Install costs..

[r.bartlett]

Without going into a flame war how do Mitsubishi VRF V Daikin VRV installation costs compare.

Is a 3 pipe a 1/3rd more costly or does the fact that one big BS box make that more tricky and expensive

We're quoting out both and would welcome alternate views from install guy's

[al]

i normally price per indoor unit irrespective of 3 or 2 pipe, at the end of the day a 2 pipe mitsu install is quicker, but do you use more bs boxes due to distance limitations?

Although a bit more care is needed not to mix up pipework and cables on mitsu install....

alec

[r.bartlett]

i normally price per indoor unit irrespective of 3 or 2 pipe, at the end of the day a 2 pipe mitsu install is quicker, but do you use more bs boxes due to distance limitations?

Although a bit more care is needed not to mix up pipework and cables on mitsu install....

alec

I wonder if most do the old R.O.T of doubling the kit cost or indoor x 1000 etc.

The job is an office block which will be 10-13 rooms per floor
The 3 pipe will go down the corridor and refnet, BS box and into room
The 2 pipe is BS to centre of corridor and off to each room. Corridor is 20m

Condensers will be spread from the main 4th roof or some lower roofs

[al]

the R.O.T here seems to be price of kit plus 10%, and get a very very cheap subbie...

Also would you use less copper with the mitsu install, esp on the lines to condensers, i think final prices here would be the same, normally mitsu priced against hitachi, cheaper kit from hitachi but final prices normally quite close.

alec

[sumsor]

Without going into a flame war how do Mitsubishi VRF V Daikin VRV installation costs compare.

Is a 3 pipe a 1/3rd more costly or does the fact that one big BS box make that more tricky and expensive

We're quoting out both and would welcome alternate views from install guy's

Hi there,

I've done quite a few City Multi installs in shopping centres and hotels and done two big Daikin VRVs lately.
Three pipes sounds like more work first, but since you tee off your main runs with Daikin, you save multiple piperuns off your BC box in a Mitsi system. I don't think there is much of a difference.
I found the Mitsi piping easier, two pipes to the BC box and two to each unit. With Daikin you can end up with up to six different pipe sizes for a set of REFnets.
The Daikin system has got bigger pipes coming off the OU (1 3/8 + 1 5/8) compared to Mitsubishi (1 1/8 ) which take a lot more time and material to braze.
I found the piping length restrictions in a Mitsi system a lot easier to follow. Sometimes you have to turn back after a Daikin REFnet so you don't exeed you max piperun to the last unit.
Mitsi have got a pump down function (which some say is bad!) while you have to recover with Daikin.

I never had any problems with either system, would say Daikin is slightly more difficult to install, but found the Daikin back up and training heaps better here in NZ.

[r.bartlett]

the R.O.T here seems to be price of kit plus 10%, and get a very very cheap subbie...

Also would you use less copper with the mitsu install, esp on the lines to condensers, i think final prices here would be the same, normally mitsu priced against hitachi, cheaper kit from hitachi but final prices normally quite close.

alec

Is that 10% of the kit is install cost? that seems low..?

Both are with 2% so very little difference. So it's down to how much to install each version will win the job

[wardy2]

I think al means if you have your kit costs and add 10% to that amount that will be your installation costs.
I have installed both types of these systems and dont think there is much of a difference in installation costs for either one, the biggest factor is the site conditions and i find a realistic builder makes the job much easier and nowadays unfortunatly there are not many of them left.

[r.bartlett]

I think al means if you have your kit costs and add 10% to that amount that will be your installation costs.
I have installed both types of these systems and dont think there is much of a difference in installation costs for either one, the biggest factor is the site conditions and i find a realistic builder makes the job much easier and nowadays unfortunatly there are not many of them left.

Does this 10% include pipe, tray, condensate, etc? or is that purely the labour content?

[amerillove]

Though you may be looking at air conditioning units, it's easy to underestimate the importance of your air conditioning contractor. Sure, homeowners know they need to find somebody they can trust to do the job right at a reasonable cost. Many homeowners, however, fail to fully utilize their local contractors as a resource..

[wardy2]

I think you may have mis-understood me,
It was meant to read like this -
lets say kit costs £50,000
allow as a rule of thumb, kit = 50,000 now add 50,000 + 10% = 55,000
total costs 105,000, this is a very quick way but on larger jobs site variables need to be considerd ie some vrvs has real long main pipe-runs and some can be really short pipe-runs

[al]

I'd actually agree with wardy, though i was being a tad facetious!! prices here have plummetted with contractors nearly paying to put stuff in...take 10% of kit price to cover pipe etc, take daily rate of man and boy to install and then you're adding for profit, i used to allow one day per indoor, i'd be leaning towards mitsu simply to cut copper costs and less space needed in shafts.

alec

[r.bartlett]

I think you may have mis-understood me,
It was meant to read like this -
lets say kit costs £50,000
allow as a rule of thumb, kit = 50,000 now add 50,000 + 10% = 55,000
total costs 105,000, this is a very quick way but on larger jobs site variables need to be considerd ie some vrvs has real long main pipe-runs and some can be really short pipe-runs

Ah, ok so that was my first ROT =double the kit cost. Now with an extra 10%
The main run is about 50m to the corridor

[r.bartlett]

I'd actually agree with wardy, though i was being a tad facetious!! prices here have plummetted with contractors nearly paying to put stuff in...take 10% of kit price to cover pipe etc, take daily rate of man and boy to install and then you're adding for profit, i used to allow one day per indoor, i'd be leaning towards mitsu simply to cut copper costs and less space needed in shafts.

alec

The big boy's are coming down looking for the smaller jobs. Supermarket installers on 5-8% and retentions are looking at air con and thinking "I'll have some of that at 20% "

This is how a recession works and we're all on a race to the bottom. Can only get worse. I worry about those subbies who went out on their own in the past few years thinking it's an easy life and the phone never stops ringing..

[wardy2]

As an answer to your first question i think that the answer would be that if your happy with the equipment thats on offer the cheapest price gets the order.
i agree with what you are saying in your last post about subbies and life being easier but from experience there are some who feel that way but there are some who have ended up as a subbie because of the work situation with alot of companies making cut backs. It annoys me though when these companies lay off engineers on week and take them on as a subbies the next week and put them on the same jobs.

[Imp]

3 pipe for hotel type applications.

[r.bartlett]

3 pipe for hotel type applications.

Hardly sufficient information to base any decision on?

[dannycool]

Also consider that the additional gas charges on mitsi systems are generally larger.
This can also create extra expense when installing in hotels, due to EN378.

[r.bartlett]

Also consider that the additional gas charges on mitsi systems are generally larger.
This can also create extra expense when installing in hotels, due to EN378.

Indeed, this is being factored into the quotation but thanks for bringing it up

[r.bartlett]

Just to bring this up again.

We tried the old kit x 2 + 10% and we came out at 98k

Winning bid = 62k !

So there you go...

[al]

sounds like someone bought the contract, good luck to them....

[Makeit go Right]

Wow. I wouldn’t have thought you could price a 100k job with rule of thumb like that. God, all that uncertainty, until after you commission….did I make money or did I make another charity contribution? You would only get some idea near the end of the job….too risky! I would only use ROT for checking after I work it out.

It is not so hard to do:

a) Labour is easy of you have done a few systems:
Number of FCUs x time to install one (or how many can be installed in a day/wk)
Number of Condensers, time to install them, any lifting equipment/crane, base.
Number of BS/splitter boxes, how many connections
How long to run the mains and floor runs.
Any riser scaffold/diamond drilling
Commissioning and refrigerant.

b) Material costs you can rough-guess from various familiar items/prices (or ring up)
Add contingency – anything odd/uncertain (aggro builder?)
Add markup

If you do not add up these easy sums, even on a fag packet, you never know if 98k is anywhere near the real cost you would actually spend out to do the job (plus your markup). Maybe 98k would be a keen price, and highlights the £62k as a silly-silly one that you can use to trash that competitor and win the job. Or check that they are pricing a VRV scheme/daikin/mitsi. Maybe they have some cheapo kit or splits that the customer would not want?

If you do not know closely how much your markup is, you can never safely barter with a customer.

[eggs]

Just to bring this up again.

We tried the old kit x 2 + 10% and we came out at 98k

Winning bid = 62k !

So there you go...

This sounds about right to me

Kit cost £44k

I'm guessing 12ish indoors at £600 each (labour and materials)

Cost £51200

+ 25% markup = £64k

£13k for a fortnights work, how much profit do you want greedy guts?

Eggs

[eggs]

The big boy's are coming down looking for the smaller jobs. Supermarket installers on 5-8% and retentions are looking at air con and thinking "I'll have some of that at 20% "

This is how a recession works and we're all on a race to the bottom. Can only get worse. I worry about those subbies who went out on their own in the past few years thinking it's an easy life and the phone never stops ringing..

Re-reading this thread has irritated me

Some of us subbies who went off on our own over the past few years have got telephones that never stop ringing.
Trouble is is the old stalwarts like you have not realised that the A/C industry is a mature industry now and the days of silly profit margins have gone.

Loose the eye candy on reception, send the beemer back, get that useless "Project Manager" back on the tools and start earning money the proper way.
Low overheads, relentless nailing down of your suppliers and good service is the way forward........forget trying to screw your clients by trying to double your money in two weeks.........tut..tut..

Good Luck

Eggs

[yinmorrison]

Eggs ,that is assuming there are only 12 indoor which seems unlikely in view of the fact there are at least 3 floors with 10 to 13 rooms.I agree with Makeit go Right's reasoning and costing method.
Everyone to their own ways though and at the end of the day if your overheads are low you can obviously have a lower gross margin but always bear in mind return visits ,even if only something silly as you dont get paid for them and they soon cut the nett profit margin which is what we are all in this for.

[r.bartlett]

This sounds about right to me

Kit cost £44k

I'm guessing 12ish indoors at £600 each (labour and materials)

Cost £51200

+ 25% markup = £64k

£13k for a fortnights work, how much profit do you want greedy guts?


Eggs

Firstly don't guess then argue as if it's fact then insult.

22 cassette indoor units
pipe run 1 x40m 1 x 50m from bs box to outdoor unit 4m high round a warehouse.
All on tray

H&S manual
Install
commissioning
Site container
Sissor lift
Central Controller
2 days training
As is drawings
OEM

Although I agree we may be high you are now my subbie of choice

[r.bartlett]

Re-reading this thread has irritated me

Some of us subbies who went off on our own over the past few years have got telephones that never stop ringing.
Trouble is is the old stalwarts like you have not realised that the A/C industry is a mature industry now and the days of silly profit margins have gone.

Loose the eye candy on reception, send the beemer back, get that useless "Project Manager" back on the tools and start earning money the proper way.
Low overheads, relentless nailing down of your suppliers and good service is the way forward........forget trying to screw your clients by trying to double your money in two weeks.........tut..tut..

Good Luck

Eggs

Have you been drinking?

If any of this is relating to me please feel free to come down and see for yourself before running your mouth off....

[eggs]

22 cassette indoor units
pipe run 1 x40m 1 x 50m from bs box to outdoor unit 4m high round a warehouse.
All on tray

Your loacal subbie will do this L&M for £13k

Your kit cost is £44k

H&S manual
Install
commissioning
Site container
Sissor lift
Central Controller
2 days training
As is drawings
OEM

You wanted £41k for this?

No wonder you and Marco the Great went bust.

Eggs

[r.bartlett]

No wonder you and Marco the Great went bust.

Eggs

Get your facts straight idiot -I didn't go bust

[wardy2]

Eggs;
I dont know any subbies that could do 22 fan coils on VRV systems for that price !!! and i dont know what sort of job you would get if it was installed in two weeks !!!
If lets say for the whole job: 1 1/2 days per fan coil for the whole installation and £300.00 per fan coil for the materials your subbie is already loosing money, he has not even met the builder who takes 1 hour aday to sort out his hot works permits and all that crap, he then gets told no steps, no access to certain areas (more permits), hes has now got to get his task lighting sorted out because the builder only supplies lighting for walkways, your subbie is getting pretty pissed off by know.
I would say more like if the kit costs are 44k for 22 fan coil system
Kit 44k
lab/mat for installation between 20k and 22k for subbie
container/ O&m's /site visits/method statements /risk assesments /commissioning/ demos about 3 with a centralised controller/ 1st years maintenance usually now pushed on you. all these things come down to the who is suppling the kit and he like all of us have to make money some where or we just end up poor fools who work our nuts off for nothing and when the work slows down having not put anything in the pot we go down the pan.
Lets not for get the original question and that job may have gone to a cheaper bid but who knows what kit was eventually priced for and won the bid

[Mozambezi]

Well,

I known installation price difference kit+labour to kompare MHI KX6 3-pipe and City Multi 2-pipe for same building from same contractors (here was choice of 2 independent well known subs) Average difference came out MHI system was cheaper about 30% against CM. And ... VRF service tool for MHI is free of charge for everyone.
Next point is, what you can quote less if you do a. few more jobs on site, b. you do service and maitenance afterwoods. 3. Warranty... MHI gave 3 years parts and labour against CMulti 1 year labour and 5 years for parts.
My personal choice would be gas fired Sanyo GHP VRF (service, running and energy costs)

[dannycool]

Your loacal subbie will do this L&M for £13k

Your kit cost is £44k



You wanted £41k for this?

No wonder you and Marco the Great went bust.

Eggs

I tend to agree with you Eggs, 600-650 per FCU seems about right for subbies rates L+M.

All of the subbies i know are highly motivated and work on large sites regularly, so they all have CSCS, Pasma, IPAF etc and are used to the problems encountered with main contractors.
The switched on ones are sure to exclude things like Builders works, firestopping, big foots etc etc.

Anyway, picking up on whats been said ive done a quick rough calc, id have priced the job around the 73k mark @ 10%

But thats allow 6k for scissor lift and container.