Gas Support website) advise DEFRA on F Gas matters.

According to the trade press, LACORS have gone to some lengths to deny that they are responsible for enforcement. Personally, I smell a governmental spat, so LACORS have taken their ball and gone home, so to speak.


To get the objective facts you will need to ignore all the speculation about ‘gas police’ and read the actual UK law, - full title, “Statutory Instruments 2008 No. 41 Environmental Protection. The Fluorinated Greenhouse Gases Regulations 2008”


There are three creatures in this plot:

• The Competent Authority
• The Enforcing Authority
• The Authorised persons.

We know who the competent authority is, because he is defined in the regulation in section 3; and is named as:

“The Secretary of State is the competent authority for the purposes of the 2006 Regulation in its application to—

(a) England, Wales and Scotland;
(b) offshore installations; and
(c) in relation to importation, Northern Ireland.

The Enforcing Authority is defined in the definitions, thus:

In these Regulations, “the enforcing authority” means
(a) as regards England, the Agency, the local authority, the port health authority or the Secretary of State;
(b) as regards Wales, the Agency, the local authority, the port health authority or the Welsh Ministers;
(c) as regards Scotland, the Agency, the local authority or Scottish Ministers; and
(d) as regards offshore installations, the Secretary of State.

In this context, the “Agency” is the Environment Agency.


But, we don't know who is going to dish out the dirt on site. Later, in section 21 it says:

“The enforcing authority may authorise in writing such persons (“authorised persons”) as they consider appropriate to act for the purpose of enforcing these Regulations”.

So far, we know who all the main players are and I have heard a lot of speculation and denials, but nothing about the actual appointment of any authorised persons, in other words those who will do the dirty work. As LACORS has already said, it aint them.

I hope that this helps cast a bit of light in a murky area.

As for the OP's employer wanting to 'name and shame' his rivals, it's worth noting that we all inhabit the same world..... what goes around, comes around.





.

[Karl Hofmann]

You wouldn't be able to see my bloody van for stickers... Gas Safe, OFTEC, NAPIT and now REFCON.

Coming to the conclusion that I'm supporting every Assessor, inspector and idle brain dead jobsworth in my area.

[frank]

I thoery, yes, a brilliant idea, the rules must apply to everyone.

Also I wonder if there is something that we can have on the vans like the corgi / gas safe stickers etc and if Refcom will make the end users aware that you have to use Refcom registered engineers, will be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

We've found that when you put things like this on the van, the little scroats then know you have tools inside and attempt to break in to nick 'em.

Much better to keep the van sign free.

[lowcool]

ill drink to that frank i think i might be supping ginger beer this arvo,might have one more for michael

[chillyblue]

terrible idea !!! its not down to us or him to report anyone for not registering, is that what refcom are getting paid for ! i aggree it must be the same for all but dissagree with self appointed officiels,

I know where your coming from, but not reporting someone surely makes you as bad as them.
If you witnessed a crime would you report it to the police.
Same thing, you don't need to actively track people but if you see it report it.
We have all had to pay and do the right thing to keep a good standard in the industry, so why let these scum bags flaunt the law.

CB

[multisync]

I went into CC on Sat the 4th July and bought a bottle of 134a. I asked the guy if he's been told anything about registration and he just shrugged and said "they heard a rumour but nothing has been made official".

So first day of the scheme and it's already failed...

[Clk320_Greg]

I just ordered 30KG of 134A from my local motor factors as they have a great deal on it.....

Asked what they were going to do about refcom as i would imagen none of the garages are registered....

"whats Refocm?"

Great....

[multisync]

We have been advised by REFCOM to contact the F-gas support team on

0191 874 3663

to notify them of compaines operating un registered.

Payback time -Boss can't wait!

[Quality]

[quote=Karl Hofmann;151089] Gas Safe, OFTEC, NAPIT and now REFCON. quote]

as you will well know Karl, being registered with these organisations it places obligations on you to report non registerd workers carrying out work in these areas as it is part of the terms and conditions of being registered with such organisations

[glenn1340]

Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies? Anyone remember BSI 5750 (or whatever it morphed into) a scam, for that`s what it was, to "encourage" businesses to conform to a standard of office administration, stores procedure etc. Other businesses were expected to prefer companies who had, or were working towards, 5750 This was little more than blackmail as any company who refused to pay the extortionat fees imposed by the BSI would be excluded from dealing with registered companies.
Eventually most saw the light and BS 5750 died a death as no one saw any benefit in being in a club everyone else was in.

Anyway I`ve had a crap week so far so I just needed a rant!!!

[frank]

Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies? Anyone remember BSI 5750 (or whatever it morphed into) a scam, for that`s what it was, to "encourage" businesses to conform to a standard of office administration, stores procedure etc. Other businesses were expected to prefer companies who had, or were working towards, 5750 This was little more than blackmail as any company who refused to pay the extortionat fees imposed by the BSI would be excluded from dealing with registered companies.
Eventually most saw the light and BS 5750 died a death as no one saw any benefit in being in a club everyone else was in.

Anyway I`ve had a crap week so far so I just needed a rant!!!

A similar one at the moment is SafeContractor. They are a wholly voluntary scheme, but, they are going round all the big companies/employers telling them that they can H & S 'approve' their subbies. They appear to be making headway and signing all the big companies up..

We are presently telling them to F Off after 2 years of membership as it's just a money scam.

Received a letter telling us that *Company X* will not employ us if we don't keep up our membership...yeah right.... we'll see.

[djbe]

Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies? Anyone remember BSI 5750 (or whatever it morphed into) a scam, for that`s what it was, to "encourage" businesses to conform to a standard of office administration, stores procedure etc. Other businesses were expected to prefer companies who had, or were working towards, 5750 This was little more than blackmail as any company who refused to pay the extortionat fees imposed by the BSI would be excluded from dealing with registered companies.
Eventually most saw the light and BS 5750 died a death as no one saw any benefit in being in a club everyone else was in.

Remember it well, in my early working years one of my responsibilities was that of internal auditor of BS5750, working for the quality manager of an automotive electronics company.

The one phrase that comes back to mind was "document what you do and do what you document"

Basically means you can produce any old crap, as long as it is crap produced in a consistent fashion in accordance with your crap procedures.

[djbe]

A similar one at the moment is SafeContractor. They are a wholly voluntary scheme, but, they are going round all the big companies/employers telling them that they can H & S 'approve' their subbies. They appear to be making headway and signing all the big companies up..

We are presently telling them to F Off after 2 years of membership as it's just a money scam.

Received a letter telling us that *Company X* will not employ us if we don't keep up our membership...yeah right.... we'll see.

Tell me about it, just going through renewal again. Have to to work on a certain site.

The thing that makes me laugh is that the site is less aware of a lot of their procedures than I am.

[multisync]

Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies? Anyone remember BSI 5750 (or whatever it morphed into) a scam, for that`s what it was, to "encourage" businesses to conform to a standard of office administration, stores procedure etc. Other businesses were expected to prefer companies who had, or were working towards, 5750 This was little more than blackmail as any company who refused to pay the extortionat fees imposed by the BSI would be excluded from dealing with registered companies.
Eventually most saw the light and BS 5750 died a death as no one saw any benefit in being in a club everyone else was in.

Anyway I`ve had a crap week so far so I just needed a rant!!!

Err no- it's a legal requirement...

[multisync]

A similar one at the moment is SafeContractor. They are a wholly voluntary scheme, but, they are going round all the big companies/employers telling them that they can H & S 'approve' their subbies. They appear to be making headway and signing all the big companies up..

We are presently telling them to F Off after 2 years of membership as it's just a money scam.

Received a letter telling us that *Company X* will not employ us if we don't keep up our membership...yeah right.... we'll see.

Frank, stop being a silly old fool. You're starting to sound like those stupid old plumbers who refrused to join corgi...it may be 1979 in your world but it's 2009 for the rest of us.. keep up or die..


Why mention a Voluntary H&S scheme in a thread about legal registration

[philfridge]

Not sure if anyone (the fridge police) are going to do anything if you or the company you work for is not registered. Who is going to know or do anything about it ? I personally have never been asked for certification of safe handling of refrigerants or refcom membership.

[Karl Hofmann]

Neither have I been asked for my CORGI / Gas Safe, Part P, OFTEC certificates either... They are all toothless dogs who bark but cannot bite.... Customers couldn't care less as long as the price is right.... So the Government is going to throw a fridgeman who has been doing the job since he was a kid out on to the dole just because he refuses to comply? Dream on!

My first refigerant handling certificate had no expiry date, yet the new ones do.... Why's that? Nothing has changed.. It is stuff that we all do every day so we don't forget how to handle refrgerant... As long as Joe public will continue to be able to buy refrigerant and equipment off ebay then nothing will change other than we will hand our cash over to another bunch of beurocratic numpties for no benefit or real reason... "Because it's the law" doesn't cut it with the thinking class..

[frank]

Why mention a Voluntary H&S scheme in a thread about legal registration

Did you not read the reply by Glen 1340??

"Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies?"

Sheesh...... can't even have a conversation now without upsetting someone!!

[jdunc2301]

So in conclusion.........it's all a big bag of wank!

Happy weekend guys

[multisync]

Neither have I been asked for my CORGI / Gas Safe, Part P, OFTEC certificates either... They are all toothless dogs who bark but cannot bite.... Customers couldn't care less as long as the price is right.... So the Government is going to throw a fridgeman who has been doing the job since he was a kid out on to the dole just because he refuses to comply? Dream on!

My first refigerant handling certificate had no expiry date, yet the new ones do.... Why's that? Nothing has changed.. It is stuff that we all do every day so we don't forget how to handle refrgerant... As long as Joe public will continue to be able to buy refrigerant and equipment off ebay then nothing will change other than we will hand our cash over to another bunch of beurocratic numpties for no benefit or real reason... "Because it's the law" doesn't cut it with the thinking class..

Classic response..

It appears a lot just want to moan in their pint that it's doomed to fail but reluctant to help by picking up the phone to report bad practice. Never happy unless they are miserable...

All schemes need the public's assistance. The police for example would cease to exist without the public telling them who/what/where.

I myself reported one Essex based company selling R134a on ebay. I did contact them first for their F-gas stance but they failed to respond...Let's see what Ebay have to say after their 'investigation'.
For all his faults Neil at Space is a passionate compaigner for banning self install splits from Ebay and B&Q but unless we help, nothing will change..which will give some something to moan about down the pub I suppose...

Fri 10/07/2009 07:18
Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to let us know about your concerns over this particular item.

We take reports of banned items listed on the eBay website seriously and we'll investigate your report as soon as possible - usually within 24-36 hours. If we find the item/s breach eBay's listing policies for sellers, we'll remove them from the site.

You can read our policies by copying this link into a new browser
window:

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/listing-ov.html

Please be aware that, as it's important that eBay maintains member privacy, we can't share details of the action we take. We'll only contact you again about this matter if we need to ask you for more information.

Again, thank you for your report and for helping us to keep eBay a safe, fun place to shop.


Regards,

eBay Trust and Safety

[multisync]

Did you not read the reply by Glen 1340??

"Is this just another way for agencies (governmental or otherwise) to make money out of already hard pressed companies?"

Sheesh...... can't even have a conversation now without upsetting someone!!

As I guess you saw my reply to him too.

This is the most important piece of legistration to hit the industy for many years. If you want to moan -err sorry have a conversation- about SafeContractor start a new thread. Easy peasy lemon squeezy

[lowcool]

sounds like a .....?
got it a,bible reader

[Voyager]

Classic response..
I myself reported one Essex based company selling R134a on ebay. I did contact them first for their F-gas stance but they failed to respond...Let's see what Ebay have to say after their 'investigation'.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

eBay's banning policy only applies to items eBay itself has banned. If the seller is trading legally, eBay won't do squat.

[multisync]

Don't hold your breath on that one.

eBay's banning policy only applies to items eBay itself has banned. If the seller is trading legally, eBay won't do squat.

We don't expect too much from Ebay but if we can gain the moral high ground by getting them bad press then we stand a chance.

My response to Ebay:

As you may know to buy refrigerant you have to be registered by EU law. Of course you may try to fudge it by saying it's the buyers responsibility la de da but as an international blue chip company you may feel a moral obligation to fight Global warming and want to 'do your bit' by banning the sale -whatever the legalities.

I'm sure we'll all get a better understanding of Ebay as a company from your response.

Best regards

[Karl Hofmann]

sounds like a .....?
got it a,bible reader

Does sound a little anal doesnt he..

Multi,

Ask my old man, he lived through 1930s Germany...

Betray your friends and colleagues.... Fabulous prizes to be won..

I can fully understand regulations regarding gas or electricity as their primary concern is safety... but to argue that these regulations are needed to defend us against the marketing mans wet dream that we have all learned to call global warming is total and complete bollocks..

So explain to me why I have had to pay twice for my refrigerant handling certificate? why do they only last for five years? What changes?

Do you really think that much is going to change? Are the jack booted storm troopers going to march in to every aircon supplier and shoot people who supply to the non registered?... Yeah they do that with gas parts suppliers too.... NOT!

[multisync]

Does sound a little anal doesnt he..


Multi,

Ask my old man, he lived through 1930s Germany...

Betray your friends and colleagues.... Fabulous prizes to be won..

First they came for the Gasmen, then they came for the Electricians..What point are you trying to make. It beholds everyone as good citizens to report a crime. This isn't nothing more than 'the right thing to do.' Ignoring your responsibility doesn't make you a good person.

I can fully understand regulations regarding gas or electricity as their primary concern is safety... but to argue that these regulations are needed to defend us against the marketing mans wet dream that we have all learned to call global warming is total and complete bollocks..

I don't argue from a Global warming perspective. That is irrelevant. I prefer the stance of getting rid of cowboys, bodgers, sparks and plumbers etc from our trade. More work for us at better rates.

So explain to me why I have had to pay twice for my refrigerant handling certificate? why do they only last for five years? What changes?

Not knowing your situation I can't comment. However C&G are for life CITB are 5 years. Personally I believe it should be every 5 years. Gas fitters have to have regular training. Sparks have to have just gone from 16th to 17th. . .
Our industry has changed, we no longer blow out condenser with R502,we reclaim (although some still don't have a reclaim rig!). CO2 is coming, inverters, etc etc. Again we need training and certification.Care require a specialist card to buy those refrigerants etc.

Do you really think that much is going to change? Are the jack booted storm troopers going to march in to every aircon supplier and shoot people who supply to the non registered?...

What are you arguing, first you say this is unnecessary then you suggest it won't be regulated properly.

Yeah they do that with gas parts suppliers too.... NOT!

Every wholesaler I go into I make a point of discussing their F-Gas policy with them

Some are way behind CC being the worst of the major players. Some will only sell refrigerant to registered companies, Some are compiling a complete database of companies AND their engineers and will only sell refrigerant to those on the list.

Remember Parts Center doesn't sell natural gas. However think of the power of Gas safe if you could only buy gas from a gas safe registered engineer, or an electrician who sells electricity!
We are unique is this respect, this is where the power lies.

Once the list is fully compliant it is a small step to complete control of the refrigerant chain. An inspector walks into HRP and say's

"Give me a list of you top 10 refrigerant buyers and your top 10 refrigerant returners."

So company xxx buys 300kg a year but returns 23kg. A visit is in order to find out why they don't return as much as they should..Lets go see.

"Hello I've come to inspect your refrigerant log"
Boss "Oh ****"

Then we have driven out the non registered and forcing the non compliant out too. A win win situation- but only for those playing the game.

This is only the beginning and may not materialise(?) but your attitude isn't helping. We need to band together to fight those who won't. This petty in fighting between those who do is a waste of resource.

Regulation is here and here to stay. Make it work for you by doing your bit. Otherwise sit there and moan about having to pay for courses, take time off work, extra paperwork etc, whilst others -with your 'look the other way' circumvent the regs and get away with it.

Be part of the solution not the problem which will enable the regulators to get to those who won't comply.

[Karl Hofmann]

You will comply..... Exterminate, Exterminate!

Gee I'll bet that you are a real barrel of laughs down at the wholesaler..

Regulation has started and it will not go away, we all accept this but you do sound like the kind of guy who is clutching at straws from a failing busines.

When Refcom contact all the folk that you have snitched on, all that they will do is to encourage those evil lawbreakers to get their paperwork in order and join Refcom, your competition will then be legal, Refcom will be a few quid better off and you will still be spending more time than is healthy complaining and looking for technicalities...

You are not being paranoid, the world really does have it in for you..

[philfridge]

Every wholesaler I go into I make a point of discussing their F-Gas policy with them



Be part of the solution not the problem which will enable the regulators to get to those who won't comply.

Multi is now the self appointed F GAS Darlik if you dare to have a different opinion to his you will be part of the problem and hence forth you will be exterminated

[multisync]

You will comply..... Exterminate, Exterminate!

Gee I'll bet that you are a real barrel of laughs down at the wholesaler..

Regulation has started and it will not go away, we all accept this but you do sound like the kind of guy who is clutching at straws from a failing busines.

When Refcom contact all the folk that you have snitched on, all that they will do is to encourage those evil lawbreakers to get their paperwork in order and join Refcom, your competition will then be legal, Refcom will be a few quid better off and you will still be spending more time than is healthy complaining and looking for technicalities...

You are not being paranoid, the world really does have it in for you..

I knew you would come round in the end...