Who is familiar with " Tewi & GWP "

[Magoo]

We all had "Montreal protocol " then the "Kyoto protocol ", next on the agenda is "Copenhagen " this year.

TEWI is total effective warming impact.
GWP is Global warming factor.

The refrigeration industry as such is going to be in termoil. Carbon taxes etc..

magoo

[Yuri B.]

Do the oil-industry workers, fuel stations pesonnel, gasmen and such alike are being tested and certified too - every 3 years - for handling GWP substances and being aware of TEWI (and banned from their trades for not having been)?
Should not soon driving licences be granted upon having done the test - every 3 years???

[Yuri B.]

Not granted - sold - for quite a sum.

[Bones]

I'm still waiting for the day we are taxed on consumable air we breath.

Dont get me started on the carbon tax rubbish...

[Magoo]

Yuri, you have totally missed the point.
Bones you are onto it, don't break wind, otherwise the taxman will ping you.
magoo

[Yuri B.]

Propane and butane are ones of the natural refrigerants, propane-butane mixture is one of car fuels nowadays. I know, those propanes are slightly different, but Magoo believes the difference is to such an extend that the one used as fuel has GWP 0?

[Entropie]

TEWI is the only way to have a correct view on everything although it is actually focusing only on carbon dioxide emission. Real TEWI should cover the development, design, manufacturing, operation and disposal process of a product. I suggest to include the usage of drinking water into it. The real TEWI should be mentioned on every product.

[Gary]

There is no end to environmental insanity.

[Entropie]

There is no end to environmental insanity.

I think transparency is important to decide which is the right product. I wouldn´t blame the HVAC industrie for everything, but we have to take our part to creat a sustainable world. For us this means to research on highly efficient and leakfree products.

[Magoo]

Hi Entropie.
I go along with what you are saying, as an industry we all have a responsibliity to reduce the CO2 emissions. Particually with new installations etc..
What concerns me is that existing plant operators/owners are blind to what is impending with regards to carbon taxes. Added to my concern is the fact that Governments have jumped on the band wagon as they can see huge revenue potential from the carbon taxes.
From our industry perspective, the TEWI calculation drags in, the power consumption as well, multiplied by grid supplied by coal fired generation percentage, refrigerant GWP, leak rates etc., and comes up with a magical tonnes of CO2 generated per year. That is what the carbon tax is based on at between 10 to 40 dollars a tonne per year.
Can you imagine the financial impact of plant operators with megawatt refrigeration capacity.

magoo

[Gary]

What is being created for our children and grandchildren is a world where their every move, every hour of every day is heavily regulated and dictated, subject to the whims of the environmental dictators.

A world where the official definition of freedom is the right to complain about the excesses of their governments, but not to do anything about it.

[Gary]

Hi Entropie.
I go along with what you are saying, as an industry we all have a responsibliity to reduce the CO2 emissions. Particually with new installations etc..
What concerns me is that existing plant operators/owners are blind to what is impending with regards to carbon taxes. Added to my concern is the fact that Governments have jumped on the band wagon as they can see huge revenue potential from the carbon taxes.
From our industry perspective, the TEWI calculation drags in, the power consumption as well, multiplied by grid supplied by coal fired generation percentage, refrigerant GWP, leak rates etc., and comes up with a magical tonnes of CO2 generated per year. That is what the carbon tax is based on at between 10 to 40 dollars a tonne per year.
Can you imagine the financial impact of plant operators with megawatt refrigeration capacity.

magoo

Yep... it's all about taking your money and telling you what to do.

[Gary]

Is the planet getting warmer? Apparently yes.

Did mankind cause it? No.

Can mankind do anything about it? No.

[Magoo]

Hi Gary, We concurr.
One thought is that if there so much CO2 around , why are we all not up to ears with trees and vegitation. Things like having to mow the lawns three times a week.
As a forum can someone come up with ideas to break down CO2 from the atmosphere. Someting like a "Tree ", but quicker.

magoo

[paul_h]

Well really we should be looking to the ocean for that. But we are too busy polluting it and saving the whales which eat all the organisms that consume carbon.
More carbon is absorbed by the plankton in the ocean than the trees on the land.
Stop saving whales and stop polluting the ocean and we may achieve greater good in reducing carbon than we will forcing heavily taxing HFCs. HFCs account for 3% of emmisions, placing a carbon tax on refrigerants is just going to cause small business to suffer by a huge amount, and maybe force people to cut corners to get a job done.

[gwynn jones]

We all had "Montreal protocol " then the "Kyoto protocol ", next on the agenda is "Copenhagen " this year.
TEWI is total effective warming impact.GWP is Global warming factor.
The refrigeration industry as such is going to be in termoil. Carbon taxes etc..
magoo

Oh yeah, I've just sat and passed my F gas and ODS regulations, category 1, does it make me a better engineer? I doubt it, I think it's the customers who need to be educated and I'm sure a lot of governments use it as a smokescreen and diversion to cover up the mess they are making of everything else.
There are already customers dashing around trying to stockpile r22 [put a virgin bottle in and then recover a bottle - now it's reclaimed gas, right? And I can store it, right?]
The next few years are going to be .... err... maybe the word is interesting.

[Peter_1]

Wasn't this Congres already in March ?http://www.erantis.com/events/denmar...ress/index.htm

[Magoo]

Peter_1
the UN conference is December 2009, Copenhagen.

[Magoo]

Hi Paul h,
pass the whale steak burger, needs big burger buns. I wonder if McD's will have a new option on the menu, they could see a dollar in any crisis.

[nick uk]

why are politicians so concerned about the release of carbon to the atmosphere surely thats where it originated from before it was locked in as coal oil and gas by vegitation are we not just restoring the carbon to where it came from

[Voyager]

why are politicians so concerned about the release of carbon to the atmosphere surely thats where it originated from before it was locked in as coal oil and gas by vegitation are we not just restoring the carbon to where it came from

Well, Yes.

But .......

Planet earth took millions of years to lock it away, we are unlocking it in a couple of hundred years.

The bit that p's me off is that rip-off taxes are NOT going to put it all back again !
What is that saying about horses and stable doors?

Here's a good example of how futile these laws and taxes are:-
Cambridge (UK) council want to impose a 20mph speed limit in place of 30mph. How many cars do you know that can hold 20mph in top gear? Mine certainly can't.
So that means using 3rd or even 2nd gear = maybe an extra 300/400 rpm. And do it for 50% longer. Who is going to suck all that extra carbon out of the air?

[Gary]

With one hand they point to the environment. With the other hand they pick your pocket. The environment is the diversion. It's all about picking your pocket.

[lowcool]

here here gary
heat pump water systems to me seem a good example.how much extra energy is required to make them,how much extra energy is spent for maintenance,how much extra energy is required for the manufacture of spare parts let alone compatibility and availabilty in ten years time if the vessel makes it to that age.then the poor bugger the end user who has trippled or more the cost of repairs in that time.the simpler solution would be power generation techniques in my mind anyway,but it doesnt raise revenue for the governments and wont help countries who are still lagging behind in protocols and technology

[Magoo]

There is a rather well penned book by Ian Wishart, "AIRCON", just started to read it.
CON as in a political con and tax grab, Gary this is something that you must read.
magoo